So -- no one truly multi-classes, right?

I'm a newish player just past 50 in my first class (I just played for the free month last year and then quit, so I only have a month of play under my belt despite having a join date of a year ago). I'm a Summoner, and plan to swap to Scholar once I max out and get to know the game well enough to trust myself to do more than DPS.

I understand that change will require paying to swap out all the permanent stat points I've been allocating level by level from INT to MND. That's fine, but it makes me think that the game's ability to level every class on a single character is really sort of pointless.

Sure, you want to level the classes for your cross-class skills, and you could have a character who was level 60 in WHM, BLM, PLD and BRD -- but that character would be a hopeless gimp, because he could only have the right base stats for one of those classes.

You can feasibly level all the jobs that have the same core stat -- BLM and SUM for example, or WHM and SCH -- but does anyone at max level actually play more than one role on the same character? Is that a pipe dream?

Or, does 100,000 GC seals become a trivial price to pay once you're maxed out and running high-level dungeons all the time, so paying to swap your stats for different roles every time you switch from one job to another is not a big deal?

Bonus stats are separate for each class.
Sch/Smn are the only jobs that have to reset stats because they both come from the Arcanist class.
(Personally I just split the stat points between Int and Mind. I don't play sch/smn in content difficult enough to care about optimizing).

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Originally Posted by Hexprone

I'm a newish player just past 50 in my first class. I'm a Summoner, and plan to swap to Scholar once I max out and get to know the game well enough to trust myself to do more than DPS.



Or, does 100,000 GC seals become a trivial price to pay once you're maxed out and running high-level dungeons all the time, so paying to swap your stats for different roles every time you switch from one job to another is not a big deal?

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Only SMN/SCH share their base stat. Every other class has seperate base stat from each other when u put all points into vit on a tank class you wont have to change it when u play dps.

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Originally Posted by Hexprone

I'm a newish player just past 50 in my first class. I'm a Summoner, and plan to swap to Scholar once I max out and get to know the game well enough to trust myself to do more than DPS.

I understand that change will require paying to swap out all the permanent stat points I've been allocating level by level from INT to MND. That's fine, but it makes me think that the game's ability to level every class on a single character is really sort of pointless.

Sure, you want to level the classes for your cross-class skills, and you could have a character who was level 60 in WHM, BLM, PLD and BRD -- but that character would be a hopeless gimp, because he could only have the right base stats for one of those classes.

You can feasibly level all the jobs that have the same core stat -- BLM and SUM for example, or WHM and SCH -- but does anyone at max level actually play more than one role on the same character? Is that a pipe dream?

Or, does 100,000 GC seals become a trivial price to pay once you're maxed out and running high-level dungeons all the time, so paying to swap your stats for different roles every time you switch from one job to another is not a big deal?

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You get points for every job and it switches as soon as you switch your job, besides SMN and SCH.

All classes/jobs have their own stat point pools. ACN/SMN/SCH is the exception and the only class/jobs that share the same stat pool because they share the same base class.

You can multi-class to a point, but each character only has 1 set of tomes to buy tome gear with and one set of weekly lockouts at max level which really limits the amount of jobs you can play at a high level. Some players get around this by leveling another character.

If it's just max level normal content where stats don't matter that much you can play as many roles as you want, they just won't be equally geared.

Also, the stat reset goes as low as a measly 250 seals so you can just carry a bunch of them on you if you want to swap between SCH and SMN stat allocations.

I main both brd and astro. I plan on adding pld to the mix. They don't use the same stats or anything like that and one obviously gets geared before the others. However I don't find it that hard to play more than one class on my main character if that's what you are getting at?

Gearing up a second or third class can take awhile. You only have so many tomes and gear drops per week from end game content. I have several classes at 60 to use a variety in roulette but only working on Monk in terms of getting the best gear.

That is only for SMN/SCH.

since they share the same class, they also share the permanent bonus attribute stats as well. It was a mistake that the developer even pointed out.

But that isn't the case for the other classes. They each get their own permanent bonus stats.

And i have been gearing up a dragoon (main), paladin, and an astro. I mainly do this for my FC, just to make sure we have all the roles covered if needed, and also to shorten queue times.

I mainly play as a dragoon, but i'll queue as a tank if i don't feel like waiting for a queue.

