Jump Potions: good or bad for new tanks/DPS/healers?

Just wondering if this will affect the performance of the majority of new players or player who just started tanking. What do you all think? Should jump Potions be implemented or should a player just learn it's job during the leveling process? I mean correct me if I'm wrong but after playing potd, I've seen a lot of bad healers, DPS, tanks that have no clue what to do. For example a warrior who keeps flashing while not in defiance Or Deliverance for that matter, or a healer just in cleric stance trying to heal the dps and complains why he/she is healing so bad. DPS that just use the wrong rotation lol I mean the point is: if jump potions are allowed, what will that mean for the new seeds of Eorzea? Will it be a circus during dungeons?

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Originally Posted by Madepossible

Just wondering

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I think with how the player base consumes content , that it really isn't going to matter the older content gets the more likely that said new players will get carried by unsyncing are speed running content. Every dungeon any trail will all be open to unsync after the next exp comes out, and thats exactly what will happen and Im sure that msq exp will prob be boasted also.

So in a sense a fair amount I'm sure will already be skipping content, once stuff becomes older its not as important to learn how it works so I think that after a few suggestions are few bad runs said bad healers are tanks will get the picture and at least learn the basics to function in a dungeon. But for harder content that will come I don't think they would have been prepared for that due to the examples of harder content before storm blood becoming irrelevant at that point and they would of never had experience practicing on harder content.

I will probably see no difference, these potions aren't even out and I run into my fair share of under-performers in DF for roulettes as is.

The people willing to pay the money for this service are usually the people who want to do some serious work though.

The regular casual will think it's a waste of money and will probably opt for regular progression.

There are exceptions to this but I am not worried, I just hope this brings in enough ROI to affect the games ROA so at the annual appropriations meeting ff will get more funds to continue developing.

I said it once and I'll say it again:

If someone cares to learn to play, they will go out of their way to learn. A jump won't change that. If someone doesn't care to learn, they won't learn regardless. A jump won't change that. So, at the end, it will change nothing.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

I said it once and I'll say it again:

If someone cares to learn to play, they will go out of their way to learn. A jump won't change that. If someone doesn't care to learn, they won't learn regardless. A jump won't change that. So, at the end, it will change nothing.

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People need to realise this. Just because someone did every Main Story Quest, a majority being faceroll difficulty, doesn't make them good at the game. And for the argument of skipping the story, if they're interested enough they can just look it up online.

Whether or not they implement this, I really feel there should be MANDATORY content that teaches you the important mechanics of your class. Like if class/job quests were required to level further and actually tested you on the abilities you've gained since the last one (or the previous/current ability post-50). As it is, a depressing number of people don't learn their jobs anyway.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Whether or not they implement this, I really feel there should be MANDATORY content that teaches you the important mechanics of your class. Like if class/job quests were required to level further and actually tested you on the abilities you've gained since the last one (or the previous/current ability post-50). As it is, a depressing number of people don't learn their jobs anyway.

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Which is why they'd implement a Hall of the Intermediate along with the Jump Potions. WoW has a similar thing where they teach you a basic rotation on a dummy and then a scripted fight that semi tests you. It could also include a version for people not using the Jump Potion like what you suggested.

I'm not 100% sure how they'll handle it since SE has historically stayed away from telling people what the 'right' rotation is for their job. We saw that happen at the start of 3.0 and everyone thought MCH was crap, but the devs said otherwise according to their data and didn't show us their numbers. It also doesn't help that reporting for differences in game style is vague enough to be used for things that you wouldn't report for.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

I'm not 100% sure how they'll handle it since SE has historically stayed away from telling people what the 'right' rotation is for their job.

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I'm picturing something like the last Hall of the Novice mission but on a slightly grander scale; where you have a computer-controlled light party that has to clear two groups of trash, and then a boss with a role-specific objective. They wouldn't have to spell out or require specific rotations, but if the objectives are something like

(Tank) Defeat the boss without any party members getting hit.
(Healer) Defeat the boss without any party members getting KOed.
(DD) Defeat the boss before time expires.

whether a tank player accomplishes the goal exclusively by enmity combos or by using expert-level damage rotations; or whether a healer just keeps everyone alive or casts offensive spells to shorten the encounter.

