SE, please make sure RDM & SAM are on par with other DPS.

Just looking back at Heavensward release, when MCH, AST and DRK were released they were all fairly... underwhelming.

DRK seemed to have a number of skills in its kit that didn't quite flow together, and was generally considered the worst of the tanks. I think a lot of people would say it probably still is, or at least is only close to matching PLD, while WAR continues to reign as king.

AST was the weakest of the healers for over a year while little minor tweaks were slowly made to try and fix it. And it wasn't until 3.4 when it got it's major buffed that it finally got in line with WHM and SCH.

Most people I've talked to still don't like MCH and consider it a worse, less useful version of BRD.

So for Stormblood, please consider making RDM and SAM actually powerful and useful so that it's fun to play the new classes. And if they end up being too strong then tweak down, rather than taking the entire expansion to get them on par with other DPS jobs.

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Originally Posted by Khyzen

Most people I've talked to still don't like MCH and consider it a worse, less useful version of BRD.

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Isn't MCH currently simming the highest right now, while BRDs are on the bottom

DRK is the defacto main tank right now. :O

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Originally Posted by Khyzen

Just looking back at Heavensward release, when MCH, AST and DRK were released they were all fairly... underwhelming.


Most people I've talked to still don't like MCH and consider it a worse, less useful version of BRD.
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I agree with you on AST and MCH. I strongly disagree with DRK. The class was powerful throughout the entire first raid tier, it just took people time to actually figure out how to maximize the new paradigm. PLD was shit tier in Gordias, and DRK continues to be the preferred tank all the way till now.

The people you talk to are probably trash tier players if they believe MCH is crap lol, after the buffs its so strong it basically rendered the casters useless for optimal DPS.

The defensive cooldowns that PLD has are arguably unnecessary as the current state of the game desires more and more dps. PLD doesn't offer much in terms of uniqueness, while DRK is actually the most well rounded tank currently. It has the potential to do more damage than PLD and even has a wider variety of defensive cooldowns. WAR has always and will probably always be the king of tank dps.

But yea, MCH was very weak at the start of heavensward. If anything, I have a feeling RDM will be very strong and SAM will struggle with the whole "save your charged katana power for an unleash, but be careful you don't die in an animation lock."

I don't know about you but as a Melee DPS I love MCH over BRD.

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Originally Posted by Khyzen

DRK seemed to have a number of skills in its kit that didn't quite flow together, and was generally considered the worst of the tanks. I think a lot of people would say it probably still is, or at least is only close to matching PLD, while WAR continues to reign as king.

AST was the weakest of the healers for over a year while little minor tweaks were slowly made to try and fix it. And it wasn't until 3.4 when it got it's major buffed that it finally got in line with WHM and SCH.

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AST was only initially slightly too weak compared to WHM and SCH. After it's first set of buffs, it was already slightly superior than WHM and SCH- just not enough to be really noticeable. You had to do the math to see it. 3.4's buffs just made AST so much more superior than SCH and WHM (people still favor SCH because of easy MP management and critical Adlo+ spread and a fairy that allows for leeway to DPS).

DRK is stronger than PLD, in terms of DPS, but has a slightly higher skill curve to learn due to MP management. Unlike PLD or WAR, it doesn't really have a self healing utility, unless you want to DA Abyssal Drain (and it's really not worth it). Also, a lot of healers still don't understand how Living Dead/ Walking Dead works to prevent the tank from being knocked out. You heal the total amount of HP; not to be confused with you heal the target to maximum HP. (DRK with 36,893 HP needs to be healed 36,893 HP before the debuff's timer runs out).

On release they were a mess but now? Lol. MCH is the highest dps in raids, AST replaced WHM & DRK replaced PLD as it is optimal for the highest raid damage.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

Lol. MCH is the highest dps in raids.

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Eh, hard to tell that, to be honestly. According to logs, BRD is still higher, but there are more people playing MCH.

When Ninja was first released, it was OP as hell and was quickly nerfed.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Eh, hard to tell that, to be honestly. According to logs, BRD is still higher, but there are more people playing MCH.

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That #1 BRD is getting 14 Balances in his highest parse on Alex Prime. That BRD is being catered to. Though most high-end parses are nothing but one DPS or Tank being catered to.

Where are you getting your facts?

MCH is so strong, that it not only made Bard+MCH viable in a raid composition, but it can easily replace a melee, aka a pure damage dealer. It even outdpses Monks frequently.

DRK is on par with PLD, but unlike PLD where they only exceed in physical Mitigation, DRK tackles physical AND magical mitigation. They also have more TP management, more aoe, more sustainability, more DPS and more raid mitigation thanks to INT down.

AST is, of course, broken to high hell.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

That #1 BRD is getting 14 Balances in his highest parse on Alex Prime. That BRD is being catered to. Though most high-end parses are nothing but one DPS or Tank being catered to.

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I never said they were good examples, 'cause FFlogs is riddled with catered to parses. My main point there being there's only 10 bards in a sample size of 100 versus machinist's 19, on top of being cherry picked posts, though I should have emphasized it more. It's like saying NIN does more DPS than a MNK because you see them more in raids.

Either or, I will emphasize it now on the subject of BRD and MCH- there's not a large enough sample size and any sources we have access to will be largely inaccurate for varying reasons.

