3.5/4.0 Speculation & Discussion (Spoilers)

I figured I'd make a thread to contain a lot of the speculation and discussion about 3.5 and 4.0 that's inevitably been leaking into other threads simply due to the gradual trickle of information we've been getting about both since the Las Vegas Fan Fest combined with a lot of people's hype, concerns and general enthusiasm.

To get the ball rolling here's a link to a recent interview dropping a fair bit of information on 3.5/4.0:

http://gamerescape.com/2016/11/15/fa...-fan-festival/

I don't necessarily mind the Zeno villain thing but I am a bit bummed Regula sounds like he is going to go out in a relatively minor role. I still hope we will see more moderate Garleans. They said that they will be comparing the Garleans to the Allag the Garleans try to emulate and while there was a lot wrong with the Allag, I don't think they were entirely bad as a nation (apart from Miqote persecution the bastards!:P)

One thing I kind of hold out with is the idea that being loyal to the idea of the Garlean state and loyal to the imperial family don't necessarily have to be the same thing. We know that Garlemald has conflicting internal factions and I expect us to end up going to Garlemald proper some day. When your talking about a faction like Garlemald, there aren't that many threats big enough to make them reliable allies at the moment unless the Ascians switch tact completely and start operating openly or unless the threat to Garlemald is Garlemald itself.

My hope is at some point Garlemald will get a bit of the Ishgard treatment in that we have to deal with the elements that are a threat but we aren't going to go there to throw the baby out with the bath water.

There seems to be three major things mentioned here;

1) What Yoshi-P said about Zenos being a completely unsympathetic character seems to contradict what was said at Fanfest, that we'd see a much more nuanced side to Garlean occupation once we see it for ourselves, instead of through the biased filter of the Resistance. Personally I hope it's going to be both and also directly tied to the fallout of that vicious civil war Garlemald just had.

2) Estinien is going to remain a main character. My main tank has a theory that he's just going to continue cosplaying Kain Highwind and will be entering the "Hooded Man" phase next.

3) Regarding the teaser trailer, Yoshi-P said "Players who have been following the scenario from 1.0 will notice that something is 'off'". My favourite theory on this one comes from Reddit, which is that because the Derplander seems to have aged again we're about to see another time-skip (Gracious Althyk, grant us your blessing, save us from this time bubble).

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I don't necessarily mind the Zeno villain thing but I am a bit bummed Regula sounds like he is going to go out in a relatively minor role.

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Ever since we saw VIth Legion and some subtle Kefka homages, I've been prepping myself for him to get offed in 3.5. The FFVI stuff is all very tied to the floating continent, and Kefka references tend to have a certain ... directionality. It wouldn't surprise me at all of he gets a dramatic exit soon.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I still hope we will see more moderate Garleans.

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One day we'll get our Larsa, I'm sure. At this point, wishing ill for the entire Empire is wishing for two continents to be thrown into upheaval. We and the Garleans share a common goal: the salvation of the world. It's everything about how to achieve that goal that we disagree on. But the Empire has been heading down the same path as Allag, and are making some of the same mistakes. We need only purge certain factions and points of view to make peace with the Garleans ... after a satisfying conflict, I hope. I mean, I'm lukewarm excited for our "Larsa", and all, but what about our "Vayne"? I've been so focused on my high hopes for Elidibus as one of the apex antagonists that I've barely considered it!

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Originally Posted by FJerome

What Yoshi-P said about Zenos being a completely unsympathetic character seems to contradict what was said at Fanfest, that we'd see a much more nuanced side to Garlean occupation once we see it for ourselves, instead of through the biased filter of the Resistance. Personally I hope it's going to be both and also directly tied to the fallout of that vicious civil war Garlemald just had.

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I get the feeling that it's going to be both. The Griffin has already been establishing that Ala Mhigo's new viceroy is a brute compared even to Gaius van Baelsar, but at the same government views tend to vary much more than populous views. Most people just want stability and opportunities to thrive, and some people will surely be afraid that handing control of the nation over to a resistance that's done nothing but fight and run for two decades (and ousted the King of Ruin at that) is a horrible idea, no matter how bad Zenos is. Sometimes the regime is all that needs to change. Sometimes attempting regime change does more harm that good. I can think of some real-world relevance...