You will a lot more ppl having no clue their doing this is the reality.

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Originally Posted by FinalWolf

You will a lot more ppl having no clue their doing this is the reality.

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And how is that different from the current people in expert roulette or 24 man raids having no idea on what their rotation is? I've already gave the suggestion of implementing a 2nd tier of the Hall of Novice for players who use the Jump Potion. Just flat out rejecting something due to a byproduct of some people not being good (news alert, story doesn't make you a good player) is just paranoia.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

And how is that different from the current people in expert roulette or 24 man raids having no idea on what their rotation is? I've already gave the suggestion of implementing a 2nd tier of the Hall of Novice for players who use the Jump Potion. Just flat out rejecting something due to a byproduct of some people not being good (news alert, story doesn't make you a good player) is just paranoia.

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I didn't say a damn word about the story helping ppl how to play.

It, in itself, isn't bad.
It's the person that has to care enough to learn the job they decided to play.

Imo, there's no fun in playing a job you can't understand, hopefully most people who use the potions feel the same.

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Originally Posted by FinalWolf

I didn't say a damn word about the story helping ppl how to play.

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So what DOES help a player learn how to play their class? I'm talking about what the game itself teaches you.

The answer? The Hall of Novice. Even if it's lacking in certain areas and teaches all DPS like they work exactly the same, it's one of the few things in FFXIV that teaches the player. I mean, you wouldn't give a SMN the same advice you'd give a MNK, right?. All it needs is an overhaul to make sure that each DPS gets a tutorial that's relevant to their class.

Such trials would be maintaining class-specific mechanics or subtle rotation teaching. An example trial for SMN where you have to apply Bio, Bio II, and Miasma to a target and not let them fall off for a set time, or maybe a trial for MNK where they must maintain GL3 for a set time, and maybe even a trial for DRG where you must successfully use Full thrust buffed by Heavy Thrust while the enemy is under the effects by Disembowl and Chaos Thrust.

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Originally Posted by FinalWolf

I didn't say a damn word about the story helping ppl how to play.

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What are you alluding to than? your statement, like a lot of other people with your same view is fairly self-centered..."I'm going to assume that this will make MY GAME experience terrible, I will selfishly condone this item because of this assumption!"

If we are making assumptions, that's pretty toxic of you, trying to hinder someonelse's enjoyment of the game.

Well look at that, now we both look like asshats, cause that's what an assumption will do.

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Originally Posted by WeekendSoja

What are you alluding to than? your statement, like a lot of other people with your same view is fairly self-centered..."I'm going to assume that this will make MY GAME experience terrible, I will selfishly condone this item because of this assumption!"

If we are making assumptions, that's pretty toxic of you, trying to hinder someonelse's enjoyment of the game.

Well look at that, now we both look like asshats, cause that's what an assumption will do.

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People like you who can't see both sides of this jump potion is what's wrong here.

Yeah there might be some people who just know what they're doing off the bat

But there will also be a complete cluster fuck in dungeons and raids

To say that it will never happen is stupid.

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Originally Posted by FinalWolf

People like you who can't see both sides of this jump potion is what's wrong here.

Yeah there might be some people who just know what they're doing off the bat

But there will also be a complete cluster fuck in dungeons and raids

To say that it will never happen is stupid.

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I guess you just didn't want to read the first few posts of this YUGE 2 page topic...there's already crap players, for all I know you may be one of them.

As I said before, I'm used to under-performers and just deal with it, I don't do anything that isn't roulette outside my static and I literally carry scrubs in roulettes. I am predicting that I will see very little change in this aspect.

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Originally Posted by WeekendSoja

I guess you just didn't want to read the first few posts of this YUGE 2 page topic...there's already crap players, for all I know you may be one of them.

As I said before, I'm used to under-performers and just deal with it, I don't do anything that isn't roulette outside my static and I literally carry scrubs in roulettes. I am predicting that I will see very little change in this aspect.

