Tomes vs random drops

Hello! I have a question for you active forum-goers. Do you prefer Tomestones for gear, or random drops? Why?

My take: Everyone seems to complain about Tomestones, but have you actually played an MMO without a grind-for-gear option? It can be the most frustrating thing you've ever experienced. Some people will be unlucky enough to just never get the drops they want or need. Grind-for-gear means that everyone can get it at the same rate, no luck involved.

I prefer random drops. In games where there are random drops, I enjoy running dungeons over and over for the hope that my item will drop. In games where there are tokens, I don't enjoy running dungeons over and over, as there is no hope - it's simply a chore to check off my to-do list.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I prefer random drops. In games where there are random drops, I enjoy running dungeons over and over for the hope that my item will drop. In games where there are tokens, I don't enjoy running dungeons over and over, as there is no hope - it's simply a chore to check off my to-do list.

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You must love primal mount farms before the rng adjustments and 99 token trade-ins then.

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Originally Posted by Lan_Mantear

You must love primal mount farms before the rng adjustments and 99 token trade-ins then.

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I've never used the 99 token trade-in system. The drop system is OK for it.

I prefer tomestones as a "lesser of two evils" option. They can be a bit of a pain...but definitely less of a pain than random drops, where it's not even confirmed that what you want will drop. Learned this the hard way while leveling up DRK...

I come from the MMO generation that thrived on the random drop mechanic when it came to gear. But I can easily say that the gaming world was more social about the content of the game. Now-a-days, things like shouting for groups is ostracized where back in the day it was almost like a conversation opener...

Socializing in this MMO is really about the stupidest things like sim-style role play or the incredibly worrying ERP...

I wouldn't mind the random drops for everything if they introduced skills or items that affected drop rates kind of like Treasure Hunter in FFXI.

Random drops are a terrible idea. Hey, why don't we lock content behind luck? Why don't we encourage people to treat the game like a job to "fairly" distribute drops?

I suspect all the positivity in this thread is survivorship bias, with perhaps a dash of masochism. If you actually get the drops you want, they're great, and if you don't, you probably stopped playing those kinds of games long ago.

Case in point, since I hit 60 with every job I've started running expert dungeons with whichever job has the most potential for gear upgrades. In my last eight expert runs I've seen exactly one (1) drop I could roll need on (and it just happened it was one I already had, so I had to pass anyway). Needless to say, I would not be running expert dungeons at all if that was the only reward.

I prefer a combination of the two, especially when there are meaningful gearing decisions between gear sets. That said, FFXIV doesn't offer a lot of meaningful gearing options (do you have enough accuracy? stack whatever stat is best for your class) so I'd much prefer keeping current by running one dungeon a day (tomestones) than potentially grinding all week for nothing.

well I like both systems but for the random drops it depends how it will be executed.
I don't like it when one of the best items can just drop of literally every enemy just at an insanely low droprate. I prefer fixed enemys that have the chance to get me what I'm looking for similar to the way Monster Hunter does it.:)

I have seen so many good mmos die to rng for gear and upgrading.....

What about this? Tomestone gear set to randomly drop from an instance, and if you get one you can't use, trade it in for a different one so long as it is 0% soulbound and of the same type (body for body, feet for feet). Considering that raid gear is truly the best, this would allow everyone else to gear up in good time without excuse.

The glaring problem here is that everyone would be geared up within a day and the added content would be null and dated on release.

I prefer a mix, with random drops (from dungeons or raids - not "any mob in this entire zone") being primary and some kind of farmable system meant as a supplement. When gearing becomes a matter of just grinding through a checklist, it becomes a little mind-numbing.

Now, this only applies if a loot table is not obscenely bloated wherein the chance of any individual item dropping is super low.

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Originally Posted by Reptiletc

What about this? Tomestone gear set to randomly drop from an instance, and if you get one you can't use, trade it in for a different one so long as it is 0% soulbound and of the same type (body for body, feet for feet). Considering that raid gear is truly the best, this would allow everyone else to gear up in good time without excuse.

The glaring problem here is that everyone would be geared up within a day and the added content would be null and dated on release.

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That's what loot lockouts are for.

Tomes please. Grinding anything with no guarantee of useful rewards is the absolute worst. :c I got sick of it after spending 10 hours straight farming a 30 minute boss in Monster Hunter for a 1% drop chance, especially since I couldn't always land enough damage to break the required limb for a shot at the loot I needed.

I prefer the idea of RNG drops but I remember playing XI and it being locked behind luck and Linkshell politics that basically made you show up for three months and slave away for nothing because no one ever had more points than the top five. So yeah, it's a mixed bag for me.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I prefer random drops. In games where there are random drops, I enjoy running dungeons over and over for the hope that my item will drop. In games where there are tokens, I don't enjoy running dungeons over and over, as there is no hope - it's simply a chore to check off my to-do list.