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Originally Posted by Hexprone

I'm a newish player just past 50 in my first class (I just played for the free month last year and then quit, so I only have a month of play under my belt despite having a join date of a year ago). I'm a Summoner, and plan to swap to Scholar once I max out and get to know the game well enough to trust myself to do more than DPS.

I understand that change will require paying to swap out all the permanent stat points I've been allocating level by level from INT to MND. That's fine, but it makes me think that the game's ability to level every class on a single character is really sort of pointless.

Sure, you want to level the classes for your cross-class skills, and you could have a character who was level 60 in WHM, BLM, PLD and BRD -- but that character would be a hopeless gimp, because he could only have the right base stats for one of those classes.

You can feasibly level all the jobs that have the same core stat -- BLM and SUM for example, or WHM and SCH -- but does anyone at max level actually play more than one role on the same character? Is that a pipe dream?

Or, does 100,000 GC seals become a trivial price to pay once you're maxed out and running high-level dungeons all the time, so paying to swap your stats for different roles every time you switch from one job to another is not a big deal?

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I have everything at cap and will maintain that through whatever expansions we get, personally. I main PLD and run BRD as my secondary. While I don't necessarily 'play' all of the jobs (mostly because gearing that many jobs to current content is almost impossible), I do find it nice that if I'm in a group that needs something specific and can't find something to cover that role but can find other roles, I can always say 'Well I can switch to that role if need-be.' It's more of a flexibly option for me that allows me to get into content runs I might not be able to get into with my main two, but I'd say it's hardly something for everyone.

As already noted, each different job/class has stat pools that are independent of the others. ACN is the only hybrid class that has two different job paths, and even the option to do both by doing all the job quests to 60.

As a SMN and SCH you're going to naturally play one more than the other. I have a 60 SCH and SMN as well. If you're a casual player you can simply gear both jobs and switch back and forth as you like. The SMN gear set will pretty much make up the difference for the base stats you respecc'ed into Mind.

If you're a min/max player you can keep a stack of Keepers Hymns handy and reset your stats every time you switch from SCH to SMN or vice versa.

I have all the jobs, and I've got them all geared enough to do basic endgame content. It's nice to be able to jump in on whatever role is needed. But as you play, you find yourself narrowing in on the jobs you prefer most, and for me it's WAR, AST, and DRG, with a side helping of very casual BRD.

Thanks to everyone for pointing out my mistake -- I've only played this class, so I didn't understand the others are different.

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

(Personally I just split the stat points between Int and Mind. I don't play sch/smn in content difficult enough to care about optimizing).

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Huh. I would love to do that but I would be scared of getting yelled at in the Duty Finder. I'm never planning to run in very hardcore company -- but even in casual contexts you tend to run into folks who get mad that you're undergeared or whatever. You don't encounter that yourself?

If I thought I could just switch freely between SUM and SCH at will, Arcanist really would be the perfect class for me.

most players that play summoner / scholar that i know (my self included) carry hymns on us to reallocate when we're on the other side of that class, that way we dont have to worry about the issues of not enough heals not enough dps crap ^^

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Originally Posted by Hexprone

Thanks to everyone for pointing out my mistake -- I've only played this class, so I didn't understand the others are different.

Huh. I would love to do that but I would be scared of getting yelled at in the Duty Finder. I'm never planning to run in very hardcore company -- but even in casual contexts you tend to run into folks who get mad that you're undergeared or whatever. You don't encounter that yourself?

If I thought I could just switch freely between SUM and SCH at will, Arcanist really would be the perfect class for me.

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No ones ever said anything to me. We're at the point now where main stats are hitting 1500 points and up and I'm 16/17 points short depending on the stat (you have 35 bonus stat points at 60). I don't think anyone but a serious min maxer could tell the difference just by looking.

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Originally Posted by Hexprone

Thanks to everyone for pointing out my mistake -- I've only played this class, so I didn't understand the others are different.



Huh. I would love to do that but I would be scared of getting yelled at in the Duty Finder. I'm never planning to run in very hardcore company -- but even in casual contexts you tend to run into folks who get mad that you're undergeared or whatever. You don't encounter that yourself?

If I thought I could just switch freely between SUM and SCH at will, Arcanist really would be the perfect class for me.

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No one can see your stat points except yourself.