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Originally Posted by FJerome

Regarding the teaser trailer, Yoshi-P said "Players who have been following the scenario from 1.0 will notice that something is 'off'". My favourite theory on this one comes from Reddit, which is that because the Derplander seems to have aged again we're about to see another time-skip

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Sounds like seven hells of risk! I mean, having a concrete definition of "Okay, this story is in THIS year, this story is in THIS year" will be a huge boon to certain aspects of the game experience (like not being asked what year it is every three to twelve days). And there are a ton of ways to do some really fun stuff with it.

On the other hand, the bubble was put in place for reasons. We can't just go back in time when we teleport west of Ala Mhigo, so I assume time would move everywhere. That means we'll have to maintain the timeline archives much better than we have been to ensure things don't get crazy. Imagine if 4.0 starts and the Battle of Silvertear Skies was now 16 years ago? Eep!

And that's not to mention all of the RP timelines it's going to uproot ... and just after they got hit with the Encyclopædia meteor! LOL

But aside from some issues with flow and trope, they've done great with such decisions in the past. I'm sure it'll (mostly) work out fine, either way.

Yeah, there's definitely a contradiction at play regarding Xenos. I'm not sure how to read into the whole 'nobody will sympathise with him' statement because a character can do awful things and still have at least some redeeming qualities. Cersei Lannister is my favourite example for those familiar with Game of Thrones - a lot of people brush her off as 'evil' but fail to understand why she acts like she does. I do hope they're not backing down on the more moderate angle of the conflict. Turning Garlemald into a one dimensional villain across the board after seeing the likes of Gaius and Regula would be very disappointing.

I'd like to think that they won't do that but I've been disappointed by cheap cop outs for major plot developments in the past so I'm trying to temper my expectations this time around. Belhi's point about Garleans not necessarily needing to be loyal to the Emperor to be loyal to their homeland is a great point. As the war starts getting closer and closer to the 'comfortable' Garlean territory I imagine there may be a backlash against aggressive expansion. At the same time I hope it's made clear that - as the lorebook states - the Garleans didn't have it easy and were forced to relocate and survive in a hostile land against their will, eventually building themselves up so that they could fight back and expand.

As for a potential time skip...I wouldn't be opposed but it'd be a real pain for role-players and their characters. Unless it's something moderate. It would be refreshing to see the 'time bubble' popped though.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Yeah, there's definitely a contradiction at play regarding Xenos.

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Uh, it's Zenos, with a Z. and 3.4 already told us that he was worse then Gaius in his treatment of the people.

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

Uh, it's Zenos, with a Z. and 3.4 already told us that he was worse then Gaius in his treatment of the people.

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That's what I get for writing up a post when I'm tabbing in and out of the game. Though you're right - 3.4 did tip us off to Zenos being a bad apple but some of us were hoping it'd be bias on behalf of the Ala Mhigan Resistance who aren't exactly known for their own pure and righteous morality.

On an unrelated note seeing more of Estinien will be interesting. Perhaps they can start setting up some of the other Scions to be replaced/retired by new arrivals to keep things fresh and keep the stakes high.

I actually want to pop the time-bubble partially for RP reasons because the bigger the discrepancy gets between how much time has passed in-game vs the real world the weirder the pacing of the RP events get. IRL, we had an RP event about two years back where a character lost her husband and then last month she eternally bonded with her new wife - in real world time, that pacing seems fine? But trying to fit it into the time bubble robs the first event of its weight 'cause apparently she wasn't that sad after all, given how quickly she moved on.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

That's what I get for writing up a post when I'm tabbing in and out of the game. Though you're right - 3.4 did tip us off to Zenos being a bad apple but some of us were hoping it'd be bias on behalf of the Ala Mhigan Resistance who aren't exactly known for their own pure and righteous morality.

On an unrelated note seeing more of Estinien will be interesting. Perhaps they can start setting up some of the other Scions to be replaced/retired by new arrivals to keep things fresh and keep the stakes high.

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My guess is either Paps, Yda, or her sister is on the chopping block to make room for new Scions. As much as people point at Nanamo as an example of death not mattering in XIV i feel like people forget that we lose two major allies to it AFTER getting her back. those three and Raubhan are all going to have logically important roles to play and other characters who could very viably step into there roles. At least one is dead by the end of 4.0 MSQ

I think attributing how Garlemald will be portrayed to just one character is the issue here.

