After spending so much time havingargumentsconstructively critical discussions on this forum about what "Final Fantasy" entails, I'm surprised at how much Dragon Age is just rubbing my face in it.
The bard character's best and unique weapons are bows, the Ranger is heavily focused on nature and usually has a pet tank for it while it stabs sh!t in the back with a dagger, and none of the jobs are allowed to faff about and only take care of one thing at a time.
Does anybody else think that Yoshida-san's interpretation of the Final Fantasy universe within the current generation MMO market might be (DON'T HIT ME!) fixing some of the goofier preconceptions that old-school Final Fantasy (DEAR TWELVE, NOT THE FACE) screwed up a bit in terms of "standard fantasy setting" or "hodgepodge of global traditional fantasy generalities"?Quote:
Originally Posted by ZERO PUNCTUATION
"Leave XIV Alone!" ~ Dragon Age
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11-20-2011, 11:21 AMAnonymoose"Leave XIV Alone!" ~ Dragon Age
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11-20-2011, 11:28 AMRhomagus
Yes I do, but at the end of the day the fans want what they've been taking for the past 28 or so years. It seemed like the Tanaka dev team was trying to crawl out of the crumbling cave that is "Fantasy" vs. "Final Fantasy" and just weren't successful.
It was a gamble that busted unfortunately.
Yoshida had to pick up the cards and take a seat.
We'll see how this hand works out. -
11-20-2011, 11:29 AMJunpei
Well, he played DAoC right? that was his main MMO? so I guess he's fond of western fantasy settings and how they are traditionally portrayed.
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11-20-2011, 11:40 AMAnonymooseAye, that's what I've been thinking about. The thing is, the original point of Final Fantasy was to bring Western fantasy to Japan because it was so exotic and ... fantastic. That's why FF uses re-named versions of the American standard measurements (Yalm = Yard; Ponze = Pounds) and why most of the items in the Japanese versions are katakana of English words (Grass Viper = Gurassubaipa). It sounds more exotic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junpei
So, that leads me back to - if the original intent was to bring all of the world's fantasy together into one lore and then transform it into their own ... maybe Yoshida, with his more expansive experience with non-final-fantasy fantasy, is actually fixing some things that have gone askew.
To be loyal to old customs for the sake of being afraid of being the "bad man" who changes them is dishonest and lazy; sticking to bad customs prevents the creation of new and better ones. (<3 You, Nietzsche!)
Not to sound like a fanboy whiteknight or anything, but... I've gotta say, I'm behind the guy. -
11-20-2011, 11:49 AMCatapult
Perceptions of what a western fantasy world should be don't worry me much. I just want the world to be internally coherent in and of itself so we don't get Phoenix Wright standing up and screaming with the word OBJECTION!
Trends, conceptions and what fantasy should be: They all mean little if a game's lore and structure can't mesh with its own principles. -
11-20-2011, 11:52 AMAnonymooseWell said; I admit, all of the "I can see this turning out pretty awesome..." I've been trying to stay positive about would be pretty moot if crashing BRD into ARC turns out as well as crashing a gay pride parade into a biker bar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catapult
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11-20-2011, 11:53 AMgrandm
final fantasy is how many years old now? i'm sure you know the date mouse (not a dig at your age:P just meaning you know a lot about final fantasy) anyway if you are as old as final fantasy. are you the same person you was when final fantasy 1 hit the shelfs?
the brand has changed so much since the original (that was always ment to be a one off) but if yo don't evolve you die. is the new FF a good thing? if i'm honest i prefer the old FF. but maybe that is me showing my age -
11-20-2011, 12:09 PMAnonymooseAre you ready for my Final Fantasy street-cred to hit the floor? The Final Fantasy I played was FFX (In 2002; when I was 14). I know, I know. (The shame!) X sucked me in so deep that I went back and binged the entire series in one summer hoping to find one that lived up to it. Needless to say, pretty much every single Final Fantasy beat it in terms of characters, but Spira's lore remains among my toppers. (If anyone cares, Final Fantasy Tactics for PSX was my favorite by far, XII coming in close second because I pretend that Vaan decided being a sky pirate sucked, went back to Rabanastre, and left Balthier as the main character after Act One).Quote:
Originally Posted by grandm
As for the game aging, aye, adaptation is completely required. Sometimes I just feel that they change and cling to the wrong things, which is why I find at least 90% of the recent changes refreshing compared to the alternatives. I'm happy to see what XIV will become, it's the process of becoming and adapting to it that's got my feathers ruffled. Like they say, it's not being dead that sucks - it's getting dead. I think game evolution's kinda similar, sometimes.