I don't condone splitting them though, as it takes 5 seconds to just switch them to something else with "The Keeper's Hymn", purchaseable at your grand company for very cheap.

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

No ones ever said anything to me. We're at the point now where main stats are hitting 1500 points and up and I'm 16/17 points short depending on the stat (you have 35 bonus stat points at 60). I don't think anyone but a serious min maxer could tell the difference just by looking.

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That's really nice to hear -- and from what I understand, a skilled SCH will spend a fair amount of time on DPS anyway, so the INT isn't truly wasted.

I may end up just becoming a SCH/SUM switch hitter rather than taking the time to level another whole class.

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Originally Posted by Hexprone

. . .
Huh. I would love to do that but I would be scared of getting yelled at in the Duty Finder. I'm never planning to run in very hardcore company -- but even in casual contexts you tend to run into folks who get mad that you're undergeared or whatever. You don't encounter that yourself?

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Not many people take much note in those stats. It be very difficult to notice if you had them completely allocated wrong or not at all. You clearly come from a wow background with how scared you are of others in every content going through you with a fine tooth comb.

The only place those points might matter is early progression of the new content raid savage. You'll be doing that with a static and most likely be playing one job anyway.

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Originally Posted by Hexprone

That's really nice to hear -- and from what I understand, a skilled SCH will spend a fair amount of time on DPS anyway, so the INT isn't truly wasted.

I may end up just becoming a SCH/SUM switch hitter rather than taking the time to level another whole class.

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Healers do DPS using Cleric Stance which swaps their MND and INT. DPSing without Cleric isn't worth much later since the healer and caster gear separates and the healer stuff won't have any INT. So the few extra INT points won't help your SCH.

It's up to you whether or not it's worth swapping (as others have said, the item is cheap). From my perspective the difference is too small to worry about, but for others it may be more like "the cost is so small, why not be the best you can be?".
Don't worry about it much either way. Whatever you decide should be based on what's important to you as others are unlikely to notice. :)

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

Healers do DPS using Cleric Stance which swaps their MND and INT. DPSing without Cleric isn't worth much later since the healer and caster gear separates and the healer stuff won't have any INT. So the few extra INT points won't help your SCH.

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Emphasis on this. ^ Attempting to DPS without the CNJ cross-class skill Cleric Stance is a pure waste of time at higher levels. You can get away with it at lower levels because the values of your INT and MND are relatively close to one another, but the higher you level and the better gear you get, the more that gap increases.

And, sadly, because of Cleric Stance, your INT once again becomes completely irrelevant, because Cleric Stance allows you to use your MND in place of your INT. So, yes, INT points are still a waste when you're playing on SCH. Of course, for the reason I just posted in the previous sentence, the higher level you get the less important those 35 stat points become.

An associated danger that pretty much every healer has to deal with: Be very careful that Cleric Stance is turned off before you try healing someone, as your heals become super weak with Cleric Stance on (since you're using your pitiful INT in place of your MND).

I had everything in Mind and reallocated to Int, and there wasn't a noticeable increase in my SMN dps. So I reallocated to Mind and haven't bothered with it since. But I don't raid on SMN, I only do casual content. I've never had an issue with my SMN dps in dungeons.

What about putting all your points in INT, but then just leaving Cleric Stance on all the time (unless DPSing) when playing as a Scholar? :P

Go str for extra book smacking damage

For doing the easier level 60 stuff, like the expert roulette, 35 stat points aren't going to mean much and it'd be impossible for someone to tell. At current level gear it's something less than a 3% hit to damage (though, clearly it's a bigger hit when your ilevel is low). That's within the margin of error dungeon run-to-dungeon run for most people.

The main obstruction to really multi-classing is the gear in high level play. If you're trying to clear Alex Savage you need to focus on gear for one class first before you start branching out.

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Originally Posted by Hexprone

What about putting all your points in INT, but then just leaving Cleric Stance on all the time (unless DPSing) when playing as a Scholar? :P

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err i think u have it backwards...
as SCH, dps with cleric stance on, heal with it off...

both SCH's heal and dps are based on MND, even when u use cleric stance and swap the MND/INT, it is still technically ur MND stat.... so putting all ur bonus points to MND increases both ur heal AND dps as SCH....

