Reactive Combat

Let's talk about Reactive Combat Skills.

I honestly think making Feint, Jarring Strike, Fracture, and Phalanx class specific is going to be very detrimental to the Enjoyment of solo game play.

Even if we somehow get to keep our manual attacks, it has always felt like they were not enough to warrant 30-60 second timers. The reactive combat skills give Solo combat the ability to draw the user into a fight. They also allow for a significant boost in Damage output for solo player. This boost does not translate in to party imbalance because these skills can only be used by the person with hate. I think it would be a great disservice to the people with a preference of solo game play to restrict skills that make there battles more Exciting and interactive.

These skills also go a long way to making tanking more fun. Players gain the ability to add to the party damage output and an additional method of gaining hate. I have always found tanking to be rather boring in other MMOs, but when you add these skills to a Gladiator or a Marauder it gives alot of depth and quick thinking to their game play.

I would kindly ask SE, please reconsider making these skills class specific, it is an unnecessary change that will not serve to improve our classes. This change will only diminish the depth of Solo and Tanking Combat.

Obviously Phalanx isn't going to change because shield skills are now exclusive to Gladiators. As far as the others go I think they should stay exclusive to the classes they were built for. Not that I've found them particularly useful lately, but hopefully with so many of the abilities trimmed down maybe they'll find a spot in people's arsenals.

You know what I would like. An icon or arrow pointing on those skills when my character parries/blocks/whatever. I simply don't know when my character blocked and this lead to me wasting those abilities. =/

the main problem here is your looking at th game now. after 1.20 you might not miss them at all, true you might. but to look at the way combat works now and see the list of what's to come, and base your fears on what will be an old system is wrong. (i wonder if ppl were scared to lose the oil lamps, when they got their electric lights fitted?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Orophin

Obviously Phalanx isn't going to change because shield skills are now exclusive to Gladiators. As far as the others go I think they should stay exclusive to the classes they were built for. Not that I've found them particularly useful lately, but hopefully with so many of the abilities trimmed down maybe they'll find a spot in people's arsenals.

---

I have always found them to be immensely useful. They are in fact the only way my Gladiator can Solo a decent pace. What I cannot see is any benefit from making them class specific. Yes, Phalanx is directly connected with shields and cannot be used without one, but Parrying is not Exclusive to axes and evading isn't exclusive to punching. Lancers certainly are not the only people who Miss. Lancer almost never miss, but they exclusively have the ability to react to a miss. That make very little sense.

I believe Class Identity can be well established by enhancing a Specifics classes ability to Block, Parry, or Evade, but I find it highly unnecessary to restrict players from reacting to those passive skills. Especially when taking into consideration that Classes should be well equipped for Solo Combat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quisi

You know what I would like. An icon or arrow pointing on those skills when my character parries/blocks/whatever. I simply don't know when my character blocked and this lead to me wasting those abilities. =/

---

It used to say it on screen. I think removing that was one of the worst design decisions to go into the game. It makes those skill significantly harder to use and they are already under utilized.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grandm

the main problem here is your looking at th game now. after 1.20 you might not miss them at all, true you might. but to look at the way combat works now and see the list of what's to come, and base your fears on what will be an old system is wrong. (i wonder if ppl were scared to lose the oil lamps, when they got their electric lights fitted?)

---

People didn't have all their oil lamps taken away the day they got a light bulb..

These's skills offer a depth to combat that cannot be gained from any other type of skill. They literally require the player to watch and react to their enemy. No other skills in the game require that and losing these ones is a significant hit to active combat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quisi

You know what I would like. An icon or arrow pointing on those skills when my character parries/blocks/whatever. I simply don't know when my character blocked and this lead to me wasting those abilities. =/

---

SE needs to implement my suggestion I've posted numerous times. Keep the icon of the ability unlit until you perform the defensive action. (and if you have the necessary TP if that is still applicable)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiote

People didn't have all their oil lamps taken away the day they got a light bulb..

These's skills offer a depth to combat that cannot be gained from any other type of skill. They literally require the player to watch and react to their enemy. No other skills in the game require that and losing these ones is a significant hit to active combat.

---

and you don't think the new combo system will be active combat?

(ppl might not have lost their oil lamps, but over time every1 can agree there is no need for them electric does a much better job)

It never said on screen when you guarded/parried, only evade and now there's no evade, you can counter on a miss. It still says everything in the chat log too. I would still like them to lighut up when you can use them, though. They probably will since there will be notifications or whatever for you to combo and those reactions are now combos.

