Remember When Tanks Asked Before Large Pulls?

This used to be a thing, but now I don't see it anymore. How come?

Used to be maybe in Vanilla WoW.

Most frequented dungeons are fairly simple for many players and so they go in with the mentality of wanting to finish them as quickly and as efficiently as possible. In something like Xelphatol or Gubal (Hard) that translates to 'big pulls' more often than not since a lot of people have the sort of gear that makes such acts fairly trivial.

I remember when dungeons used to be fun. Then 2.2 came and they became snore fest, starting this trend of making large pulls because "why even, they're so easy!"

R.I.P. Pharos, Copperbell and Haukke manor. Best and only good dungeons ever created.

Still happen in my server

Because dungeons are too easy and offer no challenges? Pulling the maximum amount of mobs finishes the dungeon quicker before everyone falls asleep.

Sometimes when you don't pull big enough, the dps (or sometimes the healer) will run off and bring more mobs. Its tough to know how much the group wants.

- Most of the time, tanks will check healers gear and whether it is their first time or not.
- Some tanks can handle themselves well in large pulls by using the right CDs to make it easy on healers.
- Dungeons are easy to heal in general.

If you don't want a large pull just ask the tank to pull less.

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

I remember when dungeons used to be fun. Then 2.2 came and they became snore fest, starting this trend of making large pulls because "why even, they're so easy!"

R.I.P. Pharos, Copperbell and Haukke manor. Best and only good dungeons ever created.

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The Vault says hi.

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Originally Posted by Katana190

The Vault says hi.

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The vault is an exception to the rule rather than a counterargument, it is also not in either the 60 roulette or expert roulette, which is what I assume the OP is running (if not, the roulettes are where this kind of behavior would happen, as nobody is learning anymore).

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

This used to be a thing, but now I don't see it anymore. How come?

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When I decided to tank! Just as well because it was the world's worst AST. I offered some advice as I'm lower geared on mine and managed to heal large pulls fine with good cooldown management and got my head bitten off. Apparently they've been playing since the start.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

Because if you aren't able to keep up with today's large pulls, you are literally AFK.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

Because dungeons are too easy and offer no challenges? Pulling the maximum amount of mobs finishes the dungeon quicker before everyone falls asleep.

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There's no point in large pulls if your group doesn't have the aoe capacity. All it does is prevents the healer from doing some damage because the tank needs constant healing for long periods due to lack of aoe.

MMO players are in general sheep and have no idea why they do stuff just that everyone else does it so that's how it must be done.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

Because if you aren't able to keep up with today's large pulls, you are literally AFK.

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Or maybe I'm casting protect. It gets super annoying when a tank runs off, and then I have to cast it again.

Here we go again.

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Originally Posted by Katana190

The Vault says hi.

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Man, WTB Vault HM that actually keeps the "hard" factor of the leveling version. Maybe even more difficult.

Nowadays if you do a small pull people will complain. And its really rare for the DF to match you up with no range dps. Lately I have been getting 2 range dps in my runs, just the other day I got 2 SMN. In Expert roulette these particular 2 dungeons scream big pulls, no questions asked.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

There's no point in large pulls if your group doesn't have the aoe capacity. All it does is prevents the healer from doing some damage because the tank needs constant healing for long periods due to lack of aoe.

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The Healer has enough AoE to make it worth it. Unless of course, this is an afk heal only healer.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Or maybe I'm casting protect. It gets super annoying when a tank runs off, and then I have to cast it again.

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Swiftcast is a thing.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

The Healer has enough AoE to make it worth it. Unless of course, this is an afk heal only healer.


Swiftcast is a thing.

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I'm not going to waste my swiftcast on a spell that doesn't take very long to cast. It should be saved for raises, in the event that a party member dies.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

I'm not going to waste my swiftcast on a spell that doesn't take very long to cast. It should be saved for raises, in the event that a party member dies.

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I think you need to take a seat over there. How are you feeling? Would you like some tea?

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

There's no point in large pulls if your group doesn't have the aoe capacity. All it does is prevents the healer from doing some damage because the tank needs constant healing for long periods due to lack of aoe.

MMO players are in general sheep and have no idea why they do stuff just that everyone else does it so that's how it must be done.

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Nearly every set up has suffecient damage to make large pulls better than "stop and go" for every group of enemies. If damage is not good enough or the tank is taking too much damage, then they aren't making proper use of skills and abilities. Do you have to pull the whole dungeon? No. But 3 monsters at a time is a snoozefest at 60.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

I'm not going to waste my swiftcast on a spell that doesn't take very long to cast. It should be saved for raises, in the event that a party member dies.

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What dungeon are you doing that requires a swiftcast for raise 1 minute after the start? If it is that soon they are better off returning to the entrance without weakness lol

Extreme dungeons (with hard-hitting trash and boss mechanics that matter) anyone? :)

--Erim Nelhah

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Originally Posted by Lufir

What dungeon are you doing that requires a swiftcast for raise 1 minute after the start? If it is that soon they are better off returning to the entrance without weakness lol

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Does it matter? Sometimes people make mistakes, and they die. I feel like it's important to always stay ready.