Then again, if XIII proved anything, it's that they're pretty much out of ideas if they don't start making some drastic changes. So, if it prevents another XIII, change whatever you want. -
11-20-2011, 12:17 PMgrandm
i'll never forget the headline
"final fantasy 13, a fantasy too far"
i hated reading that. but i hated more that i had to agree. anyhoo i love what yoshi is doing with 14. and i even love the look for 13-2. and if SE has proven one thing over and over again, its don't count them out -
11-20-2011, 12:18 PMCatapultSimilar story here. X was first and I've been dabbling in the earlier titles as they've been re-released. Although I'm abnormal in that I really enjoyed XIII. And XII, although that's more to do with the game ripping off Skies of Arcadia than anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
Feathers ruffling for the same reason. But holding out because if Ferne has proven anything, it's that the lore masters and writers can get rather creative. -
11-20-2011, 12:22 PMAnonymooseI think what bugged me about it was how much I wanted to like it and wasn't allowed to. 75% of the game was a rail adventure, and 23% of the rest was farming various levels of turtles. So much lost potential (and bad character development. I hope the XIII adventure got Lightning to be a little more than the character equivalent of a blank piece of paper.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Catapult
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11-20-2011, 12:28 PMVerecund
The thing I've liked about many Final Fantasy titles is that they really try to incorporate the raw, deity-esque fantasy stuff into more modern pseudo-universes (which is no doubt a parody of the modern Japanese culture - new ideas sitting alongside old tradition).
Though, if I were to compare XIV to another FF RPG title, or set it side-by-side with a Western fantasy RPG title, I would probably say that it is a little weak in both regards, all things considered... It's really nothing like the western DND style at all as far as the character of the game is concerned (though some of the dialogue is mature... and actually funny), and when paired up with the single-player FF titles it doesn't really have the same calibre of new/old harmony.
But, one thing I really like about this game is that everything is completely true to Yoshitaka Amano's brilliant concept works :cool: -
11-20-2011, 02:20 PMBowenWhile we are talking about FFXIII. Omg can't wait til' FFXIII-2 :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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11-20-2011, 03:18 PMViridianaI knew I liked you for a reason. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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11-21-2011, 02:02 AMElexiaSubjective, I personally find western fantasy dull and generic. I like eastern and middle eastern fantasy and mythology. The original point of Final Fantasy was to save the company and bring out a good RPG, not westernize the RPG genre in Japan because the 80s and 90s Japan were starting to turn out the key JRPGs at the time which was significantly different from western RPGs in ways. The only relevance to western RPG FF shared was the magic system was sort of similiar to Dungeons & Dragons, then they went with the current Mana setup that they threw out for FFXIII.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
You're definitely stretching it a bit. It's not done because it sounded exotic, it's done because it's common practice in Japanese media (specifically gaming) to use generalized names, a lot of FF names, that you forget to point out, are generally much more rooted in older (and usually) middle eastern/asian mythology with the exception of heavy use of norse for some. If I'm in Japan and I try to write out that I seen a Garden Snake, am I trying to be exotic? Or am I just saying it's a Garden Snake?Quote:
why most of the items in the Japanese versions are katakana of English words (Grass Viper = Gurassubaipa). It sounds more exotic.
XIV is a very blatant attempt at westernizing the (MMO) series, much like XIII was for the offline series since fast paced straight to the point gaming is what's popular now but that doesn't mean it's a good thing at times, because it's the biggest reason Korea dislikes TERA, even though it's not a horrible MMO, it's very clearly trying to appeal purely to western bases which Korea's main complaint about TERA aside lack of content, is "It feels to western, if I wanted to play a western MMO I'd play World of Warcraft or Rift."
I get the idea of the thread, but some things are a tad bit of a stretch of the imagination. No one is resistant to change, but remember that Final Fantasy wasn't made to westernize Japanese RPGs, it was made purely to save Square's asses lol. -
11-21-2011, 02:19 AMgrandm
@elexia
you are wrong to say final fantasy was created to save square. square was a failing company that was about to go bankrupted this is true. however when Hironobu Sakaguchi used the last of his money to create final fantasy, it was his swan song. he knew he had enough money to make one last game, so he thought if he was going out he was going out on a high. and he made final fantasy, the final in the title was to represent this was squares last game. what was a huge surprise was that fact that it was so successful, not enough to get them out of trouble but enough to keep the litghts on a little longer, long enough for them to make a second game FF2 which was what saved the company
"final fantasy the most ironicly named game in the world" (wish i could remember where i read that quote) -
11-21-2011, 02:43 AMElexiaExactly, thus to save the company, since it was their main IP that actually..saved them. =P If it wasn't for it, we'd never have gotten Seiken Densetsu or Romancing SaGa, let alone Chrono Trigger which would have been sad days for gaming lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by grandm
I just never heard of it being made to bring Westernized RPGs to Japan, especially in the 80s/90s, only that it was their final shot at a good game. Also that quote was from the retrospective of the series. -
11-21-2011, 02:49 AMgrandm
it was not made to save the company. it was a vanity game made only because Hironobu Sakaguchi could make it. if he had thought it would be so successful he would have made it in the first place instead of the 5 crap games he made to begin with that nobody liked. final ment his last ever game. not last game unless it works. that fact that it was a success was a happy accident, not a plan
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11-21-2011, 02:54 AMSeif
I don't think the FF-feeling was ever about just airships or Chocobos. It was the fresh take on everything in their own fantastic worlds. Western game companies do the generic medieval setting literally ALL the time.