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Unless those drops are capped the same way 24-man Raids do it, people will simply farm dungeons until they're geared and have no reason to go back. Regardless, I prefer having tomes because it's guaranteed progression in lieu of luck. I had to run A9N 20+ times one week to get the bolt I wanted. By the 15th, I just stopped caring.

The relic taught me this is not a good idea.

Also PotD sacks.

Considering that it took me about 2 months of running Sohr Khai/Hullbreaker Hard 2 or 3 times per day to get the Panegyrist chestwrap, I'll take the tomes. By the time I actually got the damn thing, I didn't even want it anymore. And I was only after it for glamour, I would have been even more upset if I actually needed the gear for progression.

I prefer the token system. Doing Coils, it was incredibly annoying getting the same drop three times in a row, being locked out at once a week until the lock out lifted. It's also incredibly annoying to be held back in gear simply because RNG decides it wants to mess with you. Considering you can still get the items before you hit the amount of tokens needed, I find this a decent mitigation on RNG.

We had the Midan Belt of Fending drop six times in a row. We've also gotten double healing accessories three times in a row in the Alexandrian tier. Our poor monk has only ever gotten his gear through tokens (it really hates him!); I can only imagine his rage if it had the same loot system as Coil.

EDIT: Nope, wait. I was wrong; he got the striking headpiece through a drop.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Unless those drops are capped the same way 24-man Raids do it, people will simply farm dungeons until they're geared and have no reason to go back. Regardless, I prefer having tomes because it's guaranteed progression in lieu of luck. I had to run A9N 20+ times one week to get the bolt I wanted. By the 15th, I just stopped caring.

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I understand your concern for sure. My concern is that I stopped caring about all instanced content in this game completely a long time ago. I no longer play for the content, I play for my friends.

WoW's latest expansion pretty much convinced me that the random drop system can work if executed right.

I don't like either, but tomes are definitely the lesser of the two evils.

Take for example, my ninja I am currently leveling. I'm leveling it the old-school way of actually doing the leveling HW dungeons and not PotD (what is this?!). I still have a level 50 necklace, and a level 52 body piece and belt. I ran the Vault three times so far, and I have only gotten one piece of gear (earrings) from there. I had a Dex ring from back when I was doing story on my BRD.

This doesn't really change that tomes are more of a chore for me (I honestly haven't capped scripture in four weeks since I already have all the pieces I want for BRD and DRK), but RNG is cruel. (Because now that I actually need scouting gear, it's nowhere to be seen!!!)

I guess for me it'd be a balance of the two, but I think tokens work better for a more casual game like this that throws rewards at players for little effort, and trains players to want things quickly (and possibly for little effort). Instant gratification tokens.

Both tokens and random drops have their ups and downs, but I think in this day and age you're more likely to keep people playing with a token system.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I understand your concern for sure. My concern is that I stopped caring about all instanced content in this game completely a long time ago. I no longer play for the content, I play for my friends.

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See, I think RNG drops would have that same effect, just on more people. Right now, I only have to run Xelphatol/GGH a few times a week if I don't cap Scriptures another way. With RNG, I could be running one or both several times a week, which would only make them that much less appealing. I suppose queue times would improve though, depending on the drop rates. Frankly, I don't see how this makes dungeons feel less of a chore. If anything, they'd now become more of one.

Tomes are a slow monotonous guarantee. You get there as an eventuality of all your work, but the road is a tedious and boring one.

Random drops are a spontaneous and exciting uncertainty. RNG can favor you, or hinder you. You could get the best drops, or never see them.

I prefer the chaos of the latter, honestly. It's a better carrot on a stick than grinding a currency for me.

Though there's nothing that says both cannot exist at once.

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Originally Posted by Averax

Tomes are a slow monotonous guarantee. You get there as an eventuality of all your work, but the road is a tedious and boring one.

Random drops are a spontaneous and exciting uncertainty. RNG can favor you, or hinder you. You could get the best drops, or never see them.

I prefer the chaos of the latter, honestly. It's a better carrot on a stick than grinding a currency for me.

Though there's nothing that says both cannot exist at once.

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I think where this may work is in Eureka. Keep weekly lockouts to prevent grinding and you'll essentially be able to gear two jobs equally. Granted, it does allow people to gear one just exceptionally fast. So that could be a problem.

I've had a discussion with my friend about this few days ago.

So far we have:
- iL 225 dungeon drops (Expert).
- iL 250 from alexander normal.
- iL 250 crafted gear.
- iL 260 by exchanging tomestones.
- iL 270 from Alexander Savage.

Would be nice to have other way to get iL 260. For example finish expert dungeons in under 10 min.
This could drop 2 chests at the end with iL 260 accessories only! If you finish it within 15 min then you get 1 chest instead of 2.
Meaning you save your tomestones for your left side rather than accessories.

Even with this system it will take a player around 10-13 weeks to get complete iL260 on left side (Including weapon, not including belt).
This just makes dungeons more rewarding rather than just a way to farm your tomestones.