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Originally Posted by Hexprone

What about putting all your points in INT, but then just leaving Cleric Stance on all the time (unless DPSing) when playing as a Scholar? :P

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Cleric will swap your INT and MND, so those 15 points would go towards MND under cleric stance.

Either way if you plan to play both jobs full INT is the way to go, the loss of MND has a very small impact on SCH heals and lower impact on SCH DPS than if you went full MND and played SMN.

The optimal would be buying many keeper's hymn and change your stats whenever you want to play the other job, but that's too much of a hassle for little gain, full INT on both smn/sch provides the least amount of dps loss, so it's superior to half int / half mnd or full mnd.

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Originally Posted by Hexprone

What about putting all your points in INT, but then just leaving Cleric Stance on all the time (unless DPSing) when playing as a Scholar? :P

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Cleric Stance comes with a 20% healing penalty on top of already wrecking your healing power from the stat switch. It also buffs your damage by 10%.

I actually did the calculations for this before HW released and then again when it did release, I'll see if I can locate that really old post, lol. As people have said before the point difference is really small. During ARR, the stats favored Scholar, so placing your points in Int, showed more benefit. In HW, the stats favor Summoner so having your points in Mind shows more benefit. It might change again for SB who knows. Or I know no one is suggesting this cause it might seem "dumb", but if you are having a hard time deciding and aren't a min/maxer, maybe place them in Piety? Both jobs benefit and you dont have to worry about swapping. Though to be honest I think it gives you like what 30 extra MP, lol, just a thought.

i think it's like 7-8 MP per 1 PIE.... so with 30 additional PIE you probably get 200-250 more MP...
u can get 1 additional ruin lol

When I started playing, I liked the concept of both classes, so I didn't put points into either. At 50, I decided I didn't actually like SMN that much, but adored SCH, so I went full MND. I'll run 60 dungeons as SMN from time to time, but keep my bonus in MND, since I raid on SCH.. Points don't matter for casual content.

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Originally Posted by Fland

err i think u have it backwards...

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Oh my gosh, I was kidding everyone. I put a smiley.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Cleric will swap your INT and MND, so those 15 points would go towards MND under cleric stance.

Either way if you plan to play both jobs full INT is the way to go, the loss of MND has a very small impact on SCH heals and lower impact on SCH DPS than if you went full MND and played SMN.

The optimal would be buying many keeper's hymn and change your stats whenever you want to play the other job, but that's too much of a hassle for little gain, full INT on both smn/sch provides the least amount of dps loss, so it's superior to half int / half mnd or full mnd.

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I don't dispute your statements here, but I was wondering about the issue of SCH/SMN allocation a while ago and the majority of what I was told was "just use seals to respec, you gimp one job too much otherwise". Is there some supporting data/math/references you can provide explaining how "all INT is the best compromise"? Thanks in advance!

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Originally Posted by Hexprone

Oh my gosh, I was kidding everyone. I put a smiley.

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Sorry you said it with such a serious face on, lol. :P

I'll main PLD and use the capped tomes on that class first. But I also keep at least a DPS (DRG) and a healer (WHM) with gear up to uncapped tomes level, just in case I end up in a group that needs something else (and I actually play the 24-man raids on DRG more often than I do on PLD). That's the extent of my multi-classing.

I had all jobs at 50 from ARR to Heavensward (leveling ROG/NIN and ACN/SMN/SCH along the way) and ended up NEVER using some of them (BLM, NIN once it got leveled, for instance), whereas unlike the crafting and gathering classes, they all had a use, whatever limited it was (repairing my own gear on the go, melding for myself or other people, etc).

Therefore, I decided that from Heavensward and on, I'd level all crafting and gathering classes, but only would keep my main and a class from each other role.

I raid with BLM and tank or heal for dailies (because queue times are way shorter).
Quite a few savage raiders can switch between roles depending on need too.

I main SCH but my second most commonly played job is SMN. I do carry around a stack of Keeper's Hymns, 250 GC seals is not that expensive--just do your guildhest roulette or turn in dungeon drop gear if you need to build up seals. I don't always swap to the appropriate stat if i'm doing content that I outgear or dosen't have strict damage checks. No one has ever yelled at me for having 35 points in INT on SCH or via versa. Honestly I don't think people would really notice for anything that is in the Duty Finder unless perhaps you are low-manning T9 or something.