Reaction abilities are fine being class specific, and help reinforce class playstyle/role, combos are there for active combat.

Edit: Also most of the time, not always, you can watch your character and know when you've guarded/parried. Guard seems to be the only spotty one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grandm

and you don't think the new combo system will be active combat?

(ppl might not have lost their oil lamps, but over time every1 can agree there is no need for them electric does a much better job)

---

I do not think the Combo system is going to be a sufficient replacement for these skills. Damage wise, yes, they will most likely make up for the lost of these skill, but as far as being engaged in combat I highly doubt it. The combo system is in essence just performing two Weapon Skill in succession. Sometime you will have to move position, but that is no different from any ordinary fight. Combos will not require you to pay as close of attention to your fight and with a 10 second window they will not require any quick thinking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Estellios

It never said on screen when you guarded/parried, only evade and now there's no evade, you can counter on a miss. It still says everything in the chat log too. I would still like them to lighut up when you can use them, though. They probably will since there will be notifications or whatever for you to combo and those reactions are now combos.

Reaction abilities are fine being class specific, and help reinforce class playstyle/role, combos are there for active combat.

Edit: Also most of the time, not always, you can watch your character and know when you've guarded/parried. Guard seems to be the only spotty one.

---

The game did in fact used to say Parry on screen. But it really makes no difference to me. Not having it say it only made it slightly more difficult, which I personally enjoy. thinking about most players, however, they would be more likely to use these skills if it were more obvious when they became active.

you didn't have to pay attention before, press featherfoot, spam haymaker, keep hitting haymaker for about 10 seconds, your evade didn't work, wait for featherfoot and try again, u didn't have to pay attention you just needed to spam enter

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grandm

you didn't have to pay attention before, press featherfoot, spam haymaker, keep hitting haymaker for about 10 seconds, your evade didn't work, wait for featherfoot and try again, u didn't have to pay attention you just needed to spam enter

---

Yea, you could do that if you never did anything else.

There is a large difference between playing strategically and trying to forcibly use a skill. Anyone can trigger these skills to go off, but incorporating them into an effective combat strategy was both Highly Engaging and Extraordinarily Powerful, if you learned to use them in conjunction with each other as well as your Prominent Class skills.

spamming enter will not work when you have to think about your next position for you combo to work, sound more active than spam enter to me

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grandm

and you don't think the new combo system will be active combat?

(ppl might not have lost their oil lamps, but over time every1 can agree there is no need for them electric does a much better job)

---

Oil lamps are much better when you don't have access to electricty or battery (no electricity would mean "solo" in your metaphor).

For once, I think the concern expressed was well explained and the thread isn't titled something like "REMOVING REACTION SKILLS, THE BIGGEST ERROR SE COULD DO". Allowing these abilities to be used cross-class (not saying cross-job since we know jobs will have have more restrictions but we don't know how) wouldn't hurt anyone and benefit the people who'd rather play as classes when they need to solo.

I used to farm solo as PGL before 1.18 versus r65ish boars with those reactive skills. It was challenging and a lot of fun, and I prolly couldn't have done it without them. Combos should be fun too, so we'll have to wait and see. And again, we just have the tip of the iceberg, there might be other things coming affecting this that we don't know of.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiote

I have always found them to be immensely useful. They are in fact the only way my Gladiator can Solo a decent pace.

---

Sorry....what?

Phalanx I/II aside, the reactionary skills of other classes are pretty much crap for Gladiator, especially when soloing. Jarring Strike is the most useful with it's stun and enmity increase, but it's damage is otherwise too poor to justify taking up a spot on your skill bar when compared to what you could be setting. Gladiator has a plethora of other skills that are far superior to any of the cross class reaction abilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chinook

Oil lamps are much better when you don't have access to electricty or battery (no electricity would mean "solo" in your metaphor).

For once, I think the concern expressed was well explained the thread isn't titled something like "REMOVING REACTION SKILLS, THE BIGGEST ERROR SE COULD DO". Allowing these abilities to be used cross-class (not saying cross-job since we know jobs will have have more restrictions but we don't know how) wouldn't hurt anyone and benefit the people who'd rather play as classes when they need to solo.

I used to farm solo as PGL before 1.18 versus r65ish boars with those reactive skills. It was challenging and a lot of fun, and I prolly couldn't have done it without them. Combos should be fun too, so we'll have to wait and see. And again, we just have the tip of the iceberg, there might be other things coming affecting this that we don't know of.