Another way to get I260 armor is coming up in 3.5. It'll even have that random drop flavor that everyone says they crave.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

See, I think RNG drops would have that same effect, just on more people. Right now, I only have to run Xelphatol/GGH a few times a week if I don't cap Scriptures another way. With RNG, I could be running one or both several times a week, which would only make them that much less appealing. I suppose queue times would improve though, depending on the drop rates. Frankly, I don't see how this makes dungeons feel less of a chore. If anything, they'd now become more of one.

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It could, but I would say that WOW is evidence that more players prefer a game with random drops than FFXIV. It's hard to draw an exact conclusion as there are a great many factors that weigh on people's opinions, though.

Sure worked out really well for Diadem.

In my opinion, it's less about what the system is and more about how well it is implemented.

As it stands, I will take the boring daily tome grind over boring dungeon run any days.

I would prefer dungeons to drop useful stuff. I see literally every drop in a dungeon as only being good for GC seals.

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Originally Posted by mosaicex

Sure worked out really well for Diadem.

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ugh you just reminded me. I really wish they wouldn't go back and revisit this trying to force it to work.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Random drops are a terrible idea. Hey, why don't we lock content behind luck? Why don't we encourage people to treat the game like a job to "fairly" distribute drops?

I suspect all the positivity in this thread is survivorship bias, with perhaps a dash of masochism. If you actually get the drops you want, they're great, and if you don't, you probably stopped playing those kinds of games long ago.

Case in point, since I hit 60 with every job I've started running expert dungeons with whichever job has the most potential for gear upgrades. In my last eight expert runs I've seen exactly one (1) drop I could roll need on (and it just happened it was one I already had, so I had to pass anyway). Needless to say, I would not be running expert dungeons at all if that was the only reward.

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I agree, I've wasted enough of my time losing the damn DRG 230 Weeping City chestpiece to floortanks in the first week.

Tombs hands down. If you had to rely on RNG to get your gear it would be a very unpleasant experience

I like the token & tome farming solution. So you can go the faster harder way by raiding, or the slower easier way by farming Tomes, or do both to go even faster xD.
I don't like RNG because while it can give out very quick gratification if you're lucky with the loot, it can be very unpleasant if you're not. Basically you don't really deserve what you get lucky or not. With tomes or tokens, you do earn what you get.

For me tomes is perfectly fine since the gear is trash come next patch usually anyway. If it had any real lifespan I would mind putting effort into obtaining it.

I did for coil gear, but really that was because I really enjoyed coil so I was happy running it multiple times for drops.

What it really comes down to is content and/or lifespan. If content is good or gear lasts and lasts then yes give me drops, but for me with Alex I'd rather stick a goblin in a bag with a lala, tie them to a tree branch and poke them with sticks to see what falls out. And since the gear doesn't last any fantastic amount of time, I am good with tomes.

I prefer tombstone tokens :p. People who prefer random have probably never experienced what lack of luck really mean... And random just add lifespan for those who are unlucky and goes to fast for others. To put it simply, I hate rng.

With rng it can happens you never get what you run for.

Little edit for Texa Yuu

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Originally Posted by Eldevern

I prefer tombstone.

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I also prefer tombstone!
http://i.imgur.com/qbqzkYX.jpg

Okay but yeah, random drops are okay for alts but I'd rather the best main gear be a little more guaranteed.

I really wish you could "Farm" the raids, ONTOP of pages. :C Yeah yeah you burn out the content. But Am I really supposed to be doing a raid for 12 straight weeks for 1 or 2 items???

I would rather you get 1 Page every week you clear.... BUT remove the 0-1-2 chest lockouts. Let 2 chests drop each time (Hell knock it down to 1 after your clear IDC JUST SOMETHING.) You should be able to roll everytime you beat the fight. Just like a12N. You get a Gear each week, but are still able to roll on the items that drop, as long as you haven't gotten an item this week.

I'm fine with clearing each floor each week for a page THEN going back to farm for specific pieces or even going into a PUG to do it. Just give me the option. Let me falter the hand of RNG with more effort.

Pages should be used mostly for Upgrade Materials and if your luck is that bad, 270 Alex Drops.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

So far we have:
- iL 225 dungeon drops (Expert).
- iL 250 from alexander normal.
- iL 250 crafted gear.
- iL 260 by exchanging tomestones.
- iL 270 from Alexander Savage.

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We also have iL 230 by exchanging Lore tomestones. What I'd like is another way to get i230 gear...like putting i230 in Expert dungeons, sinc i225 is basically useless.
For i260, since it's weekly locked, you shouldn't be able to get that ilvl with an "unlocked" way.

Back to the OP, why should we have to chose ? We can have both for each tome ilvl. Ex dungeons = uncapped tome gear, 24-man raid = capped tome gear.

RNG is fine for things like mounts and minions, but keep it far away from my character progression, please.

Currency for equipment.

RNG for everything else.