We can absolutely have a complete dick of a foe in Zenos, and still get the feeling that there's much more the Garlemald than being an evil empire. In fact, having leaders like that portrayed as ruthless and other such unlikable characteristics arguably makes it easier for other elements of the enemy to garner sympathy or empathy without having to make those who are part of such a situation friends/allies.

It's going to be revealed that the Griffin is Ilberd, and he's going to use Nidhogg's eyes to power Omega and rampage into Ala Mhigo with it. Or something.

For the shades of conflict we're going to get Zenos as a dickbag but #NotAllGarleans, while the Resistance (esp. the Masks) are going to show us they're not really any better. We're going to take down both Zenos' regime and stop the Masks from doing something incredibly stupid. Cut to 4.1.

Too hyped for Pokémon tomorrow... I've avoided spoilers as best I can but I sure hope someone picks up that phone when Lusamine turns out to be a G-rated Ragyo Kiryuin...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

It's going to be revealed that the Griffin is Ilberd, and he's going to use Nidhogg's eyes to power Omega and rampage into Ala Mhigo with it. Or something.

For the shades of conflict we're going to get Zenos as a dickbag but #NotAllGarleans, while the Resistance (esp. the Masks) are going to show us they're not really any better. We're going to take down both Zenos' regime and stop the Masks from doing something incredibly stupid. Cut to 4.1.

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Yeah p. likely, but what's interesting to me is which of them are going to survive and stick around? A situation where Ala Mhigo ends up restoring the royal family as figureheads but the sympathetic Garleans continue to actually run things because they are good at that, that could lead to some really fascinating stuff. How would the other nations react to seeing Garleans wanting to join the Eorzean Alliance? What are the Domans going to think if asked to help the Garleans in their own rebellion against their Emperor? Stuff like that.

It's interesting to me that so many people want more sympathetic Garleans, that two we already have in our repertoire are being a bit over looked. We have both Cid and Lucia on our side, and for Eorzea.

Cid wanting to bring the same level of Garlean tech to all of Eorzea and possibly all of Hydaelyn, as well as Lucia who is definitely devoted to Ishgard and now the Eorzean Alliance. I have a feeling these two could possibly be two very important key factors in our attempt at peace and even infiltration towards Garlemald and the Garleans as a whole.

Who knows, we might already have our Garlean Larsa?

Speaking of Larsa's and Vayne's (what Moose said earlier) I think we might have those already for Ala Mihgo though. I keep thinking about it more and more and if... "if" Ilberd turns out to be the actual Griffin that might be our Vayne for Ala Mihgo, while Yda or anyone connected to her could most likely turn out to be our Larsa for Ala Mihgo... just my 2 gil. :3

I was most surprised at the Widargelt stuff. Considering he's the FORMER PRINCE OF ALA MHIGO, surely he must play some role in the expansion centered around re-taking his homeland...? Maybe Yoshida's just playing dumb.

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

It's interesting to me that so many people want more sympathetic Garleans, that two we already have in our repertoire are being a bit over looked. We have both Cid and Lucia on our side, and for Eorzea.

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Well, I'm sure he'll elaborate himself, but for those like Theo, Cid and Lucia don't count - they've betrayed their homeland completely, and thus are missing the "Garlean" aspect of "sympathetic Garlean". The kind they want is somebody who is loyal to Garlemald but still sympathetic/likable (along the lines of Gaius), and/or something or somebody to blur the lines of their Evil Empire schtick.

While I don't personally take any offense at Lucia and Cid for leaving their conquest-hungry homeland, I definitely wouldn't be opposed to this either. Shades of gray are always nice. That said, I think it's much more likely that we'll get sympathetic characters than see the Empire as a whole become more sympathetic.

I'd like to splice in an addendum to an earlier thought. The "timeline" bit.

It's possible that Yoshida-san just means that because the "present day" of the game is Version 3.45, and we're seeing a scene from Version 4.00, in a manner of speaking, we're seeing the future. By comparing what we know is happening "now" to what it looks like is happening "then", we can start to narrow down our speculation of what we think might happen in the future. For people who've been playing since the very beginning, something about this future should stand out, so get to speculating.

I'm not fond of Lucia or Cid because they don't 'feel' Garlean to me. They rarely speak of their homeland, people or culture and when they do it's almost always negative. It doesn't feel very realistic to me at all. The 'defector' trope is often just used as a cheap cop out to put something that the 'big bad' has on the side of the 'good guys' and then somehow eventually have it work out as superior in the end. Which, to me, is just boring. I want Garlemald to be morally complex with a mixed bag of characters that we either fight against or work alongside.