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Originally Posted by Erim-Nelhah

Extreme dungeons (with hard-hitting trash and boss mechanics that matter) anyone? :)

--Erim Nelhah

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So basically, every fight is like a primal that takes a while to beat. Yeah no.

I wouldn't mind if the trash was reduced and we had an extra boss. Reduce the time spent designing irrelevant mobs and give us something extra to keep us awake.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Does it matter? Sometimes people make mistakes, and they die. I feel like it's important to always stay ready.

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It does. <.<

Because if no one is dying in the first minute you can just use that protect. And quite honestly I'm not sure what tanks you are getting that run off so fast that they aren't getting a cast as fast as Protect. Stoneskin II I can see that.

Also, to die in the first minute of a dungeon.. You have to:

A: Not be able to heal the tank during a pull so he/she dies.
B: You try to die on purpose. Which will take effort.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

I wouldn't mind if the trash was reduced and we had an extra boss. Reduce the time spent designing irrelevant mobs and give us something extra to keep us awake.

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Or just a lot more trials and a lot less dungeons to complete. Dungeons make me sleepy anyways.. I enjoy them sometimes but in most its hard to hold my eye lids up.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

It does. <.<

Because if no one is dying in the first minute you can just use that protect. And quite honestly I'm not sure what tanks you are getting that run off so fast that they aren't getting a cast as fast as Protect. Stoneskin II I can see that.

Also, to die in the first minute of a dungeon.. You have to:

A: Not be able to heal the tank during a pull so he/she dies.
B: You try to die on purpose. Which will take effort.

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Dont forget the occasional ninja that wants to pull the entire first room and bring it to the tank.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

I'm not going to waste my swiftcast on a spell that doesn't take very long to cast. It should be saved for raises, in the event that a party member dies.

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Dude as SCH I even use swiftcast everytime I use longtime skill like Shadow Flare, Summon Pet (If died or change pet), or even Adloquium when tank running.

Also... died at first minute? >_>

Another one of these posts, by this guy? Nothing to see here, folks. Bad healer is bad.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

This used to be a thing, but now I don't see it anymore. How come?

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How come? Maybe because some level/gear capped players assumes wrongly that every other players is the same at them, while there is new, returning and unexperienced (from a dungeon perspective or from doing big pulls) and minimum geared players in the Duty Roulette.

When I returned to the game a bit more than 2 months ago from a more than 2 years break, I started catching back on completing 2 relics (the final ARR part) for my SMN and WHM and so I had to do the usual lv 4X~50 dungeons for it, and I did meet clearly higher level players who fell with me in the Duty Roulette. Once they asked if big pulls was OK. Another time the tank started with a moderate group to see how the team was reacting and then he went for big pull once he felt the group was up for it.
I did meet one tank in Aurum Vale who did not ask and started to pull big. It did not end well :p

I guess it just depends on your luck if you end up with people with a minimum social interest for the party, or just players who just want to get rid of the dungeon as fast as possible.

When I reached Heavensward duties, I did not have bad experience either as SMN or WHM but I have not done enough Heavensward duties to have a big picture of the current state of it. I've decided to take my time instead and play alt classes and stuff, and will start doing more duties when I have nothing else to do.
I'm just kind of sad from all what I read on the forum about the current healing meta because it seems it has taken a more important turn toward DPSing. While I remember before I quitted than when doing big pulls, or with some bosses (who, I clearly noticed, have been nerfed since) the tank always flirted with death and there was no time at all for dps to the exception of special encounters where some well placed Holy could do wonder.

Experts have become so easy, you have to be asleep to not handle big pulls. The sole exception can be the last stretch of mobs before the Owl boss in GGH. More than a few healers or tanks aren't ready for the amount of damage, though it's less of an issue nowadays. I wish dungeons actually required me to work towards big pulls. Sadly, we haven't seem even remotely hard dungeons since The Avery and Vault. It's pretty sad leveling content is harder than the supposedly experts. Admittedly, I won't do small pulls in Xelphatol. Call me an elitist but it would actually take less time if I left it and ate the penalty. That is how absurdly easy it is.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

So basically, every fight is like a primal that takes a while to beat. Yeah no.

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A simple middle ground would be PotD's harder floors. Those trash mobs deal upwards of 5,000-7,000 damage when tanks barely get above 20k. If you even think about pulling the entire room, they'll murder you in seconds. If you design the mobs to be like glass cannons, it keeps things interesting without needlessly bogging down the run. Add some varying elements like patrols, mobs DPS need to single target ASAP, the possibility they can break away from the aggro table and you have dungeons that might actually be a bit memorable.

Simply put, I should have to actually use my tank cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

I'm not going to waste my swiftcast on a spell that doesn't take very long to cast. It should be saved for raises, in the event that a party member dies.

