Let's Discuss: Weekly Limits

This is one of the biggest complains i see especially Weekly Tomestone cap, and people are afraid it will happen all over again with 4.0.


So, what can be done to fix this?

Can you elaborate on what the complaints are?

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Originally Posted by SessionZero

Can you elaborate on what the complaints are?

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Login just to get the weekly tomes and logout, repeat next week, that's what i've been reading, and while i don't do that Weekly Tomes are indeed frustrating.

I know some people who quit because of this.

Is the complaint really that the tomes are capped, or that the tome grind exists at all? I've seen much more of the latter, much less of the former. I actually like that it's capped. I can just do my expert roullete every day instead of feeling obligated to grind like hell to get the full gearset as soon as possible.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

Login just to get the weekly tomes and logout, repeat next week, that's what i've been reading, and while i don't do that Weekly Tomes are indeed frustrating.

I know some people who quit because of this.

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That sounds less like a complaint with the tome cap limit and more of an issue with the other content in the game. If you're only logging in to grind tomes and then logging out again without doing anything else I don't think removing any sort of caps is going to alleviate the issue.

I hope they continue to have weekly caps. Otherwise you would grind to get your gear in the first week and be done with it.

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Originally Posted by SessionZero

That sounds less like a complaint with the tome cap limit and more of an issue with the other content in the game.

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How so? The weekly tome limit is a cheap attempt at not making more end game content, so they lock us into 450 tomes per week so we can't grind, even if we get pieces from Savage we're still limited there, along with the Tomestone gear that's needed for BiS.

All of this to be useless in 6 months, repeat.

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Originally Posted by SessionZero

If you're only logging in to grind tomes and then logging out again without doing anything else I don't think removing any sort of caps is going to alleviate the issue.

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Where did i mention I login to just do tomes? I said i've seen people saying that and can even provide links to that, can no one on this forum learn to read things right for once? Jesus Christ.

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Originally Posted by FyrmurlFloerasksyn

I hope they continue to have weekly caps. Otherwise you would grind to get your gear in the first week and be done with it.

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I guess you never played an Horizontal progression game then.

I would prefer a great many things:.

1. Tomestones are not the only one avenue to obtain gear - gear drops come from mobs, quests, chests that all have a chance at giving you something relevant for your ilvl

2. Tomestones are not capped on earning, but are rather capped on spending per job. For example, you can spend 450 scripture tomestones on SMN this week, and another 450 on SCH if you so choose - and you can gain as much as you like.

3. Weekly limits have roll overs, for example, if I miss a week, I can catch up on my missed cap the following week and not be behind the rest of my raid team

4. Distribution of Tomestones be spread out a little better. Currently, nothing gives nearly anything the same as expert - this encourages one to run expert only and the 2 new dungeons become boring quite quickly. Xelphatol? Takes 15 minutes (give or take) and you get 50 tomestones vs A12N which takes 10 minutes and gives you 10.

5. Explore the option of making tomestones trade-able, if a cap is put on spending, this would not give anyone an unfair advantage. However, it may open up more possibilities to obtain tomestones. It also could help address the issue, where if someone is away for some reason, they can have a friend get them and trade them over. It also could potentially add to the economy.

In the end, though, I'd rather they just scrap tomestones and replicate WoW's itemization and reward structure.

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Originally Posted by Chalbee

Is the complaint really that the tomes are capped, or that the tome grind exists at all? I've seen much more of the latter, much less of the former. I actually like that it's capped. I can just do my expert roullete every day instead of feeling obligated to grind like hell to get the full gearset as soon as possible.

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I hate the grind. I wish there were more effective means of capping. Doing the same two dungeons over and over for months gets really old really fast, and then you hate them forever after that. I still have nightmares about neverreap and fractal continuum.

What i want, if we're going to continue on the endless grind cycle, is alternate and viable means of capping tomes. Something, anything other than two dungeons. Don't get me wrong, the dungeons are beautiful and well put together, but i'm so tired of them.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

-angry snip- .

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It was a general "you," not referring to you specifically, apologies for the misconception. That said, down boy. You said you wanted a discussion, so I'm discussing, but I'm less inclined to do so when you fly off the handle over a miscommunication.

And it certainly is an issue with other content rather than tome caps. If they remove the weekly limit then people will grind out their tomes and then... what? If they're not motivated to go do other content after capping for the week now, how are they going to be any more motivated to do so if they can achieve a full set of 260 even faster?

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Originally Posted by Averax

I hate the grind. I wish there were more effective means of capping. Doing the same two dungeons over and over for months gets really old really fast, and then you hate them forever after that. I still have nightmares about neverreap and fractal continuum.

What i want, if we're going to continue on the endless grind cycle, is alternate and viable means of capping tomes. Something, anything other than two dungeons. Don't get me wrong, the dungeons are beautiful and well put together, but i'm so tired of them.