The story can't really afford to push too far in one direction, making things as simple as 'most of Garlemald is evil' and 'almost every protagonist is justified and pure'. I think it's fair to say that there's a considerable number of people who would prefer Garlemald to not just be a generic big bad. I've seen quite a lot of people stating that they find the Scions to be stereotypical and 'simple' - and no doubt there's others who feel the same way about Garlemald.

This was the most interesting part of the interview for me:

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F: I heard you are about to start recording voice acting.

Y: Voice acting recording will start soon. Please wait for future announcements to find out which characters will appear. Estinien won’t disappear just like that. He’s also a Dragoon, which we don’t have in the Scions. Personally, I would like for him to join the Scions, but considering his personality, even if he were invited by Alphinaud, he wouldn’t join just like that.

F: That is true.

Y: He would answer with “I hate being in crowds”. Therefore, we plan on developing him into a character that can accept an invitation like that. Whatever the case is, there will be instances where you will interact with him.

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It seems Yoshida is confirming that Eistinien will join the Scions eventually, but he first needs to go through another character development arc to lose the 'lone wolf' attitude he has.

On 'popping the time bubble': Derplander doesn't really look that much older to me??? He looks more rugged, but that's kind of to be expected if he's spent time with a ragtag resistance in the wilderness?

Yoshida said that the teaser trailer was only showing the future in 'some sense.' He also mentioned the story timeline is still in the '3.x' series. I think what he means by future is not literally 'forward in time', but future as in 'further into the story.' We're glimpsing Derplander some time after 4.0 starts, when he's been fighting with the Ala Mihgan resistance for a bit, and is having friendly sparring match with whoever that woman in red is.

I don't think the time bubble will pop. And if there's any kind of timeskip, it can't be any more then a few weeks/months. As we saw at the end of 3.4, things are being set in motion. I don't think it will take even a month in-game time for any of those plots to develop. Yoshida confirmed the Ascians are still working behind the scenes, and so long as they are consistently active like they have been, we can't have much of a timeskip without potentially skipping over bits of plot. And that's without getting into all the other potential complications...

I think the biggest argument against a timeskip, though, is that if more then a couple of years pass, they would likely have to change the character model of the twins since they will inevitable grow a bit. And Alisaie literally *just* got a new model thanks to her clothing change. I'd like to think we're going to spend at least one expansion with her like that.

EDIT: And I was ninja'd by Moose on the story timeline thing...

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Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

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I wasn't actually directing my reply to him specifically, but to the thread and the forums as a whole. Most people were actually looking forward to Zeno being our "Larsa" (I love that being a thing now! FFXII FOR LIFE! <3) of sorts, and now with this description of us not being able to sympathize with him at all straight from Yoshi's mouth. I can see why most people would be up in arms about it, but like I said we already have two very nice sympathetic Garleans on our side (for Eorzea), and I feel we shouldn't count them out of the loop just yet.

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

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I'm a huge fan of FFXII (tied with IX as being my favourite out of the main titles and Vagrant Story/FF Tactics for the sake of more wonderful Ivalice intrigue). I'm reluctant to consider Lucia or Cid as anything near to Larsa in terms of attitude or depth. A lot of Larsa's charm, in my opinion, was down to him not defecting and turning against his homeland or his people. He merely turned against the bad apples (which happened to be his own brother along with the more ruthless Judges/soldiers).

He worked alongside the game's protagonists but he also worked alongside the game's antagonists (some of whom were actually protagonists as well - such as Drace and Gabranth) for the betterment of not only Archades but Dalmasca and the surrounding regions too.

Neither Cid or Lucia boast any of that depth as far as I'm concerned. They no longer have any stakes in Garlemald - they've turned their backs upon it and their people.

In addition to the Garlean stuff, though, let's not forget that 3.5 will be the closing chapter in the Mhach storyline. I've loved the first two raids in the series so I'm looking forward to the finale which should be equally as eerily beautiful. I think it's a fair bet to suggest that Ferdiad and Diabolos are going to be dealt with there. I do wonder where the next chapter will be set though.