Translation, because I fail at communicating points sometimes:
Hey, look at the top 100 DPS.
Oh hey, there's two bards at the top, out of 10 total bards in the top 100.
Oh, look, there's 19 total machinists in the top 100.
Hrng, but it's top 100, so it means cherry picking.
This isn't a good basis to determine which classes do more damage.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

That #1 BRD is getting 14 Balances in his highest parse on Alex Prime. That BRD is being catered to. Though most high-end parses are nothing but one DPS or Tank being catered to.

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To be fair, you should dump Balances onto whoever is doing the most damage. 10% of a bigger number is bigger, after all. :P So, he was likely top DPS without the boost, which is why he got that many.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

To be fair, you should dump Balances onto whoever is doing the most damage. 10% of a bigger number is bigger, after all. :P So, he was likely top DPS without the boost, which is why he got that many.

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:> I'm glad someone else mentioned what generally happens.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

When Ninja was first released, it was OP as hell and was quickly nerfed.

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People never realise just how big an impact this had on the game. Yoshi P hated doing that and was legitimately scared about pissing off fans by nerfing the new job. That's why they hold a "buff everything else over nerfing one thing" mentality, its also why the new jobs were intentionally weak at the start, because they were tuned down so that the devs could see how they were played before "fixing" them.

For everyone talking about how the three jobs are now, you do know the OP said back at Heavensward['s] release, right?

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

People never realise just how big an impact this had on the game. Yoshi P hated doing that and was legitimately scared about pissing off fans by nerfing the new job. That's why they hold a "buff everything else over nerfing one thing" mentality, its also why the new jobs were intentionally weak at the start, because they were tuned down so that the devs could see how they were played before "fixing" them.

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Nerfs make people MAD. He is justified. I used to frequent LoL boards, and man... The hate is real.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Nerfs make people MAD. He is justified. I used to frequent LoL boards, and man... The hate is real.

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Hold your butts for the angry WARs post-tank adjustments

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Hold your butts for the angry WARs post-tank adjustments

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They're not nerfing WAR. If anything they won't make them much stronger, and possibly make it so you can't stack the storm debuffs.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

When Ninja was first released, it was OP as hell and was quickly nerfed.

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I'd rather it be done this way then the other way around tbqh.

More importantly I just want it to be fun to play. MCH was such a huge bummer for me, both visually and in its style.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

They're not nerfing WAR. If anything they won't make them much stronger, and possibly make it so you can't stack the storm debuffs.

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I doubt that, they are scaling back all jobs, and WAR needs to be redesigned functionally because it is too good at too many things. The core of the issue is WAR, not PLD and DRK, and that is where the changes will be (PLD will also get changes, but that is because it isn't good at much at all)

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

I'd rather it be done this way then the other way around tbh.

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I'm with you on that one, it makes the initial patch such a slog, and I remember people literally vote abandoning dungeons if the dreaded combo of PLD/AST/BRD/MCH came up.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Eh, hard to tell that, to be honestly. According to logs, BRD is still higher, but there are more people playing MCH.

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Doesn't account for rook auto-turret with hypercharge

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

To be fair, you should dump Balances onto whoever is doing the most damage. 10% of a bigger number is bigger, after all. :P So, he was likely top DPS without the boost, which is why he got that many.

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The DRG was doing 2.1k, while he was doing 2.9k, over 14 Balances. If anything, the DRG was doing highest natural DPS, BRD's was only higher purely by Balance.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

To be fair, you should dump Balances onto whoever is doing the most damage. 10% of a bigger number is bigger, after all. :P So, he was likely top DPS without the boost, which is why he got that many.

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there are groups that do encounters with strange party setups just to rig the numbers for one player on those charts.

There will inevitably be balance issues, as there always is on release of new jobs / skills.. Especially with the battle revamp we are likely to see a shift in the balance scale. However expect these to get patched out as well as they can.. I argue that the current meta is close enough to balanced across the board - aside from PLD and WHM..

For the most part though, I personally can't fault SE too much as they manage to balance jobs fairly decently for the most part - any content can be cleared with any combination of the conventional 2 Tanks / 2 Healers / 2 Melee / 2 Ranged.. There is always going to be an optimal setup though..

This might be partly because all of the roles are quite similar on the grand scheme of things, with slight flavour differences.

Yes, new jobs will always get changes each patch after the expansion.

MCH and DRK were not weak and never been weak not even since Gordias, people just didn't know how to optimize new jobs yet.
Remember when only groups with DRK could down A4S? (This is not the case anymore).

AST on the other hand I agree, it was underwhelming.

TS, Im sure you understand, that it is very hard to balance the new classes. So, there are usually two variants
1) New classes are too OP and everyone begin to chose them, abandoning their previous classes
2) New classes are too weak

In my opinion, the second variant is better. Why? Because it is always easier to POWER, than NERF.

But of course it would be nice, if SE will catch the balance from the beginning

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Originally Posted by Averax

Isn't MCH currently simming the highest right now, while BRDs are on the bottom

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Actually, Bard and Machinist out DPS all the melee. They were both balanced against each other so frequently, they now reign king. Machinist is only favoured because it offers better utility-- buffing all physical based damage.