I personally don't need another game company like SE to jump on that boring trend. What SE has offered us with the past FF titles is something western game companies can't even dream of doing. That level of imagination can't be bought with just money alone.
It's also the themes of writing that were very distinct in their melancholic tone to anything else the western market has offered. XIV's writing just feels generic in the sense that it's lacking a general theme like all the past FF-titles.
The dev team needs to open their eyes and put some soul into this game. Superficial things like yellow birds or features from this or that FF-title don't make a good FF-game. It's designing new things with brave originality and around a certain theme based on a good writer/director like Sakaguchi.
Slapping a Gold Saucer from VII certainly will make a few fans squal in glee but it won't lift XIV in the same category of past FF titles. -
11-21-2011, 03:02 AMSynfragI don't know where to break your quote due to missing periods but....Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
Tera is Korean, and has been Korean long before it even announced a western launch so why would it be developed for western appeal? Aion was exactly the same way being created in Korea and then ported west. In that process they westernize some extra things. I get your point about them failing with creating a western like theme but it was intended for the Korean market not the NA/EU.
Regardless, Korea is not a thing like Japan. You should know, you live there. In MMOs Korea is vain and superficial, their games are always about looking cool/sexy with scantly clad women and crazy looking men. Their gamer market is actually younger than NA/EU unlike Japan's which is older than the west. I can't speak for Tera but as far as Aion is concerned, the largest bulk of content releases coming from NC East was costumes and aesthetics, not anything to do with Mythology or Westernizations. Content is developed only for their market. -
11-21-2011, 03:09 AMElexia
Yeah it's mostly because gamers have become so..fickle about things this and last generation that there's almost no room for originality in major companies or risks without extreme backlash. I believe this is exactly why games like Super Meat Boy and Minecraft got popular because they're from "nobodies" (no not Kingdom Hearts nobodies.)
If a commercial company made Super Meat Boy, you'd get shit for it not being a graphical marvel. If it was made Bioware, you'd condemn their graves for daring to not make the events driven by dialogs and so on. The FF feel is indeed taking risks and originality, since FFIII was a big risk in throwing in a job system, FFIV? Taking it away, FFV? readding it with the 'subjob' type system where you can equip an ability from mastered jobs on any other and so on. FFXI was the biggest risk, first online FF game and built around a FF game the west has never played unless you imported or played a translation patch of it (FFIII).
So the way I see it, the developers want to open their eyes, but the second they do they'll get a blast of "NO MAKE IT STANDARD" light. They're getting there (FF feel), but it's hard to when it comes to MMOs, since people expect bland, "been there done that" style MMOs that plagues the genre now.
It was designed to try to mass appeal the western MMO type, it still has a grind, there's no denying that, but it feels too much like a western MMO from the get go, otherwise lack of content alone isn't enough to turn Korean players off of an MMO because they'll gladly grind the same content out because that's the gist of most of their MMOs currently out, i.e RO and Aion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synfrag
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11-21-2011, 03:28 AMSarchy_Warchy
Its called final fantasy because each game is a new and different world with different gameplay. Thus the final game with that world.
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11-21-2011, 03:32 AMgrandmi found where i got my quote. read this then tell me again why its called final fantasyQuote:
Originally Posted by Sarchy_Warchy
http://uk.retro.ign.com/articles/870/870770p1.html -
11-21-2011, 03:32 AMSynfragThis is dead on. They tried to do it and immediately in the western Alpha/Beta they were assaulted for the stamina system, convoluted class identities and lack of cohesion to WoW standards. I hate to use that reference but it is really what started the mass hotbar phenomenon. There are some others deviating from it as well, we have Tera with the FPS type targeting and GW2 with the live action command and no healer situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
There is so much hype about the non defined roles system in GW2 yet it is exactly what XIV tried. In the end it proved to be too convoluted for the mass public and everyone pushed SE into defining roles back to the MMO standard format of DD/Heal/Tank/Suport.
SE has always said there was a 50/50 element of the series with retaining legacy and developing new gameplay mechanics. Really where XIV went wrong is it went more like 10/90 where the only retention was the setting. All of the fantasy was lost, the progression was lost and anything familiar went out the door. On top of that battle mechanics were changed and all of this added up to the garbage it was when it was released.
Had the game launched without the horrid physical flaws that it has such as server lag, market system, group search and UI issues the rest could have been forgivable in the short run as they developed the "Feel". Or vice versa, had the "Feel" been on spot and the functionality flaws existed, again it would have been forgivable in the short run.
But we all know that's not how it went. We had both the lack of any excitement coupled with the terrible functionality that has lead to this complete redesign of the entire game. We can only hope that Yoshida et al see this the same way and attack both fronts. It looks like they do but we won't see it in any 1.x versions it will only come to light in 2.0 -
11-21-2011, 05:59 AMDarkvalkyr
I feel sad that every time I talk about XIV to people they always look at me funny.
As if XI was bad enough.