I tried to make a post here, but apparently I've gone way over the character limit. I've instead posted it on the Lodestone blog system for anyone who would like to read it in its entirety. However I will leave a shorter summarized post here as well.
On my server, we have a severely abusive mentor who seems to get away with everything they do. It's quite upsetting as someone who has experienced threats from this person firsthand and seemingly had them dismissed by the GMs. Not to say they did outright dismiss my concerns, as I understand what they can do is limited.
It's frustrating that we can't do anything to keep this person at bay and that they still get to do as they please with what seems to be no consequences at all.
If you read my blog post, I greatly appreciate it. If anyone has a similar experience to share, I would appreciate hearing about your experiences as well.
Thank you.
Novice Network Woes
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12-20-2016, 12:31 PMmazeticNovice Network Woes
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12-20-2016, 03:52 PMJetstream_Fox
It's funny, we just had a forum on how the Network should be monitored, basically half the players who visit the website believe the Network should be grounds for players to discuss what they want how they want, in hopes of establishing friendships, and the other half believed the Network should be used for training purposes only and be monitored by mentors to ensure a comfortable learning environment.
Even in that forum the OP contacted a GM and got a half thought out reply, that the Network is like every other channel. Which we know it isn't due to the restrictions to join the channel as a mentor.
Yet here we are, the similarities between your post and the old one are one in the same, and people still don't have any idea on what constitutes as acceptable communication in the Network. -
12-20-2016, 05:17 PMmazetic
That's rather disheartening. I'd hope that if this sort of issue was brought up, they could give a more solid, definitive response. Clearly Novice Network isn't just a linkshell or something. There should be more solid rules for it than that.
Thank you for your response. I appreciate it a lot. -
12-20-2016, 05:32 PMWindseraph
This is unfortunate, I'd say your best bet is to simply blacklist them and hope others do the same if they find them unbearable /shrug
Oh and you can bypass the character limit by editing your original post, yeah it's dumb xD -
12-20-2016, 05:35 PMmazetic
I've considered it. But I'm unsure if that would keep them from kicking me from Novice Network whenever they so please. I've apparently upset them quite greatly and I'm "on their list."
Also, that is quite a strange caveat. I'll keep that in mind if I make a long post in the future. Thank you. -
12-20-2016, 05:36 PMFrowny
Jet nailed it.
Basically, SE doesn't know what they want out of it. They tell us expectations, but GMs say those don't apply as it is a general chat. Mentors also aren't really punished for being jerks.
I personally avoid the NN for these very reasons. -
12-20-2016, 06:12 PMChocolys
I believe the topic Jetstream_Fox mentioned is this one: Official Response Requested Regarding Allowed Topics in Novice Network (and I'm not gonna repeat what I already said there)
Tip: You can use more than 1000 characterd per message on the forum, you just need to post something short and then edit it with your 1000+ characters. -
12-20-2016, 06:25 PMBourne_Endeavor
As someone who did support the network potential of NN. There is no excuse for someone being willful abrasive and antagonistic. The primary purpose of the NN is to help new players. I may still feel it can also benefit them to make friends and have that casual aspect, it shouldn't come at the cost of helping them improve at the game itself. Sadly, Jet and Frowny summed it up. Square really has no idea what they actually want out of the NN and just assume it'll function the same as it does in Japan.
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12-20-2016, 07:05 PMmazetic
I have read through the post linked, and while I found it an interesting read, it is not quite what I'm talking about here. We're not having an issue with casual discussions, and no one's being offended and rebuffed or anything. A single individual is, in their own words, attempting to "tame" the mentors of my server's novice network because they feel they're being mistreated. Despite numerous reports of their abusive language toward others and threats toward dissenters of their opinions (including kicking people for disagreeing with a comment they made), they're being enabled repeatedly by GMs and being allowed to run rampant making NN a veritable snakepit when they're around.
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12-20-2016, 07:17 PMMeeka19
You got a comment on your blog that I agree with. You could make a linkshell with more mentors that don't want to deal with the person and invite new players to it. This has been done before according to a post I read and was successful, so it's not a far fetched idea that newbyes would want to join.
You got me curious though, what exactly happened? Is it allowed on forums to post pics with names blurred out? How do we know it isn't you guys being strange if even the GM isn't approving? -
12-21-2016, 12:45 AMLineageRazor
Assuming that you are not the sole individual who believes that this person is abusive, continue to report them, and encourage other players to report as well. When one individual gets enough reports, the GMs will take action. Make sure that the individuals doing the reporting emphasize that they are not the only ones with an issue with this person, and that other players have reported them as well.