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I did read it and my response will remain the same

Adding even more chaos to the DF isn't gonna help but like I said too late now they're already gonna add the potions so this is pointless

I don't think any sprouts out there is looking to being "Master of the server" overnight. When one buys a game, it's - at first - mostly for its lore, story, to discover the "World of Eorzea" in this case.

With this in mind, why are people expecting so many beginners to use this potion ? There would be no point.
The only use I can see for this is for veterans, with multiple accounts, sick of levelling up their third, fourth (or more) character.

Some sprouts will, but the number of them actually using the potion will be so insignificant that it's likely not gonna have any impact on the level of play whatsoever

I think it will make stuff worse because people just get overwhelmed by all the skills instead of learning how the skills work piece by piece and that will just end up in more players who don't know how their class works.

I found the "Hall of the Novice" incredibly useful at level 15 when it unlocked. I'd love for them to make more advanced versions of that. Of course, by the time it could get done, I doubt I'd need it anymore (at least I hope not!) but it still seems like a great idea. As a new player myself, the potions don't have any appeal for me even if they were already present. But at the same time, I have friends that are mildly interested in the game that I think would have less patience with some of the MSQ slog (46-50, and the 100 quests pre-HW in particular) than I have been. So if they could hop to 50 and sync up with me, it'd be a benefit to us (and to you, since we'd have a light party pre-made and you wouldn't have to deal with our struggles/flailing in DF anyway). Assuming the worst of something that isn't even going to happen for months seems like a bad idea to me.

The people most likely to be enticed by a jump potion are MMO vets. FFXIV had one of the slowest combat systems on the market. It's much easier to pick up than most MMOs. If they implement a jump potion tutorial like EVERY OTHER GAME THAT OFFERS THE OPTION, I don't see how it could make that big of an impact. There will always be bads. Playing through the MSQ won't change that.

I don't understand why people seem to keep mixing up both potions.

"yeah people are bad and will be bad even if they level jump and going through the MSQ won't change that"

Except... if you just level jump you will stil have to go through the MSQ. If you buy the MSQ potion you still need to level the old fashioned way unless you buy both.

My concern is if they jump to level 60 what kind of motivation will they have to do the <50 level dungeons or old raids? i mean if you have the newb A and the newb B. Newb A bought the potion, newb B didn't. newb B will be trying to unlock dungens the old fashioned way but newb A is now focused on getting his healer / tank to lvl 70, won't that mean that Newb B may suffer through even crappier DF queues? I mean we already have a shortage of tanks in DF... Isn't there a chance this might actually aggravate it? Won't this also scare the new people away from the game?

To be honest it's quite hard to tell how this will play out.

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Originally Posted by Schan

My concern is if they jump to level 60 what kind of motivation will they have to do the <50 level dungeons or old raids? i mean if you have the newb A and the newb B. Newb A bought the potion, newb B didn't. newb B will be trying to unlock dungens the old fashioned way but newb A is now focused on getting his healer / tank to lvl 70, won't that mean that Newb B may suffer through even crappier DF queues? I mean we already have a shortage of tanks in DF... Isn't there a chance this might actually aggravate it? Won't this also scare the new people away from the game?

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Not necessarily. Main reason why tanks/healers are not queuing is that they see no real reason to queue for various non-EX Roulettes currently. A jump potion using tank/healer is actually likely to be using the various Roulettes to speed up their leveling if they know they exist.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Not necessarily. Main reason why tanks/healers are not queuing is that they see no real reason to queue for various non-EX Roulettes currently. A jump potion using tank/healer is actually likely to be using the various Roulettes to speed up their leveling if they know they exist.

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You are talking about Expert roulette. i'm talking about leveling, main scenario, level 50 and level 60 roulettes. Like you said, there's no real reason to queue for those, leaving those who didn't buy the potions in the dust, relying on their FC / friends. So we're basically agreeing.

So, think about how 3.0 content worked. In order to get to 60 and do "end-game" stuff, you had to complete MSQ. Not necessarily a high-bar, but new tanks and healers will be culled by those dungeons. Let's be honest, while those dungeons are not really difficult for veterans, they may be for new players. I see the first few dungeons in 4.0 as being rough for getting though with "jumped" players. But, the game does a decent job of trying to get people to be adequate at their jobs.