On Estinien...I like that they recognise his need for further development before he can join the Scions. At the same time I think a lot of his core charm is in his current attitude. Some characters are just loners - and a diverse, varied cast that may cause conflict for one another when certain combinations of characters are around strikes me as more fun than them all getting along happily and adoring each other's presence.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

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I'm not entirely sure I can agree with you. We have yet to see Cid at least, make any proclamations towards denouncing ALL of Garlemald as a whole. (Unless there is something more about it in the Lore book, which I don't have, and have been actively doing my best not to spoil myself on a lot of it till I can get one.) Personally he's my best bet at being our "Larsa" or just ambassador into the gates of Garlemald as it stands right now.

Naturally I'm sure we'll get a much more appropriate character most likely that would fill this spot easier, depending on what the Devs have in store for us for when that time comes.

I only mention Lucia cause, as far as in game goes (again no Lore book yet, idk if I'm wrong.) She seems to have some kind off ties to Garlemald obviously, and aside from LuciaxAymeric shippers and her actual devotion to him and Ishgard we don't know too much about her stance of her home or how she feels about it in a political or personal sense. We got nice back story between her, her sister Livia, and of course their childhood somewhat. Honestly I feel if they wanted to go further with her character development she would be the best candidate to date for that.

I only really single out Cid because he's been with us the longest (1.XX as well), and I could see a clamoring for him to be our ambassador. But I could potentially see it being Lucia IF more progression is made towards the restructure of Ishgard being closer to what the system wants by the time it comes for us to make a move into Garlemald itself.

Of course most of this is just off the top of my mind, and if I am missing something, I'm sorry. I have a bad memory at times, and I try my best to remember everything clearly, but as usually the case I forget something.

To be honest, Zenos being a sympathetic wouldn't make him different from what already exists. We have had very few antagonists who at the very least don't have a solid justification for their actions, even if they are misguided. Having a villain who is just a cruel and evil personality is actually somewhat different.

I would say two things about this.

1. Having an really evil character as a villain can be fun. More over there is nothing saying he will be our only enemy. We had several antagonists we had to contend with in HW. I suspect we will have a number of players we are caught between again.

2. Zenos being a villain, or even Varis being a villain, doesn't mean we won't have sympathetic Garleans. More over Garleans who aren't neccesarily loyal to either of those doesn't mean they won't feel loyal to Garlemald itself. Being loyal to Garlemald doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as loyalty to its current ruler.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

To be honest, Zenos being a sympathetic wouldn't make him different from what already exists. We have had very few antagonists who at the very least don't have a solid justification for their actions, even if they are misguided. Having a villain who is just a cruel and evil personality is actually somewhat different.

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This is really true, even the Ascians are starting to get shades of grey at this point.

Though on the "Where's our Vayne character" issue, Zenos is almost certainly Varis' eldest child and I'm sure everyone remembers what happened between Vayne and his older brothers. If Zenos needs to be put down like a rabid dog we may not even be the ones who carry out the deed.

I do kinda like Estinien and I kinda like him for his attitude because it makes for a great deal of different characters. I have nothing against character growth but I hope that it wont mean that its barely Estinien anymore..(and yes even though I like him I am a little salty that it feels like he gets more screentime because Yoshida likes him..while all the other interesting characters got killed off..I am happy that he is alive but still..hopefully it wont mean that they just make him endearing to us to have another Haurchefant 2.0..)

Hm it being a hint towards seeing into the future or having a time skip is kinda interesting (but kinda out of nowhere if we can suddenly look into the future too..like why was you not able to do that when it was crucial to save a certain someone?)
Maybe this will be kinda a echo version of the past but instead of just being there and watching our echo grows strong enough so that we can actually interact with people in the vision?

I do love the more grey enemies because you will often find yourself in a inner conflict..because you can kinda sympathize with them. I am not sure if I will like Zenos..

I wonder if Cyril is still around? I'm curious as to her thoughts on Elidibus and how things will play out with him in 3.5! :p

Eureka was announced, but entirely devoid of context, so I'm not sure how I can feel about it. My original theory years back was that it would open up as optional content after Syrcus Tower was used for plot purposes, but the only indirect continuity we've gotten out of it since came from the very end of 3.4, and Nero's still too much of an unknown to say. Since they've announced the 2.X and 3.X patch-series stories will be skippable, maybe they'll just bite the bullet and make CT an additional requirement for whatever quest ties the Triad back into the MSQ (and thus include it in the "skip"), since this will probably be the last patch cycle where it can be cleared through DF. That would also let them drop it as a hard requirement for Eureka without having to write Eureka like the former never happened. The alternative is the Estinien card, where he addresses you like you've done 30-50 DRG even if you haven't. Either way, it's not something that can be left alone anymore.

