Paladin Suggestion!

I doubt I'm the only one who's noticed this but Paladins holding hate can be a bit rough at the lower levels if you're matched with high level DPS who rip hate simply by doing their job. I myself watch my own enmity meter in low dungeons as anything other than a tank to not cause that for others.

I'm simply suggestion that Paladins get the ability to cross-class Overpower from Warriors.

Always seemed off that both Warrior and Dark Knight gain access to their AoE damage dealing and enmity gaining skills both at a low level, on top of being able to use flash from Paladin who doesn't get another until way later. This idea popped up somewhere else under the discussion that Shield Oath and Sword Oath should be swapped and I'm not too sure what people here think about the whole thing with under-leveled PLDs and maintaining aggro, but this seemed like a pretty reasonable way not make drastic changes and still bump up their performance.

low level PLD holds hate better and more efficiently than WAR with OP.
The amount of flashes you can spam before you need to use Riot Blade to restore it will give you more than enough of a lead in AoE pulls, even against BRD or BLM. Both PLD and WAR start losing the Hate race on Sinlge Target. DRK too, but Blood Weapon's "haste" makes it a bit easier on them in that regard.

While I do agree giving PLD more AoE weaponskills to even do AoE damage at all would be a boon to them, I dont think just getting OP would help anything-.PLD already has TP issues in long fights, as they have NO way to restore it like WAR can and can NOT rely on MP for TP to regen like DRK can.

PLD doesnt fall behind in emnity vs a WAR pre-30. OP generates more emnity because it does damage on top, however, PLD can flash more often because of Riot blade. DRK is DRK... blood weapon is a thing.
30-40 is where PLD needs help. it's doable without ShO, but you really feel the difference in Haukke, Brayflox, and Qarn and ESPECIALLY in cutter's cry if youre not quite 40

Maybe when they rework the Cross Class Tank skills, mostly Provoke, they could add a similar AoE skill, like Blitz or something?

I did notice the problem between 30 - 40 as well on my Paladin.
It's not extreme, but you do notice that DPS gets awfully close to the treshhold of the enmity.
Especially when they are top geared. With proper rotations you can cope though if the DPS pays attention.
It all disappears with Shield Oath though.

Some AoE skills would definitely help out on initial pulls on lower levels, although at 50 this is again a non-issue with Circle of Scorn.
Been running quite some dungeons now on my new Paladin and the higher his level the easier it becomes for sure.

All three AoE hate generating skills have the same hate potency. Flash has 600 hate potency, Overpower has 120 attack potency with a multiplier of 5 for hate and Unleash has 100 attack potency with a multiplier of 6 for hate. The difference is the base stat distribution, were WAR and DRK has more attack power then PLD.

If you have no tank stance for all, the difference in holding hate is negligible, the real point of difference comes when DRK and WAR have access to their tank stance and PLD not...just a stupid lore decision imo

I miss War Drums.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Maybe when they rework the Cross Class Tank skills, mostly Provoke, they could add a similar AoE skill, like Blitz or something?

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That and that interview dropping a hint about "some skills being introduced earlier in some cases" or something along those lines. really hoping that means ShO at 30...

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

Some AoE skills would definitely help out on initial pulls on lower levels, although at 50 this is again a non-issue with Circle of Scorn.
Been running quite some dungeons now on my new Paladin and the higher his level the easier it becomes for sure.

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I think it's less about Emnity at lower levels as much as it is just being able to do reliable AoE damage at higher levels. more stuff pulled= more incoming damage. More things dying faster = less damage taken. Circle of scorn being a 100 potency+30 potency DoT(a grand total of 250 potency) on a 25 second cooldown does next to nothing in this regard... it's downright laughable. 250 potecy AoE every 25 seconds? untraited death blossom has higher potency than that over 25 seconds.

PLD just folds when it comes to doing damage to more than 3 targets. we can only multi-DoT up to 3 enemies every 7.5 seconds while only generating emnity every 25 seconds. not ideal compared to WAR with Steel Cyclone/OP(Decimate too, but it doesnt generate extra emnity) and Drk with Unleash/Abyssal Drain

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Originally Posted by Legion88

All three AoE hate generating skills have the same hate potency. Flash has 600 hate potency, Overpower has 120 attack potency with a multiplier of 5 for hate and Unleash has 100 attack potency with a multiplier of 6 for hate. The difference is the base stat distribution, were WAR and DRK has more attack power then PLD.

If you have no tank stance for all, the difference in holding hate is negligible, the real point of difference comes when DRK and WAR have access to their tank stance and PLD not...just a stupid lore decision imo

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OP and Unleash can also crit and are further amplified by Darkside/Deliverance+AP. Flash is still static. In fact, FoF last i knew didn't affect flash at all. In contrast, since OP does damage, it is VERY much boosted by berserk. zerk's OP being 120+60(50% serk boost) x5= 900. Darkside unleash being 100+15(15% darkside boost) x6= 690. This is in addition to the AP between the 3.