And while a lot of people will complain about these jump potions, without them, you won't have much a game in the end. You need players. And if SE is fighting a war of attrition with the playerbase, they need to bring in fresh blood somehow. I think when it comes to players joining raid parties in 4.0 (4.1?), the chances of getting an incompetent player are going to be about equal. And when you think about it, the new players don't have to UNlearn what the vets already know. When we hit 52, we were all still sticking to our level 50 rotation that we had down. I don't know about everyone else, but it took a while to learn the ideal way to weave in these new abilities. My fingers kept twitching to go to the old rotation.

New players won't have that problem. Whatever mods are made by the devs to the battle system will seem natural to them and we'll have 10 levels to unlearn our old ways.

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

The people most likely to be enticed by a jump potion are MMO vets. FFXIV had one of the slowest combat systems on the market. It's much easier to pick up than most MMOs. If they implement a jump potion tutorial like EVERY OTHER GAME THAT OFFERS THE OPTION, I don't see how it could make that big of an impact. There will always be bads. Playing through the MSQ won't change that.

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Yeah FFXIV is so slow and so easy, thats why over 90% of all players are still not capable of playing it properly. I've played a lot of MMO's and sorry but the combat system in FFXIV is not slow and not easier than others its rather more challenging than most of the other systems if you want to play properly.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Yeah FFXIV is so slow and so easy, thats why over 90% of all players are still not capable of playing it properly. I've played a lot of MMO's and sorry but the combat system in FFXIV is not slow and not easier than others its rather more challenging than most of the other systems if you want to play properly.

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The only inherent difficulty in this game's combat system is SE's insistence that oGCD spells need animations you can't skip.

There are plenty of reasons the player base is unskilled. A difficult combat system is not one of them.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

The only inherent difficulty in this game's combat system is SE's insistence that oGCD spells need animations you can't skip.

There are plenty of reasons the player base is unskilled. A difficult combat system is not one of them.

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Other games are not harder to controll either and the timings in here are for most people harder than stuff like the B&S controlls for example.

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Originally Posted by Schan

You are talking about Expert roulette. i'm talking about leveling, main scenario, level 50 and level 60 roulettes. Like you said, there's no real reason to queue for those, leaving those who didn't buy the potions in the dust, relying on their FC / friends. So we're basically agreeing.

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I was referring to those Roulettes. The Main Story Roulette, level 50 Roulette, Leveling Roulette are primarily used for the XP they give by those in the process of leveling up various jobs/classes. Right now most players have fully leveled all classes they intend to level which predominantly removes them from the pool of players queuing those Roulettes. The jump potions are not going to completely remove leveling. The SB job jump potions are going to jump a job to level 60 leaving level 61 to 70 to be leveled up through normally and job potions for the new SB jobs will not exist. Job jump potions are not going to remove new character leveling, they will only shorten it. A story/jump potion tank/healer trying to level up as fast as possible through the last 10 levels is actually going to want to queue for each Roulette if they know they are there.

The Story skip potions in SB are going to fully unlock the Main Story Roulette, Level 50 Roulette, Level 60 Roulette, most of the Trial Roulette (only missing the new normal story trials added in SB) and most of the Leveling Roulette (only missing the SB leveling dungeons) making the Roulettes accessible to their users.

The short of it is that the jump potions may not necessarily aggravate the DF tank/healer shortage and may actually partially alleviate the problem as players will not need to fight through the MSQ to unlock them.

I think with the declining population of FFXIV, the devs are probably feeling a lot of pressure to make the game more accessible. The reality is there are a lot of people that might be interested in this game but might be intimidated or turned off by how much catching up they need to do. There are plenty of MMO players that really dislike the leveling process but really enjoy the end-game. So the calculation is that they'll gain more players and make more money than they'll lose with the jump potion. They're probably right.

As for what effect it'll have on the quality of players. It's going to lower the general quality of players but not by much. It's not like the general quality of players is that high to begin with and the jump potion might attract some people who are motivated end-game players who just didn't want to grind past the leveling and MSQ wall.