---

you will have no problem with any part of final fantasy if you don't have access to electricity

it had nothing to do with solo. i was trying to point out that ppl are scared of change. even when it is best

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grandm

it had nothing to do with solo. i was trying to point out that ppl are scared of change. even when it is best

---

I'm with you, the numerous complaint threads usually make me laugh (guess who's mule posted that change curve lolthread), but I found this one to be well done as it was more expressed as concern and feedback rather than the usual whining.

Anyway, can't wait to try out 1.20 and 1.21 to make myself an idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alerith

Sorry....what?

Phalanx I/II aside, the reactionary skills of other classes are pretty much crap for Gladiator, especially when soloing. Jarring Strike is the most useful with it's stun and enmity increase, but it's damage is otherwise too poor to justify taking up a spot on your skill bar when compared to what you could be setting. Gladiator has a plethora of other skills that are far superior to any of the cross class reaction abilities.

---

You are Correct, Jarring Strike does have relatively low damage, but that is ok because it's a stun. Stuns are very useful in solo combat. I personally switched to Haymaker which does on par damage with all of my GLA skills. Fracture does slightly less, but gimps enemy tp. Feint essentially allows you to unmiss an attack. On all of my classes I parry, evade, or block more often than the recast on these skills allows me to use them. On top of that they require a quarter of the tp of most WSs. All these factors combine allows a Solo fighter to actively loose a steady stream of damage while restricting the enemies ability to fight back and then close out the fight with a Diesel weapon skill and as of 1.20 a Combo.

Reactionary combat is both highly effective and fun for solo players. Removing it from the game would be a terrible loss to the entire community. There is no reason to remove a good thing in favor of another good thing when you can have two good things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grandm

you will have no problem with any part of final fantasy if you don't have access to electricity

it had nothing to do with solo. i was trying to point out that ppl are scared of change. even when it is best

---

This Thread has nothing to do with being scared of a change. This particular change offer absolutely no benefits, but is highly detrimental to a very Fun and Engaging way to play FFXIV.

This games development should make it a point to avoid destroying any kind of enjoyable play style if doing so does not offer a significant advancement in overall game play. In this case, it does not.

They are making combos specifically so you can solo and won't need all these reaction abilities. All the front lines have their own reaction ability now so it makes playing them all more unique.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiote

This particular change offer absolutely no benefits, but is highly detrimental to a very Fun and Engaging way to play FFXIV.

This games development should make it a point to avoid destroying any kind of enjoyable play style if doing so does not offer a significant advancement in overall game play. In this case, it does not.

---

So, you've tested this content then? How do you know that it was a bad change? You say it DOES NOT offer anything significant to the advancement....

Care to link us to your tests and facts?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Estellios

They are making combos specifically so you can solo and won't need all these reaction abilities. All the front lines have their own reaction ability now so it makes playing them all more unique.

---

These abilities do not make classes unique. The affinity for a specific defense makes a class unique, restricting the ability to react to a defense serves no purpose.

Combo are probably going to be great for solo Combat, but it is not the same kind of heavy user engagement combat that reactionary skill offers. There is no reason not to have both. This is the equivalent to the Instance Only vs. Instance and Open World argument. There is Zero reason to have one of them when you can have both. There is no benefit to this restriction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiote

This Thread has nothing to do with being scared of a change. This particular change offer absolutely no benefits, but is highly detrimental to a very Fun and Engaging way to play FFXIV.

This games development should make it a point to avoid destroying any kind of enjoyable play style if doing so does not offer a significant advancement in overall game play. In this case, it does not.

---

says you before you have even tried it.

how can you say this has nothing to do with being scared of change, when your thread is about them taking away something (change)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alerith

So, you've tested this content then? How do you know that it was a bad change? You say it DOES NOT offer anything significant to the advancement....

Care to link us to your tests and facts?

---

I didn't say it was bad, I said it was pointless. It restricts users and offers zero benefits.

Making the abilities class specific isn't removing them from the game, it just gives the different classes a specialty instead of having every class be able to abuse the advantageous TP to damage ratio of abilities like Haymaker. They actually are removing Haymaker (or at least converting it into a regular WS if it is one of the unnamed combo elements in the PGL list) but Jarring Strike will remain and I suspect it'll probably receive a bit of a damage buff in the process.

All melee classes will retain a reactionary skill, they just won't all be blended as one so you'll actually need to be aware of which class you are on when reacting instead of "hey the mob missed, time to punch with my (axe|spear|sword|hth)" across the board. This also opens the door for greater specialization in gear per class for maximizing opportunities for one specific event per class.