So while all 3 have the same potency at base and on paper, Flash DOES fall behind in most cases. The benefit, though, is PLD isnt married to their MP like DRK is or how WAR is to TP, so theyre generally free to use more flashes. Flash only really stays "competitive" here because
A) PLD has nothing else at all
B) Flash's "potency" isnt reduced by ShO like OP or Unleash/AD are in their tank stances.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

OP and Unleash can also crit and are further amplified by Darkside/Deliverance+AP. Flash is still static. In fact, FoF last i knew didn't affect flash at all. In contrast, since OP does damage, it is VERY much boosted by berserk. zerk's OP being 120+60(50% serk boost) x5= 900. Darkside unleash being 100+20(15% darkside boost) x6= 690. This is in addition to the AP between the 3.

So while all 3 have the same potency at base and on paper, Flash DOES fall behind in most cases. The benefit, though, is PLD isnt married to their MP like DRK is or how WAR is to TP, so theyre generally free to use more flashes. Flash only really stays "competitive" here because
A) PLD has nothing else at all
B) Flash's "potency" isnt reduced by ShO like OP or Unleash/AD are in their tank stances.

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Thanks for the clarification, i knew i missed something along the way.

I have an either simpler idea: give Flash a damage component.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

I have an either simpler idea: give Flash a damage component.

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Something I suggested a long time ago is simply swap the oaths

Level 30 unlock shield oath
Level 40 unlock sword oath

Problem solved.

To be honest, I think it's a GOOD idea to put stress on low level tanks. It allows them to practice building enmity while NOT seriously punishing them for failure (since the mobs are so very weak). Losing hate at low levels is a bit embarrassing, but rarely a wipe.

A Paladin that learns good hate management BEFORE Shield Oath is going to be an enmity monster once they get it.

I don't have too many threat issues as Paladin from what I've play so far.

However I have to ask, how do people feel with Shield Bash being part of the GCD? Personally I find it annoying as I usually have used some other ability just before a mob starts casting something that can be interrupted or stunned out of.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Something I suggested a long time ago is simply swap the oaths

Level 30 unlock shield oath
Level 40 unlock sword oath

Problem solved.

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I wouldn't look so much at making adjustments to "story related job/class skills" since that might be more of an undertaking to adjust than we think, cutscenes dialogue, etc. But anything that happens whe you level nodmally might be shuffled for convenience.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

I don't have too many threat issues as Paladin from what I've play so far.

However I have to ask, how do people feel with Shield Bash being part of the GCD? Personally I find it annoying as I usually have used some other ability just before a mob starts casting something that can be interrupted or stunned out of.

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having it on the GCD means you cant stun on-demand. However it means you can stun multiple times in a row, multiple problem targets, and is always up to be used, even if you have to hold your GCD to use it. sometimes the stun is more important than damage. I find it to be the best stun of the 3..... as a stun. not being oGCD means they can't really use it as a DPS tool. oh well.

This is a failing in having too many classes trying to do the same function. They have to spread the abilities out so they can say, "Well X can tank like this, but not like this. However, Y can tank like THIS but....not like this...." You always wind up with a tank that's short of one thing, and heavy in something else. Small wonder what's being called for is a Warrior skill. Do this enough and we'll be like...why have the warrior? Why not have an axe-wielding (two-handed weapon), or a sword and board Paladin?

Not the first game to give the kiddies too much for Christmas. Won't be the last.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

PLD doesnt fall behind in emnity vs a WAR pre-30. OP generates more emnity because it does damage on top, however, PLD can flash more often because of Riot blade. DRK is DRK... blood weapon is a thing.
30-40 is where PLD needs help. it's doable without ShO, but you really feel the difference in Haukke, Brayflox, and Qarn and ESPECIALLY in cutter's cry if youre not quite 40

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It can be done, you just have to stay on top of who is hitting what and throw in a provoke or shield lobe here and there. Sword Oath boosts damage output, so you generate more threat by virtue of that at least.

If there are AoE DDs in the party, rotate targets to spread the hate generation around.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

To be honest, I think it's a GOOD idea to put stress on low level tanks. It allows them to practice building enmity while NOT seriously punishing them for failure (since the mobs are so very weak). Losing hate at low levels is a bit embarrassing, but rarely a wipe.

A Paladin that learns good hate management BEFORE Shield Oath is going to be an enmity monster once they get it.

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Agreed. It teaches better situational awareness. But the main methods are weaving in provokes and shield lobs as needed, rotating targets and paying attention to what the rest of the party is doing and who they are attacking. I actually find it more enjoyable to be doing all of that because it actually feels like I'm doing something. If you can grab hate and maintain it with ease, where is the challenge? I like the challenge.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

having it on the GCD means you cant stun on-demand. However it means you can stun multiple times in a row, multiple problem targets, and is always up to be used, even if you have to hold your GCD to use it. sometimes the stun is more important than damage. I find it to be the best stun of the 3..... as a stun. not being oGCD means they can't really use it as a DPS tool. oh well.