I think an important thing people aren't considering is the attachment and sense of ownership people develop throughout the course of the MSQ and leveling process and how that might inspire you to be a better player. People take criticism of their character incredibly personally and you don't reach that point unless you create a cognitive link that makes you feel personally attacked when your character is. Just look at all the people that blindly defend their job or role.

I guess you could also make the argument that paying real money to level a job means you'll feel some connection to it... but I think spending days leveling it does a better job of making you care.

"Oh no people are going to play like crap" he says as he looks at the current playerbase that mainly plays like crap.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

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Originally Posted by Schan

I don't understand why people seem to keep mixing up both potions.

... if you just level jump you will stil have to go through the MSQ. If you buy the MSQ potion you still need to level the old fashioned way unless you buy both.

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So i'm going to assume you are talking about people who buy both potions. Now let's speculate (because honestly that's all we can do):
If out of those 30ish % the majority buys both potions; you are absolutely right. It may in fact revitalize DF considering they also pick a tank/healer.

If they can only afford one / are only willing to buy one of them, you will have either a healer / tank with every dungeon and roulettes unlocked but still level 1, which means they need to level up and get the required ilvl to access them or a level 60 tank/healer with no MSQ done and they need to go around doing it.

So my concerns are:
- with the potions in place will the devs still boost the exp rewards of the roulettes to promote us running them or are they going to lean a bit more towards the distasteful side of F2P genre where because said potions are in place there's no need for such boosts which gently nudges us into grinding more to get to endgame (I think you are familiar with how most F2P games make you grind for insane ammounts of time to the point of ridiculousness if you actually play them for free - not saying they will go that far but still...)
- Most new people are not aware that roulettes give a decent chunk of exp. I am assuming they will not be considered sprouts either so it might take a while for them to figure that out (hopefully not long)
- Them having not so good experiences in DF. Yes, the community is mostly nice but we do have rotten apples here and there. From what I see in the main discussion topic they might be target for harassment. Hopefully that won't make them leave (but hey, if they do SE got the money anyway) and hopefully what's happening in that topic is just a lot of noise and nothing will actually follow through.
- Getting frustrated at mechanics. It sounds silly I know, but I've found out the game is surprisingly good at making you better at dodging without you realizing. Also dungeons introduce you to a huge amount of mechanics you see later on on raids and primals. I was helping a friend of mine with a level 10 fate and I literally dodged the marker only to stand on it again. Up until then I never noticed that AoE markers stay on the floor for a good 3 seconds + when you are low level and go down to like 0.5 seconds at level 60 (hello calofisteri).

I guess my concerns stem mostly from people. How will the community react, what kind of players will this potion attract and how will that affect the other new players who come into the game. If you're playing Satasha and a boosted tank joins you, will you feel a kinship because you're both new or will this experience leave a bad taste in your mouth because he bought jumping potions? Will that scare away potential new players? Will it bring more? (since i know people are busy. This is not highschool anymore where you could sit playing games for hours on end).

On paper it seems a good idea but like Yoshida, I worry...

Edit: these are just a few concerns that I think may fit this particular discussion. I have many more.

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Originally Posted by Schan

- with the potions in place will the devs still boost the exp rewards of the roulettes to promote us running them or are they going to lean a bit more towards the distasteful side of F2P genre where because said potions are in place there's no need for such boosts which gently nudges us into grinding more to get to endgame (I think you are familiar with how most F2P games make you grind for insane ammounts of time to the point of ridiculousness if you actually play them for free - not saying they will go that far but still...)

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One thing to remember is that the XP jump potions are set to level cap -10. This is very different than the purchased XP multipliers of F2P games that are built around "pay to play as intended, free to play with major handicaps" mentalities. A boosted player and a player who got through HW legit are going to take roughly the same amount of time to get through SB. Also the time required to get from level 1 to level 60 should either remain the same or decrease come SB.