Voicing potential concerns about how things will be balanced is legitimate but going off and making wild leaps ahead when we are missing tons of variables is something else entirely. All we have is basic descriptions with really no idea about skill potency, additional effect proc rates, recasts, traits, all of which are at the absolute core of combat balance and hugely important for both soloing and party play. Feedback on general concepts can be helpful but wild speculation is just useless filler and reduces the chances of any constructive ideas being discussed and having an impact.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nagamaki

Making the abilities class specific isn't removing them from the game, it just gives the different classes a specialty instead of having every class be able to abuse the advantageous TP to damage ratio of abilities like Haymaker. They actually are removing Haymaker (or at least converting it into a regular WS if it is one of the unnamed combo elements in the PGL list) but Jarring Strike will remain and I suspect it'll probably receive a bit of a damage buff in the process.

All melee classes will retain a reactionary skill, they just won't all be blended as one so you'll actually need to be aware of which class you are on when reacting instead of "hey the mob missed, time to punch with my (axe|spear|sword|hth)" across the board. This also opens the door for greater specialization in gear per class for maximizing opportunities for one specific event per class.

Voicing potential concerns about how things will be balanced is legitimate but going off and making wild leaps ahead when we are missing tons of variables is something else entirely. All we have is basic descriptions with really no idea about skill potency, additional effect proc rates, recasts, traits, all of which are at the absolute core of combat balance and hugely important for both soloing and party play. Feedback on general concepts can be helpful but wild speculation is just useless filler and reduces the chances of any constructive ideas being discussed and having an impact.

---

There isn't any speculation going on here. There certainly isn't any wild speculation going on. All of these abilities are listed as Class Specific. I believe that there is no point to this change because:

1. These skills do not effect party balance as they can only be used by a person who has Hate
2. They are Highly effective for Solo Players
3. They allow for a more in depth and engaging form of solo combat
4. They offer a more well rounded experience for Tanks(instead of waiting to voke)
5. There is no significant benefit from restricting these to a single Class
6. Their Combat Style is not Replaced by Combos (they are different mechanics)
7. They can co-exist along side combo for an even more in-depth combat experience.
8. A Classes higher Skill at the Defensive aspect of these skills is more in line with Class Distinction than these skills themselves

I personally cannot see any benefit to this change.

The only reaction skill that is becoming exclusive that wasn't before is Jarring Strike. It's really not as big of a deal as you are making it out to be and the combos will most likely give everyone more than enough involvement in battles since you have to position and in some cases stun enemies to get behind them and such.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Estellios

The only reaction skill that is becoming exclusive that wasn't before is Jarring Strike. It's really not as big of a deal as you are making it out to be and the combos will most likely give everyone more than enough involvement in battles since you have to position and in some cases stun enemies to get behind them and such.

---

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news my friend, but you need to go read that list again. Phalanx, Feint, Jarring Strike, and Fracture are all being changed to class specific.

I'm sure combos will offer some kind of depth to combat, but it will not be nearly to the extent it could be if we had both Combos and Reactionary Skills.

Excuse me.. Mr. Moderator...

Can you put my Thread Back. I was trying to have a informative discussion, not hide an opinion in an unused forum..

This is ridiculous, we were having a really good discussion and you have destroyed it in an absurd decision to move an Active thread...

Can you please put my thread back in General Discussion? This is not about Battle Mechanics is a discussion about pending Changes for 1.20.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiote

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news my friend, but you need to go read that list again. Phalanx, Feint, Jarring Strike, and Fracture are all being changed to class specific.

I'm sure combos will offer some kind of depth to combat, but it will not be nearly to the extent it could be if we had both Combos and Reactionary Skills.

---

Fracture is the only one I missed, for whatever reason I thought Maim was the parry skill. Anyways, Phalanx is only usable with a shield and it increases enmity so you would only use it on... Gladiator. And it's becoming exclusive so no loss there. Gladiators also can't parry because you can't parry with a shield.

Fracture is becoming exclusive but MRD's other parry reaction is not exclusive.

Feint isn't becoming exclusive either.

Quote:

---

Melee attack. Can only be used immediately after missing an attack.

---

LNC WS 8 is not marked as exclusive and is the same function as Feint. However...

Quote:

---

Melee attack with increased TP generation. Can only be used immediately after missing an attack.

---

LNC WS 9 IS marked as exclusive but as far as I know does not currently exist in-game.

The only "major" skill that is being "lost" is Jarring Strike.

And this is a post about battle mechanics. It's good that the mods are sticking posts in the appropriate place.