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That's a fair point. I was gonna point out that DRK's Low Blow always seemed to be available; double checked on Low Blow (started out with DRK as my first ever tank and it's been a WHILE... still ilvl 180), and didn't notice the Additional effect on it has a 30% reset.

But as you pointed out, best to keep some differences to differentiate between tanking styles of the classes.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

It can be done, you just have to stay on top of who is hitting what and throw in a provoke or shield lobe here and there. Sword Oath boosts damage output, so you generate more threat by virtue of that at least.

If there are AoE DDs in the party, rotate targets to spread the hate generation around.

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Well you're not wrong, I already said it was DOABLE 30-40. its not impossible. However there's a massive difference between PLD emnity and WAR/DRK emnity level 30-40 due to the lack of emnity granted from Shield Oath.
It's also a little better to dump flashes for AoE. due to RoH combo being, well, on a combo, rotating your combo will only let you really hold onto 3 targets. it's best to flash a few times and then use your combo to focus on the enemies dying quickest/the ones taking the most emnity from the DPS.

Also, just to clarify to OP or any new PLD that come across this. Sword Oath does an additional 75 potency every auto-attack. its not a % increase in damage. However, that extra potency every ~2sec is extra damage done and thus increases emnity by that extra damage dealt, since damage=emnity.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

That's a fair point. I was gonna point out that DRK's Low Blow always seemed to be available; double checked on Low Blow (started out with DRK as my first ever tank and it's been a WHILE... still ilvl 180), and didn't notice the Additional effect on it has a 30% reset.

But as you pointed out, best to keep some differences to differentiate between tanking styles of the classes.

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I did not forget low blow, but as you discovered, its only a 30% chance to reset IF you parry. I would hardly call a % of a % to be "reliable". If only low blow reset 100% off a parry and DRK had a parry version of Sheltron, eh? Low Blow is still a little better than Brutal Swing though, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

Well you're not wrong, I already said it was DOABLE 30-40. its not impossible. However there's a massive difference between PLD emnity and WAR/DRK emnity level 30-40 due to the lack of emnity granted from Shield Oath.
It's also a little better to dump flashes for AoE. due to RoH combo being, well, on a combo, rotating your combo will only let you really hold onto 3 targets. it's best to flash a few times and then use your combo to focus on the enemies dying quickest/the ones taking the most emnity from the DPS.

Also, just to clarify to OP or any new PLD that come across this. Sword Oath does an additional 75 potency every auto-attack. its not a % increase in damage. However, that extra potency every ~2sec is extra damage done and thus increases emnity by that extra damage dealt, since damage=emnity.

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Absolutely, my apologies, I wasn't meaning to contradict you, but unfortunately that's how it sounds when I read my post back to myself. I definitely recognize it's harder than it is for WAR/DRK. That said, I think that the extra effort and thought that get's put in in order to manage aggro in that 30-40 gap for Paladin makes you a better tank. I agree about the role of flash. Flash is a skill that is easy to forget mid-fight, but it's really important. I should probably havd added a line of advice to my earlier post;

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...and Flash your butt off...

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What you say about watching which enemies are dying fastest and focusing aggro there since you're more likely to lose it there is really good advice.

I do something similar on Scholar when sprinkling in my DoTs, many times I need to throw a heal at the tank in the middle of setting the DoTs to be spread. So I target one of the mobs which has taken less damage than the one the tank is focusing on, set the DoTs and spread them. If everyone is following the tank's lead, the primary target may die before I can spread the Dots, wasting the time and MP. I think that the awareness to monitor the targets like that came from working hard as a Paladin during the dark times when almost anything could out damage and out aggro a Paladin who was not on top of things - especially without Shield Oath.

Simple fix for flash is to simply double enmity produced and make the blind only build reset when it reapplied I.e. Doesn't resist duration. I don't think flash should do damage all tanks should be unique as possible and AOE enmity is one way they are unique. Flash shouldn't be cross-class warriors can tank fine with OP if anything maybe lower TP cost.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

All three AoE hate generating skills have the same hate potency.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

low level PLD holds hate better and more efficiently than WAR with OP.

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Everyone who makes these statements never take into consideration that....

WAR and DRK use *damage* in their threat generation.

PLD uses a pointless spell.