Investigating a single report of harassment takes work. The GM has to review the dialog, and make a determination whether abuse was actually occurring, or the offended party was being oversensitive, etc, etc. A GM that makes a wrong call too often in such situations can find themselves out of a job - and rather then take the risk, they err on the side of caution. But when an individual gets a LOT of reports against them, though, the chances that it's just one player with a bruised ego lashing out become much smaller.
Also, if you are a sprout, and a Mentor is repeatedly kicking you without cause, that'd be a good thing to bring up with the GM, as well. They're going to be a lot more attentive if a newer player is being harassed. If you're another Mentor, though, I could see them seeing it as a player-to-player dispute, and would be less likely to intervene. -
12-21-2016, 01:10 AMMadepossible
I think that person shouldn't be a mentor at all. Secondly I do want to help out but that ugly crown icon just didn't look good so I said: no ty, always happy to help new players but the crown icon is just..
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12-21-2016, 01:27 AMKosmos992kQuote:
Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox
Indeed. Unfortunately, many people in the world, and by extension our community, have no idea how to be respectful, civil or mature. It's become painfully obvious that to some people the word 'mature' means you get to swear, indulge in so called 'locker room' talk, and all manner of borderline aggressive and abusive speech. Ironically of course, that is immature.
It's extremely disappointing to me that SE set up the Novice Network with great ideals in place, and put rules and guidelines down, yet will not - apparently - do anything to enforce them.
Personally, I think that people should start reporting abusive mentors for their rude and insulting conduct, and or harassment of any kind. Mentors who abuse or harass others should be permanently striped of their 'title' and have any thing that came through that status revoked. Some might call that draconian, but if SE wants to send a message to ensure better self mod\eration of the Novice Network, that's what needs to happen - IMHO.
In my FC, we apply the very simple "don't be a jerk" rule, and if someone is a jerk, they get warned and asked to clean up their act. If they ignore warnings, they get booted. Fortunately, we have not had to do that in two years, and I hope that we never have to again. If people cannot obey the simple principle of "don't be a jerk", then they should bear the consequences of their behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frowny
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12-21-2016, 01:30 AMDustytome
If the person is being abusive towards someone in any chat channel, report them for harassment. Regardless of the channel, that's what it is and that's how you should report it. Don't make it about the NN at all when you report it.
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12-21-2016, 01:41 AMKosmos992kMost people have a pretty good compass as to what is right/wrong in terms of how you treat people. Suggesting that someone try to create their own alternative to the Novice Network sounds so smart, but completely ignores the issue. Honestly I think the suggestion is almost entirely unworkable, as many established players (aka Mentors) may have no spare LS slots, and even if they did, why would they join some unknown LS like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Meeka19
The issue at hand is the behavior of players that SE has given special status to. SE needs to take action to curtail any abuse of that position. Right now, in the eyes of some, mentors behaving badly, devalue all mentors and the Novice network - a lack of action and guidance from SE makes things worse, not better, because it is actually showing tacit approval of that conduct. Anytime someone feels that they have tacit approval for their conduct, from those in authority, they feel emboldened to go further. SE needs to take a hand in this and clear it up for everyone - IMHO of course. -
12-21-2016, 01:53 AMNaelynne
The mentorship position has been in desperate need of an overhaul for some time. Many players attain the status not with the intention of helping newer or less experienced players, but for want of a crown icon and the exclusive mount for mentors.
Players who are reported for offenses like harassment, sexual harassment, or otherwise should not be allowed to be mentors if the GMs find those reports are valid. There was a WHM in my Static who quit the game because two mentors -- a non pve crown and a crafter crown -- were publicly selling "sex" with him, an underage child.
It's disappointing that Square Enix's in-game GMs deem it okay to keep people like that in positions like mentorship, because it not only creates a horrible image for mentors, it also deters people from seeking their help and enjoying the game. Sometimes I wish the forum GMs and in-game GMs would swap..
Having a newer system in place to ensure the quality of mentors would ultimately be beneficial not only to mentors as a whole but to the players as well.
Until such a time, however, do not be entirely discouraged from mentorship. Without good mentors, only those who are undesirable will remain. One good mentor in a sea of sludge outshines bad experiences. Hold firm and keep at it. We'll be rooting for you. -
12-21-2016, 02:12 AMMeeka19It's not tacit approval. Her blog states that when she kicked the mentor a GM pulled them in this game's special area for gm to player talk about appropriate behavior. In other words she was warned for kicking the mentor. So if you consider the moderating team will take actions against the mentor when they literally deemed it abusive for them to have been kicked well...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmos992k
This is exactly why I concluded she can't rely on the moderating team to reach her goal, whether her statement is unbiased or not. -
12-21-2016, 04:45 AMMirielleLavandre
Hihi - I'm actually on your server ^^ Have you tried talking with the FC leader of whatever FC the person belongs to? I know that many FC leaders don't like their members making them look bad, especially if they are actively recruiting and/or like to have a decent reputation on the server (I miss the FFXI days of having a 'server reputation' where a few or one major thing could get you /blisted by the whole server...). Maybe their leader doesn't know how bad this player is making their FC look or, sadly, maybe he/she doesn't care. Worst case that person is the actual leader of their own FC. But anyways, worth a try! I know a lot of people on Faerie who just haven't signed up for the NN or Mentor for the reasons you say -- not worth it and more of a 'show off' thing rather than helping :( Sad, really, as it is a good at the core.
