Linear dungeons arent the issue

During my leveling process i found that the earlier dungeons were better designed "dungeons" despite the equally linear progression inside. Some of my favourites are Halatali, Temple of Qarn and Totorak. Lets look at the map of totorak


http://guide-source.com/files/The-Th...Coffer-Map.jpg

Notice how very linear it is. It has a clear middle, beginning and end. Yet despite this it feels less linear when played. I believe this is due to the optional route and the extra optional rooms.
Inside those rooms there arent much of interest, but they are there. They fuel the fantasy that this is a real dungeon, and not just a gauntlet of trash, boss, trash, boss, trash and then a boss.

The narrow and creepy corridors of Totorak really sets the mood with the dank floors and slimy walls.

I am aware that totorak is a modified 1.0 dungeon mind you, but i must say that i hope for more of that kind of mapstyle in 4.0 and forward. Especially looking at the optional events. (like the side rooms in qarn, they are nice albeit useless. but again, helps fuel the fantasy that is it an ancient temple with many secrets)

Details like "Bergand the brokens cell" also helps it alot, adding a new lore aspect to the dungeon. Who was bergand? why was he broken? I love these details.

Looking at a 3.+ dungeon to comparison, lets take Dullbreaker HM

http://i.imgur.com/LOIoIkT.png

This is the worst offender of them all. Its repetitive, boring and has no discernable lore just by looking at the map. Unlike Totorak there is no deviation from the given road. This is what i hope never will see the world of eorzea again. Unlike the abovementioned 2.0 dungeons i had to take the screenshot of Dullbreaker myself, as its so boring that noone could be bothered to put one online.

That is all.
Cheers

The totorak in 1.0 was even better. The final boss was different depending on what path you chose.

I also believe creativity in dungeon design has stagnated. Current design seems to focus more on creating an interesting aesthetic and ignores trying to innovate gameplay wise.

I wish they would focus a little more on gameplay innovations. Currently when you play a new dungeon, it just feels like every other dungeon with a fresh coat of paint on it.

People like linear dungeons, they just don't like that they FEEL linear. As soon as there are optional paths to take, people end up disagreeing about the route resulting in frustrations.. unless, an "optional" path is obviously better, or basically picked for you. Toto-rak is one of the most hated dungeons in the game.
I think that shortcuts are really important in dungeon design, it makes people feel smart, but people would naturally agree with the path once they know about it and are capable of taking it (aside from XP runs, but that's not an issue in end-game dungeons).

Basically, add things to jump off from/over to skip mobs, maybe a secret way to enter a different route (like having a bomb enemy use self-destruct near a bunch of rubble). Once a secret is discovered, it soon becomes meta and everyone will use it, but it still makes for more interesting gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi

The totorak in 1.0 was even better. The final boss was different depending on what path you chose.

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I really miss this.

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Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi

The totorak in 1.0 was even better. The final boss was different depending on what path you chose..

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I was going to mention this. and it's something I miss. be nice if more bosses had multiple bosses depending on routes and paths etc.

trouble is. it would require dungeons to actually be relevant content. and not dead on arrival tome grinds that they currently are. because if they weren't relevant the only routes people would ever take are the quickest ones to getthe tomes. rather than optional ones for loot.

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Originally Posted by Vulcwen

Toto-rak is one of the most hated dungeons in the game..

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That's mostly just because of that annoyingly long leadeny bit that makes you move so slow. practicly triples the time the run takesjust walking through that stuff...

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Originally Posted by Dzian

practicly triples the time the run takesjust walking through that stuff...

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And yet, Toto-rak doesn't last longer than other leveling dungeons. I've purposely been looking at the timers every time I run it via roulette. And even if I point it out, the main retort is:"It still 'feels' slow."

That said, I'm pretty sure people don't mind the optional rooms in Toto-Rak right now - nobody but newbies even looks their way. Same goes for Sastasha or Quarn.

Putting relevant loot behind optional rooms/paths is somewhat dangerous in a duty finder environment. There's nothing stopping a person from just leaving the duty once they got their loot and likewise, nothing stopping them from leaving if the group takes a path that doesn't lead to their desired loot. Then a new healer joins, sees you took the path that doesn't lead to the hot healer piece and leaves again. And the classic:"Either you go and kill that optional boss or you can kick me and wait for a new tank." Been through that in several games, I'm glad it's not a thing here.
You can catch a glimpse of that behaviour during the early days of new 24 man raids, where it's common that people leave after the boss that dropped the item they wanted. Tends to subside once nobody cares about the loot anymore however.

You need to put the main incentive on duty completion, else you're just asking for trouble.

Totorak feels longer than the other dungeons because the actual trash between the bosses are the same four mobs repeated, with two of the bosses essentiall being copied of each other. The slime bit at the end does no favours either to the overall runtime.

This may sound weird but here it goes.
I want the illusion of choice

It is very true that if relevant gear and rewards are off the given track that that may cause trouble in the average DF groups. A full labyrinth is bad for random groups. What i want is a less linear look to the dungeons. That they all go from A to B to C is no biggie for me. Toto excels in giving this illusion by giving two paths. the amount of monsters on those paths are the same, but the fact that i get to choose whether to go right or left makes the difference. Or whether i take the detour by the start to the left or wait and take the other detour by the second boss to the left. The fact that i get a choice in what i do helps it seem less monotonous over time. Despite it essentially being a worthless choice.