But Yoshida has been playing the entire thing way too close to his chest. I'm hoping that's because there's actually something that he can't be trusted to keep secret if he talks.

I wonder if Garleans will (or already are) experiment on beast tribes and/or other creatures like the Allagans have? They've already built a Castrum in Azys Lla, so surely they're going to learn more about their experiments and the Garleans are all about emulating the Allagans. Maybe it's being done under Xenos' orders? That's a sure-fire way to make him dislikeable.

I am looking forward to knowmore about Garlean ideology. The 1.0 lodestone info about Garlemal Empire (that no longer exist) mentions that they were trying to prevent a Calamity.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

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I'd definitely like to see side story content addressed and referenced during the MSQ's. I feel like at this point if they're going to add a way to skip large portions of the game then the developers should just design the MSQ's for those of us who aren't going to skip content and will lap up everything that they give us. It'd be a real shame if something like Mhach, for instance, is just lost in its own little bubble and never mentioned again...especially if we end up having to take down more denizens of the Void later on during the MSQ's or other side stories which seems likely.

Well, let's see... 3.4 was a reflection on what had happened thus far and I believe we will see us leaving Ishgard to travel back to Ul'Dah. Then, in 3.5 Part 2 (almost a guarantee), we will see the events that actually send us straight to Ala Mhigo.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'd definitely like to see side story content addressed and referenced during the MSQ's.

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The implications are huge if you consider Cloud of Darkness and Scathach could quite possibly be people Unukulhai once knew. But it's far more likely that never the twain shall meet. Which is also the source of my eternal Allagan lament.

We really need something big to make us believe in the story's ability to follow-through again.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

One day we'll get our Larsa, I'm sure. At this point, wishing ill for the entire Empire is wishing for two continents to be thrown into upheaval. We and the Garleans share a common goal: the salvation of the world. It's everything about how to achieve that goal that we disagree on. But the Empire has been heading down the same path as Allag, and are making some of the same mistakes. We need only purge certain factions and points of view to make peace with the Garleans ... after a satisfying conflict, I hope. I mean, I'm lukewarm excited for our "Larsa", and all, but what about our "Vayne"? I've been so focused on my high hopes for Elidibus as one of the apex antagonists that I've barely considered it!

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One of my biggest irritations with the whole "Both we and the Garleans want to save the world" thing is that the Garleans are so mind-bogglingly BAD at it. Pretty much every effort they make toward saving the world puts it in critical danger... Openly declaring genocide on the beast tribes causes an unprecedented surge of Primals. Dropping a moon on Eorzea triggers a world-ending calamity (thankfully, mitigated). Fielding Ultima Weapon results in it going out of control due to their lack of understanding of its nature (something of which the Ascians were only too glad to take advantage). The Garleans goal to harness the Warring Triad hasn't resulted in a catastrophe yet (unless you count their delaying us to the point where Thordan was able to achieve his goals relatively unhindered), but the storyline isn't over yet and I fully expect Regula to manage to trigger SOME kind of apocalyptic scenario before it's done. Cuz that's how Garleans roll, yo.

And yet in spite of their hilariously incompetent track record they seem blithely unaware of it to the point where they aren't even willing to entertain the notion that they are at fault for any of the near-disasters. This goes beyond mere evil empire arrogance and straight into the realm of comical stupidity. The stage is certainly set for a sympathetic Garlean faction to emerge - and all they really need to be is a subset of Garleans with sufficient political power who finally realize that the current leaders seem hell-bent on addressing every problem in such a way that they wind up unleashing powers that will destroy everyone, themselves included.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

3) Regarding the teaser trailer, Yoshi-P said "Players who have been following the scenario from 1.0 will notice that something is 'off'". My favourite theory on this one comes from Reddit, which is that because the Derplander seems to have aged again we're about to see another time-skip (Gracious Althyk, grant us your blessing, save us from this time bubble).