It makes me wonder, and I'll have to ask my JPN friends, about how the Mentor and NN is on the Japanese client. I would wager, given the cultural differences between Western and Eastern players at times, that it may be different (I didn't say better -- I'm well aware of how people can be named/shamed on 4chan and such). -
12-21-2016, 05:23 AMJetstream_FoxIt's not she can't rely on the GMs, it's more the fact the GMs view the channel as if it's a general chat channel. Which isn't the case as it has requirements for players to enter. The GMs are nearly useless in this regard since all they ever do is suggest block/report, that's all GMs can do, given their lack of actual power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meeka19
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12-21-2016, 05:24 AMmazetic
I've read through the comments left here while I was asleep. Most of you are suggesting that everyone that has problems with him report them, and we do. It doesn't seem to affect anything. The GMs don't seem to have any power to do anything about it, if they're actually investigating the numerous claims of harassment laid against them. Someone was legitimately walking another player through filing a harassment report against them in novice network yesterday after this person kicked them and was responded to with a threatening tell. They seem to somehow avoid all consequences, no matter how many times they're reported.
Also, @Mirielle, I would do that, if it were a viable option. Unfortunately, this person is the leader of their own FC. From what I had heard (which could very well be hearsay, so I take it with a grain of salt) they had incidents with former FCs where they had stolen things and have been run off. -
12-21-2016, 06:29 AMLineageRazor
Keep at it. When mentors become mentors, they are given privileges - and they are warned that abuse of those privileges can result in those privileges being revoked. I wasn't able to find a screenshot of the relevant text, but I found this in the 3.2 patch notes from when the Mentor system was introduced:
When you speak to the GM, remind them of this and ask them how, exactly, these privileges are to be revoked if GMs have no power to do so? Ask who DOES have the authority to revoke the privileges, and ask to be redirected to speak with them (a senior GM, perhaps?).Quote:
In cases of spamming or harassment, a mentor can kick another mentor or a new adventurer from the Novice Network channel. Kicked mentors cannot return for three hours, and kicked new adventurers for thirty minutes. Please be advised that, in doing so, your name, the name of the player being kicked, and the reason will be displayed to everyone on the channel.
* Customer support will be notified when a player is removed from the Novice Network. If your decision to kick a player from the channel was found to be inappropriate then you may face punishment.
* Mentor privileges may be revoked for repeated infractions.
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12-21-2016, 08:45 AMAldora
I once said on the official forums:
The thing is, every bad apple you come across in a community can give sour (after)taste to that same juice. You can't really tell it's there unless you've had a taste of it yourself. Depending on the taste, it can ruin the experience for you completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldora
If you come across such people in game, depending on their positions and their attitude, you can either ignore it or report them for it. When you as a player enlist yourself to become one of the mentors within the game, you agree to the following rules:
http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/t/dc9...9f4f549_75.png
The most important part of these rules is that the person has to show the proper attitude and be an example of player etiquette within the game. This goes beyond the notion whether or not the Novice Network can be used as for:
- Providing new adventurers with the information and help they need.
- Discussions about the game in general.
- Idle banter about anything but the game.
As long as both the new adventurers as well as the mentors behave themselves in a proper fashion, the subject within the Novice Chat shouldn't be a problem. However, if they mentor goes about berating or insulting people, then they are not an example of proper player etiquette and thus are unworthy of the title "Mentor".
A GM can very well act upon such behavior and strip the person in question of it's "Mentor" status.
Being a Mentor doesn't mean that you get to wear a shiny crown next to your name and tell people how they should play the game, while looking down upon others and berating/insulting them in the process. When i first joined the Mentor system, i noticed such behavior as well as mentors inviting RMT's into the Novice Network. Due to this, i revoked my status as a mentor, but still teach people what they can expect while running the dungeon and give them advise on how to handle certain mechanics or class/job abilities.
Sure, i don't have access to the Mentor Roulette, but i don't really care much for that. I meet new adventures during my daily routine of running roulette's and other instanced content. I still get to help them out by explaining mechanics and that's good enough for me.
So, in short; While i'm pretty much open minded when it comes to the topics people can discuss in the Novice Network Chat, rude and improper behavior should not be tolerated in any sense of the word.