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CoughPalaceOfTheDeadCough. Seriously, it's a pretty fun way to cap tomes and with the new floors being added I imagine going from 1-200 could potentially be enough to get you to like 3/4 or even capped tomestones.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

How so? The weekly tome limit is a cheap attempt at not making more end game content, so they lock us into 450 tomes per week so we can't grind, even if we get pieces from Savage we're still limited there, along with the Tomestone gear that's needed for BiS.

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He means that you'd be doing the exact same thing anyway, and likely complain about how watered down the experience is because you're doing the same old same old. Burn out is real, especially with the ignorance that plagues most teens and adults these days.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

I guess you never played an Horizontal progression game then.

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Horizontal progression is often plagued by RNG gods, significantly more than it is here. I have a feeling that most players are not willing to go back to it or experience that at all. They're also often centered around some means to spawn or play the long waiting game to get a chance at that gear (waiting for mob spawn following ToD or waiting for raid reset).

Also keep in mind that this game is not tailored to horizontal progression, so that statement you replied to about the tomes is actually applicable. It's about what is, rather than what could be.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

How so? The weekly tome limit is a cheap attempt at not making more end game content, so they lock us into 450 tomes per week so we can't grind, even if we get pieces from Savage we're still limited there, along with the Tomestone gear that's needed for BiS.

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Removing the weekly tome limit isn't magically going to have them make more end game content, it just means the end game content will be scaled to a higher iLvl, since it'll be easier to reach that iLvl.
Also, XIV doesn't really have horizontal progression, so I'm not sure how your last sentence is related.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I would prefer a great many things:.

1. Tomestones are not the only one avenue to obtain gear - gear drops come from mobs, quests, chests that all have a chance at giving you something relevant for your ilvl

2. Tomestones are not capped on earning, but are rather capped on spending per job. For example, you can spend 450 scripture tomestones on SMN this week, and another 450 on SCH if you so choose - and you can gain as much as you like.

3. Weekly limits have roll overs, for example, if I miss a week, I can catch up on my missed cap the following week and not be behind the rest of my raid team

4. Distribution of Tomestones be spread out a little better. Currently, nothing gives nearly anything the same as expert - this encourages one to run expert only and the 2 new dungeons become boring quite quickly. Xelphatol? Takes 15 minutes (give or take) and you get 50 tomestones vs A12N which takes 10 minutes and gives you 10.

5. Explore the option of making tomestones trade-able, if a cap is put on spending, this would not give anyone an unfair advantage. However, it may open up more possibilities to obtain tomestones. It also could help address the issue, where if someone is away for some reason, they can have a friend get them and trade them over. It also could potentially add to the economy.

In the end, though, I'd rather they just scrap tomestones and replicate WoW's itemization and reward structure.

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1. They'd have to be very careful about the chances of getting gear from those sources, as I'm sure they don't want people to fully gear up in a week.
2. This sounds okay, but I think it'd be better if it were tied to roles instead of jobs. Each role (tank/healer/dps) having their own 450 tomestones weekly cap.
3. This sounds reasonable, as I have a few friends who sometimes have to rush things if they end up having to be away for a few days.
4. This probably wouldn't be as much of an issue if expert roulette had more than two dungeons. Also something that'd require careful balancing
5. I think this would be a bad idea, as you'd get this mentality that players should start running with multiple alts so they can trade tomestones over to their main to gear up really fast. And the super rich being able to get everything on week 1.

If by WoW's itemization/reward structure, you mean the current one in Legion, I'd rather they'd avoid that. I wouldn't find it fun to have RNG stacked on RNG stacked on RNG (Does it have the right stats? Is it warforged/titanforged? Does it have a gem socket?)

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

1. They'd have to be very careful about the chances of getting gear from those sources, as I'm sure they don't want people to fully gear up in a week.
2. This sounds okay, but I think it'd be better if it were tied to roles instead of jobs. Each role (tank/healer/dps) having their own 450 tomestones weekly cap.
3. This sounds reasonable, as I have a few friends who sometimes have to rush things if they end up having to be away for a few days.
4. This probably wouldn't be as much of an issue if expert roulette had more than two dungeons. Also something that'd require careful balancing
5. I think this would be a bad idea, as you'd get this mentality that players should start running with multiple alts so they can trade tomestones over to their main to gear up really fast. And the super rich being able to get everything on week 1.

If by WoW's itemization/reward structure, you mean the current one in Legion, I'd rather they'd avoid that. I wouldn't find it fun to have RNG stacked on RNG stacked on RNG (Does it have the right stats? Is it warforged/titanforged? Does it have a gem socket?)

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1. possible, this is how WoW does it and you don't gear to max in a week.
2. Roles would work, it depends on the tomes of that patch (i.e. if healers are all sharing, yes roles, if healers are not sharing then no not)
5. You would not be able to gear up fast, due to the cap on spending. You can still only gear up at the same speed.

yes, I meant WoW's Legion system. I had a heck of a lot more fun gearing up in Legion than I have ever had in FFXIV. To elaborate, gearing in FFXIV feels like a chore that I need to do in order to raid. In Legion, it feels like gearing is the reason why I am doing anything. I enjoy gearing there, so that's why I do the content. I hate gearing here, but it's necessary to do the content that I enjoy.