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- Most new people are not aware that roulettes give a decent chunk of exp. I am assuming they will not be considered sprouts either so it might take a while for them to figure that out (hopefully not long)

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Sprout status is based on two factors currently: 2.55 MSQ completion and 168 hours play time. A Sprout that story skips will still be a Sprout due to not having enough playtime to autolose the status.

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- Them having not so good experiences in DF. Yes, the community is mostly nice but we do have rotten apples here and there. From what I see in the main discussion topic they might be target for harassment. Hopefully that won't make them leave (but hey, if they do SE got the money anyway) and hopefully what's happening in that topic is just a lot of noise and nothing will actually follow through.

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Most of those threats tend to be hollow. Most players that will harass will find one reason or another to harass others even if jump potions didn't exist.

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- Getting frustrated at mechanics. It sounds silly I know, but I've found out the game is surprisingly good at making you better at dodging without you realizing. Also dungeons introduce you to a huge amount of mechanics you see later on on raids and primals. I was helping a friend of mine with a level 10 fate and I literally dodged the marker only to stand on it again. Up until then I never noticed that AoE markers stay on the floor for a good 3 seconds + when you are low level and go down to like 0.5 seconds at level 60 (hello calofisteri).

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This will depend a lot on how content is designed in SB and how well things like the suggest Hall of the Intermediate can teach various skills.

Most AoEs are actually roughly the same duration after about level 34 in Brayflox Longstop. Calofisteri has some serious tells (watch which side she forms the blade on) for all of her attacks giving a good 6s to preemptively dodge if you are paying attention.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

One thing to remember is that the XP jump potions are set to level cap -10. This is very different than the purchased XP multipliers of F2P games that are built around "pay to play as intended, free to play with major handicaps" mentalities. A boosted player and a player who got through HW legit are going to take roughly the same amount of time to get through SB. Also the time required to get from level 1 to level 60 should either remain the same or decrease come SB.

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I know we will take the same time. My point is: If HW it took you ~ 2 week to get to 60, without any exp boost in the rlts rewards and with the increased level cap will it take you 4 or more coming SB? Will that gap keep increasing until it's ridiculous? I find it to be slippery slope and it may open the door to things we might definitely not be okay with in the future. We'll see I guess.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Sprout status is based on two factors currently: 2.55 MSQ completion and 168 hours play time. A Sprout that story skips will still be a Sprout due to not having enough playtime to autolose the status.

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You're right. I took only into consideration the fact that you need to reach a certain point in the MSQ to lose the sprout status. I forgot about the gaming time. Welp, more work for mentors.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Most of those threats tend to be hollow. Most players that will harass will find one reason or another to harass others even if jump potions didn't exist.

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I really hope so.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

This will depend a lot on how content is designed in SB and how well things like the suggest Hall of the Intermediate can teach various skills.

Most AoEs are actually roughly the same duration after about level 34 in Brayflox Longstop. Calofisteri has some serious tells (watch which side she forms the blade on) for all of her attacks giving a good 6s to preemptively dodge if you are paying attention.

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Well yes, you know about the tells. I know about the tells but we've probably been around long enough to know bosses have visual and (lately) auditive queues. I've lost count to how many times I actually had to explain people in Weeping that her hair tells you which side she will cleave. If people who have been playing the game with no jump potions need that explained do you think new players will not? Even if they use the potion after lvl 30 as the statistics suggest I don't remember any boss having a visual queue like that from lvl 1 to brayflox.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

I said it once and I'll say it again:

If someone cares to learn to play, they will go out of their way to learn. A jump won't change that. If someone doesn't care to learn, they won't learn regardless. A jump won't change that. So, at the end, it will change nothing.

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give him a medal!

Follow the WoW formula and split the main story segments based on their zone, with the ending quest having an optional lead in quest to the next zone.

The whole reason this jump potion is even being considered is because the main story quests -drag on- to unimaginable tedium, and with another expansion coming out, they need to cut down on the fat of forced gating when XP sources put you past the level needed for them.

Make Heavesward a level 50 requirement instead of 'all previous story'. Make Stormblood a level 60 requirement instead of 'all previous story' mode. These jump potions are the most roundabout way to accomplish what they aim to.