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Saving CDs for emergencies is usually a bad thing. Especially short 60s ones like Swiftcast, Tetra, Aetherflow(incl. the 3 stacks, i.e. sitting on '6' stacks for emergencies), Divine Seal, etc..

I rather use those 15x in a dungeon than once in 15 dungeons. :3

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Originally Posted by Lufir

What dungeon are you doing that requires a swiftcast for raise 1 minute after the start?

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Originally Posted by Rennies

People need raises in the first minute of a dungeon? Really?

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https://65.media.tumblr.com/61ef9c4a...sa7c5b_540.png

Never forget.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

https://65.media.tumblr.com/61ef9c4a...sa7c5b_540.png

Never forget.

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Well, since the most dangerous place there is the very first room (and also talking about the first minute) I don't see the point in rezzing someone with weakness there, anyway.
If a tank dies, losing a GCD to rezz him only results in a dead healer/dps then anyway, and tank won't get hate (beside of one mob) anyway, cause no tp/mp. ^^

The last thing I need fighting 4 mobs with 2dps+heal is a tank with weakness and neither emnity nor protect or ressources.


Also: Do other people hate those players waiting for a rezz after a bossfight (with new shortcut), too?

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Originally Posted by Chocolys

I'm just kind of sad from all what I read on the forum about the current healing meta because it seems it has taken a more important turn toward DPSing. While I remember before I quitted than when doing big pulls, or with some bosses (who, I clearly noticed, have been nerfed since) the tank always flirted with death and there was no time at all for dps to the exception of special encounters where some well placed Holy could do wonder.

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You're creating your own memories. DPS has always been a part of healer meta in this game: healers did DPS from Sastasha through the whole Coil. Holy burn was an essential part of speed running Wanderer's Palace. Even in 1.0 healers were doing DPS in dungeons and boss fights (WHM Moogle burn was a thing, for example).

I remember when endgame dungeons were actually hard enough to care what you pull.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

https://65.media.tumblr.com/61ef9c4a...sa7c5b_540.png

Never forget.

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Again, just release and run back. Especially in Aurum Vale's first room lol. No reason to raise that early on so close to the entrance and gimp your stats to weakness.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

Swiftcast is a thing.

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Swift cast on anything other than Holy, Shadow flare, Gravity, or a Raise is a waste that would've been better served elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Chocolys

From what I read on the forum, it seems healer now spent more time in Cleric stance than not and I even hear people saying some Tank dont even heals anymore in some dungeons.

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Yup, that's my gripe as well. Nowadays healers get told off if they spend less than 90% of their time in cleric stance, going off what I've seen in game.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Your creating your own memories. DPS has always been a part of healer meta in this game: healers did DPS from Sastasha through the whole Coil. Holy burn was an essential part of speed running Wanderer's Palace. Even in 1.0 healers were doing DPS in dungeons and boss fights (WHM Moogle burn was a thing, for example).

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I never said I was not doing any DPS. And Wanderer palace was exactly the kind on special encounters I mentioned, where I was using Holy.

What I said was that during big pulls, I had not lot of time to DPS. And the overally I did not spend more time in Cleric Stance, than time healing.

For example when Brayflox HM was just released (I quitted the game shortly after that), and we were doing big pull in it, I had no time be half healing, half DPSing, because I was using about every healing skill without any pause to keep the tank alive. With luck I could place few Holies once the herd was thinned enough and the tank could substain the lesser incoming damage. (Or earlier if there was really good DPS.)

And during boss fights in various random matched group duties (which is what this thread is about since the issue is about "asking for big pull" which you should already know if you're in a premade group), I had a lot of healing to do, for example the simple AK wall boss (before it was nerfed), with pug standing sometimes in purple aoe and then the 2 bees, so lot of esunas and heals. Most of my time was not spent in cleric stance.

I remember doing lot of heals even in a "simple dungeons" like Castrum simply because otherwise just by the time he would take me to go into cleric stance and casting some attack, one the pug would have been standing at a bad place and died instantly if I did not keep him at 100% in the first place. (and it was not unusual for the second healer to just be DPS happy without caring about the rest of the party xD)

From what I read on the forum, it seems healer now spent more time in Cleric stance than not and I even hear people saying some Tank can survive without heals in some dungeons. So that has clearly changed because before I quitted I don't know any dungeon where the tank could pull stuff and survive without any kind of healer.

Also when I read a SCH can remain in CS and just let his fairy do the healing, my heart ache. If it has reached such point, let s just remove the Healing class, and give a fairy to the tank. xD

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

This used to be a thing, but now I don't see it anymore. How come?

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Should I as a DPS ask to use group AoE damage? Probably not. A Tank really doesn't need to ask whether or not they should full pull, as aggro gain is their only job. A healer also shouldn't need to ask before AoE healing. These are extreme basics of the game that is taught via Hall of the Novice, now if a healer can't heal through or a tank isn't geared to allow pulls then that is a different discussion.