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I honestly assumed he meant about the entire "mystery blonde girl" in the trailer. And the speculation of her being Yda. Hinting to those that played 1.0, knowing what kind of hairstyle Yda has under the turban. And the missing neck tatoos in the trailer

On the topic of "lone wolf" Estinien, I think it's a mistake to pigeonhole him so neatly. He really is quite a remarkable character in how he defies the stereotypes associated with him! Time and again, he's surprised me by behaving like a sensible human being, whereas his character type would normally make all kinds of irrational decisions. Just a few of the ways in which he defies the vengeance-obsessed lone wolf tropes:

- He wants vengeance against Nidhogg - and ONLY Nidhogg. He does not discriminate against other dragons, in spite of the fact that nearly the entire nation of Ishgard does.
- He's willing to behave in a civil (if snarky) fashion around Ysayle, in spite of the fact that she allies herself with dragons (and, at one time, with Nidhogg himself).
- He recognizes the failings of his superiors, who are at least somewhat corrupt, in spite of the fact that they provide him with tools and authority to hunt the target of his vengeance, and does not show them blind loyalty.
- At no point does he declare that we're holding him back, only to go off on his own and get his butt handed to him.
- As a corollary, when we finally do face Nidhogg, he does not even for a moment entertain the thought of taking on the Wyrm alone. He has no insistence that he be the only one to defeat him; as long as Nidhogg gets dead, it's all fine by him.

So many opportunities for eye-rollingly pointless drama averted! My hat is definitely off to the writers at SE for the development of Estinien's character. I never expected it - particularly since, pre-Heavensward, he DID show a few of these regrettable traits during the Dragoon job questline (arguably, due to Nidhogg's influence through the Eye, something he apparently managed to get under control by the time Heavensward rolled around).

I wouldn't say the Garleans are 'incompetent' given that they took control of much of Hydaelyn within a rather short period of time. By all accounts that is a very impressive feat. The issue is that they're not allowed to be successful when faced directly in the plot - because the Warrior of Light is often written as winning pretty much every battle he participates in. The same can - arguably - be said of the leaders of the city states and other major protagonists. It's hard for the game's antagonists to accomplish anything when they're reduced to being thwarted at almost every turn.

As for the likes of Gaius' campaign and the Calamity it's worth noting that both weren't necessarily backed by Garlemald as a whole. We'll - hopefully - see some more moderate and successful Garleans advancing their cause as we move forward with the story. With how 4.0 is set up that'll be the perfect time for such a thing to occur.

As for Estinien? He's one of my favourite characters as well. I hope we see more of him moving forward and I also hope we get more morally grey characters that we end up befriending and working alongside during our character's travels. Even if it's just a temporary affair.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I wouldn't say the Garleans are 'incompetent' given that they took control of much of Hydaelyn within a rather short period of time.

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This is part of the problem, and a big component as to why I think the Garleans were very poorly presented in the storyline. We know that Garlemand has conquered most of the planet in the backstory - but their consistent failure in the present story makes it a hard backstory to swallow. I know that the Garleans were a bit scarier in 1.0, but sadly (or happily) I wasn't around for that unfortunate stage of this game's life.

Also, being helpless before the WoL's indomitability is only part of the problem - the storyline makes it clear that even if they HAD curbstomped the WoL (especially if they had, in fact), the plans they were working on STILL would have blown up in their faces in a big way. If Nael had succeeded in crashing Dalamud, Bahamut still would have hatched (and this WAS supported by the higher-ups, albeit indirectly; Gaius protested Nael's project, but was overruled, indicating that the folks in charge had Nael's back), only nobody would have been alive to curb the dragon's wrath. The Ascians would have gotten Gaius's Ultima Weapon to go berserk eventually - it was a big part of the reason they led him to it in the first place, after all.

So, really, the problem is in three parts: The Garleans can't win, the tactics the Garleans choose to try to win are ludicrously self-destructive, and the Garleans won't acknowledge that their methods are ludicrously self-destructive.

I feel like the Garleans being in way over there head is kinda the point. Like the second they get to Eorzea the depth of what there dealing with changes. They get used and toyed with by factions who understand whats going on WAY better then them. There not used to a place like it, so they make wayyy more mistakes.

Meanwhile Thordan knows way more and does a lot of damage with way less time and is never a puppet

I kinda feel like Garlemald's incompetence is being a bit over-stated, here; the only times that they as a nation have outright failed, it's been to circumstances far beyond their actual control. They had no reason to expect Midgardsormr at Silvertear, nor for Dalamud to contain Bahamut. And, since then, they've been holding off on the Eorzean campaign entirely (Gaius being effectively rogue in ARR), choosing to wait until they have a solid method of dealing with the Primals before starting to throw troops at it again. Far from "ludicrously self-destructive", they're playing it safe until they're sure they have a winning hand.