Just a shame they put boring fights in the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Vulcwen

Once a secret is discovered, it soon becomes meta and everyone will use it, but it still makes for more interesting gameplay.

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You mean like the jump in Haukke Manor? Or sneaking past enemies in Qarn HM?
Because then you get the problem where newer players won't know it. I've seen people kicked for this.
Whenever you introduce, by design och not, any selection into a multiplayer game which affects more than the selector, you'll have people complaining. That's not an issue with the game, but:
I'm going to claim that optional side areas are a much, much better idea than shortcuts. They just create unneeded frustration for minuscule gain.
Mark Brown made a great video on how dungeons in Zelda: The Wind Waker feel nonlinear while remaining perfectly linear. Check if out if you're into game design. (Compare Fractal Continuum, or CT re: returning to earlier parts of the dungeon)

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Putting relevant loot behind optional rooms/paths is somewhat dangerous in a duty finder environment. There's nothing stopping a person from just leaving the duty once they got their loot and likewise, nothing stopping them from leaving if the group takes a path that doesn't lead to their desired loot. Then a new healer joins, sees you took the path that doesn't lead to the hot healer piece and leaves again. And the classic:"Either you go and kill that optional boss or you can kick me and wait for a new tank." Been through that in several games, I'm glad it's not a thing here.

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You may misunderstand. Back in 1.0 you took different routes to different bosses. They weren't optional bosses, each boss ended the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

You may misunderstand. Back in 1.0 you took different routes to different bosses. They weren't optional bosses, each boss ended the dungeon.

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Did the different routes grant different loot? If thats the case then i wouldnt want that to happen ever. In the DF environment that would only cause grief.

"I wanna go route A cause i need pants!"
"No i wanna go route B cause its the fastest"
"What about route C guys? It gives us the shoes i've been looking for"

Most people are selfish when paired with strangers. Only f the Duty Finder was abolished or a new type of "Hardcore Dungeon" (by hardcore i dont necessarily mean harder just smarter) was introduced i dont see that happening, even if it does sound amazingly good and RPG'ish.

I think the linear dungeons removed players who actually NEED XP from experiencing griefing if they ask for a "full clear". Imagine a DPS sitting in queue for 25+m and getting a track star tank who wants in and out?

At least with the linear dungeons, all the XP that is available in the instance can't be avoided...for the most part. God forbid you wake a slumbering Dragon in The Aery and it's like you just ruined some orphan's first Christmas...

The only thing I don't like about Totorak is the fact that it's so long. That or ARR spoiled me with its multiple loading screens. But I remember to this day thinking that Totorak was the longest dungeon I had experienced up to that point and that feeling hasn't changed.

Problem is, FFXIV won't make any changes that deviate too much from the safety it set with its theme park model. They may risk losing customers by doing so. I would like to see more dungeons where we get to actually explore, not just run through a corridor killing mob after mob, like an arcade. I just recently finished HW and that exploration thing we unlock in front of the airship landing in Ishgard seems just like what I just described, but I can't say for myself as I haven't played through it yet.

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Originally Posted by Enur

Did the different routes grant different loot? If thats the case then i wouldnt want that to happen ever. In the DF environment that would only cause grief.

"I wanna go route A cause i need pants!"
"No i wanna go route B cause its the fastest"
"What about route C guys? It gives us the shoes i've been looking for"

Most people are selfish when paired with strangers. Only f the Duty Finder was abolished or a new type of "Hardcore Dungeon" (by hardcore i dont necessarily mean harder just smarter) was introduced i dont see that happening, even if it does sound amazingly good and RPG'ish.

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Yup they did. different end bosses had different loot.

It was a cool a system but it would not work in a duty finder environment. Because on the one hand to be successful the loot and rewards would have to be relevant drops. and this wouldn't work in duty finder because like you said everyone you got matched with would want to fight a different boss to get the drops they want.

on the other hand if the loot and rewards weren't relevant then the only route players would take would be the fastest one because all they'd be interested in is the daily tomes reward and thus the optional routes and bosses would never see the light of day..

the third problem is that if this type content existed outside of a duty finder environment with any degree of relevant rewards and gear then a lot of people would be making the same requests they are for palace of the dead and demanding it be opened up in the duty finder even though it would never work for previously mentioned reasons..

it's why you don't really see structured end game enviroments anymore. because its all built around duty finder. and as palace of the dead shows with 101-200 any content that actually requires making a team for players to do. people complain about because they can't just duty finder it. and when people do try and make groups for it they try to marathon the whole thing in one session often requiring best part of a full day only to then say it's inaccessible because players don't want to commit that kind of time in one session. it's kind of the same with savage statics where players expect everyone to be there 5 nights a week. and wonder why people say sod that...

so if you had an end game environment where you had to actually work as a team and clear entire areas kill bosses and built up a set of items to unlock a god fight or something it wouldn't work in duty finder. If you played XI ever. Temenos and Appollyon were 2 of the best endgame activiites around for a long time. but you'd never have that kind of system work in a duty finder.

it's a real shame. especially as players have been asking for this kind of structured content designed around fcs and teamwork since before beta. something that actually means fcs are more than just chat channels.

Been my wish for the longest time that this game actually had structured content designed around fcs and groups of players. dungeons with optional routes and multiple bosses depending on the routes you take or structured end game that isn't just queue into one instanced battle then queue into the next..

POTD 101-200 is about as close as the game has come in that regard yet though.