How WAR can boost their *damage* thus gain more threat:
Berserk lv.22
Maim lv.18

Plus Defiance at level 30, which directly increases enmity, as well as:
Unchained lv. 40
....negating the penalty from defiance damage loss.
Single target attacks to gain threat from damage which is enhanced by maim and berserk:
Brutal Swing Lv. 10

How DRK can boost their *damage* thus gain more threat:
Dark Side lv. 30

Plus Grit at level 30, which directly increases enmity, as well as:
Single target attacks to gain threat from damage which is enhanced by Dark Side:
Low Blow lv. 10
Reprisal lv. 22
Dark Passenger lv. 40
Dark Arts to enhance multiple attacks lv. 45

PLD?

Flash lv. 8
Shield Swipe lv. 30
(Enhanced by Flight or Flight lv. 6)

No way to boost flash at all whatsoever ...

until level 40 with shield oath.



Recap:
WAR
Brutal Swing lv. 10
Maim lv. 18
Berserk lv 22
Defiance lv. 30
Unchained lv 40

DRK
Low Blow lv. 10
Reprisal lv. 22
Dark Side lv 30
Grit lv. 30
Dark Passenger lv. 40
Dark Arts lv. 45

PLD
Shield Swipe lv. 30 (FoF lv. 6)
Shield Oath lv. 40



"But paladin flash has the same threat potency generation as overpower and unleash."

Doesnt mean anything when it cant be enchanced until 10 levels after the other two tanks, and is 2 or more ways of enhancing it short of the other two tanks....



Paladin is the only melee fighter in the game with less than 2 combos at level 50, and no area of effect weaponskill at all. (Circle of scorn is not a weaponskill.)

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

Everyone who makes these statements never take into consideration that....

WAR and DRK use *damage* in their threat generation.

PLD uses a pointless spell.

...

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If you're going to quote me in such a way to "correct" me on a point, at least follow through in the same post or later points. I've already "taken into consideration" what you're saying here.

Also, I said that flash is more EFFICIENT AT LOW LEVELS than Overpower. You're trying to correct me on how flash has less effective emnity (which I already brought up). However, YOU'RE not accounting for how many flashes a paladin can use compared to how many times WAR can use OP. using flash 6 times is more emnity than using boosted OP 3 times (3600 vs 3060). WAR has severe TP issues until they get equilibrium at...what? 56? 58? Meanwhile a PLD has riot blade to grant them more Flashes. Drk further has more efficiency because blood weapon and syphon strike stack AND they get blood price.

The only argument here at this point is the fact that said 6 flashes did 0 damage while the WAR did more AoE damage. Yes. PLD is lacking AoE damage... heck, damage in general. beat the dead horse. However, since Flash is their only AoE option, it's what theyre going to use regardless. Flash is less emnity per use, but is able to be used much more often. that's why Flash keeps up.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

If you're going to quote me in such a way to "correct" me on a point, at least follow through in the same post or later points. I've already "taken into consideration" what you're saying here.

Also, I said that flash is more EFFICIENT AT LOW LEVELS than Overpower. You're trying to correct me on how flash has less effective emnity (which I already brought up). However, YOU'RE not accounting for how many flashes a paladin can use compared to how many times WAR can use OP. using flash 6 times is more emnity than using boosted OP 3 times (3600 vs 3060). WAR has severe TP issues until they get equilibrium at...what? 56? 58? Meanwhile a PLD has riot blade to grant them more Flashes. Drk further has more efficiency because blood weapon and syphon strike stack AND they get blood price.

The only argument here at this point is the fact that said 6 flashes did 0 damage while the WAR did more AoE damage. Yes. PLD is lacking AoE damage... heck, damage in general. beat the dead horse. However, since Flash is their only AoE option, it's what theyre going to use regardless. Flash is less emnity per use, but is able to be used much more often. that's why Flash keeps up.

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Not trying to correct you.

I just dont see the point in saying flash has the same potency threat generation as overpower and unleash. Its not applicable in any situation. Youre not "tanking" things at level 8.

Also i'm not sure when enemies are alive long enough to completely run out of TP on WAR or DRK that you cant have enough threat to start single targeting to conserve said tp.

Personally, i feel DRK is the best at holding threat at any level while doing damage to help defeat the enemies that are attacking you. Which defeating an enemy is the best defense, seeing as the faster they die, the less amount of time they can hit you.

Which makes the PLD has a shield argument a little silly in my opinion. (Cause if a WAR or DRK can main tank it, why take a paladin?)

All i was trying to do was point out PLD cannot enhance flash.

Entire thread in a nutshell:

Switch Shield and Sword oath levels
Tweak flash slightly to keep up with Drk/War indirect enmity buffs(darkside, berserk, etc)
Sword oath is a 75 potency dot with no set duration(as long as you're targeting the mob, you're hitting it with a 75 potency dot)
Riot Blade and CoS is our lord and savior
Shield Swipe potency nerf was unneccesary(from 210 to 150)
Paladin still has the lowest skill cap of the three tanks
Decimate and Fell Cleave ignore tank rules and still somehow generate enough enmity to hold agro for some time