Obviously, they can't win, narrative-wise. But I think the story has done a reasonable job of placing them in the position they're in without being at odds with their otherwise world-conqueror nature.

The thing is, even if Bahamut wasn't in Dalamud, they still tried to bring down an entire moon and there is simply no scenario where that was going to end well. They may have even lucked out on having Dalamud turn out to have a creamy Bahamut filling - if it had been a real moon the entire planet may have suffered even more from consequences such as the entire oxygen cycle slowing down due to more sluggish ocean currents.

Also, their aforementioned disastrous policy of dealing with the Beast Tribes remains entirely on them.

It does remain to be seen how much of the blame is on the sick and aging Solus zos Galvus, though. He doesn't seem to have been making many good choices towards the end of his reign, given the succession crisis and all.

The Garleans issue isn't incompetence as much as over confidence. They take dangerous and often reckless actions which either are potentially very high risk or open to critical sabotage. Much of this is due to a hubris and arrogant certainty in their ability. They see the Allag and the great heights they achieved, but the current culture doesn't seem to have picked up on the mistakes the Allag made that lead to its downfall.

The Garleans come across as driven, creative, industrious and very pragmatic. The biggest thing that keeps us from working with them is their arrogance, hubris and annoying obsession with conquering everyone. If we can work with Ishgard we can work with Garlemald.

As a random aside, here's the direct quote from the lore book regarding the Garlean flag:

'The emblem upon the Garlean flag is a chain in abstract design. It symbolizes the value the native sons and daughters of Garlemald hold dear: tight unity amongst their small number. In like fashion, the crimson of the central link represents all those who have perished in the name of the Garlean people.'

So there is most definitely more to much of Garlemald than meets the eye and they're not all as arrogant as they're unfortunately portrayed as due to getting very little screentime outside of combat scenarios. It may also explain Gaius' beliefs and motivations - a belief system that, if tweaked, could easily result in Garlemald and Eorzea working together as allies.

With the Warriors of Darkness we saw friendly interactions amongst antagonists so hopefully we'll be seeing more of that with Garlemald too.

As for another passage of worth to quote:

'The Garlean people officially banded together in 922 of the Sixth Astral Era. Many small villages existed before then, but none developed overmuch due to occasional raids by other more-established tribes of northern Ilsabard. To raise themselves from this base existence, one town named itself the center, and the others were brought into the fold through negotiation and force. This, the Garlemald Republic, had but one goal: to unite its people in order to stave off foreign aggression.'

It goes on the describe their survival being 'no small task' and that in 'desperation' they used every tactic available to them. Now, obviously this isn't great and it's led to corruption in itself but it should shed light on the simple fact that Garlemald has become a giant force to be reckoned with as a direct result of being pushed around back when it was a small, humble nation. At the moment, though, none of this is currently brought up in-game so most people likely believe Garlemald to be a generic evil force - which makes it super frustrating for those of us who guessed all along that there was much more to Garlemald than initially assumed.

It gets even more interesting when you consider the next passage I'm going to quote:

'In ages past, the Garleans were expelled from the relative warmth of lands to the south of the realm-dividing central mountain range. After crossing the treacherous peaks, they had no choice but to settle in the bleak northern reaches of the continent.'

So not only were they driven out of more fertile, warm lands and forced to survive in a land of bitter cold and fewer resources but...does this not mean that they technically have a claim to whatever land they were forced out of? A lot of people seem to sympathise with the Ala Mhigans for being forced out of their territory but the Garleans have had a harder time of it for much, much longer.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Garlean Empire didn't have humble origins. EVERY nation has humble origins; none pops into existence as a sprawling, global power. (Though, I suppose, Israel comes close.)

While they may have started as a small nation that got bullied by its neighbors, the fact that after it grew into a ginormous nation it started bullying ITS neighbors removes any potential sympathy I might have had for them. It's clear that they're after more than just the lands they were originally forced out of. And even if that's all they wanted... well whether they actually have the right to conquer a people who have lived on lands for generations, simply because the lands they live on once belonged to Garleans in ages past, is quite the debate in and of itself.

The fact that they were forced into harsher climes and became a technological superpower is interesting, to be sure, and reflects some theories in real life as to why Europe was where modern technology has most of its roots.