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Originally Posted by SessionZero

how are they going to be any more motivated to do so if they can achieve a full set of 260 even faster?

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I guess you never played an Horizontal progression game then.

I've played GW2 for 2 Years and pretty much the best gear you got at the first months was pretty much still the best 2 Years later, almost no one had issues with it.

Meanwhile in FFXIV:

- 2 Months later after new Raid: full BiS
- 4 Months later useless BiS gear
- Repeat

There should be more End-game Raids, the weekly tome is a cheap attempt and not making more Raids.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

How so? The weekly tome limit is a cheap attempt at not making more end game content

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Lifting it is not going to magically give them the resources to develop more content per patch. that's a cause and effect not based in reality.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

I guess you never played an Horizontal progression game then.

I've played GW2 for 2 Years and pretty much the best gear you got at the first months was pretty much still the best 2 Years later, almost no one had issues with it.

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A lot of people had issues with it. It's the major reason that people say there is no endgame content and barely anything to do. I got bored of this style pretty quickly, and is why I came to FFXIV. That isn't to say I think FFXIV's system is good though (see above), it's just better than GW2.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Horizontal progression is often plagued by RNG gods, significantly more than it is here.

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Depends on the game, but generally speaking yes there's more RNG for a simple reasons: gear sets.

If people don't like grind then they don't like horizontal progression at all, but let's be honest, a lot of people complain they don't like to grind, yet i see those people grinding the relic and events like Yokai.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

Lifting it is not going to magically give them the resources to develop more content per patch. that's a cause and effect not based in reality.

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They got a much bigger budget this time than they did with HW, can't wait to see more of the same. (^^,)

I like the weekly caps. I have (achievable) goals each week, things to do and I get a bit more powerful each week.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

I guess you never played an Horizontal progression game then.

I've played GW2 for 2 Years and pretty much the best gear you got at the first months was pretty much still the best 2 Years later, almost no one had issues with it.

Meanwhile in FFXIV:

- 2 Months later after new Raid: full BiS
- 4 Months later useless BiS gear
- Repeat

There should be more End-game Raids, the weekly tome is a cheap attempt and not making more Raids.

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I played GW2 from release until probably mid to late 2014 consistently and then on and off for another year. The game had no endgame content to speak of outside of Fractals (arguably) and PvP. There were many other myriad issues plaguing the gearing system of that game, and in the end they ended up introducing vertical progression of their own with Ascended, etc gear.

I agree that something needs to be done with the tomestone system, but I think you're missing the forest for the trees by focusing on the weekly caps.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

They got a much bigger budget this time than they did with HW, can't wait to see more of the same. (^^,)

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More money is also not a magical power that makes all the impossible possible, or makes what YOU want just happen.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

This is one of the biggest complains i see especially Weekly Tomestone cap, and people are afraid it will happen all over again with 4.0.


So, what can be done to fix this?

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Weekly cap = longer playtime until you have your stuff = more money for SE. Nothing will change there because SE is a company and has to earn money. If you only log in to cap your tomes, why are you playing at all? There is enough to do in the game.

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Originally Posted by SessionZero

The game had no endgame

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Considering Exotic was the best gear there was apart from Legendary weapons, everything was end-game until they introduced pink ascended gear.

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Originally Posted by SessionZero

I agree that something needs to be done with the tomestone system, but I think you're missing the forest for the trees by focusing on the weekly caps.

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Maybe there should be two weekly tomestones and two raids, at least there would be more to do and won't feel as stuck.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

More money is also not a magical power that makes all the impossible possible, or makes what YOU want just happen.

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Means bigger team, more resources, and therefor more content. It's just a matter of what content they do, have you forgot Diadem? :)

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

yes, I meant WoW's Legion system. I had a heck of a lot more fun gearing up in Legion than I have ever had in FFXIV. To elaborate, gearing in FFXIV feels like a chore that I need to do in order to raid. In Legion, it feels like gearing is the reason why I am doing anything. I enjoy gearing there, so that's why I do the content. I hate gearing here, but it's necessary to do the content that I enjoy.

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Someone on my server has the perfect search message for this: "RNG doesn't solve an MMO's problems".

I personally don't mind the weeklies. Gives me things to do and, when I'm done, either level other classes and/or run things with my FC. We do bird runs weekly etc. So there is plenty to do beyond gearing up.

And honestly, unless you're doing Savage you don't even need rush to gear up.

I like the tomestone system, I really do. Having a guaranteed currency that you can use to get relevant gear instead of having to only focus on RNG makes sense to me. I also understand the need for weekly caps to put some sort of brakes on power creeps and try to stretch the content into a larger time frame. It makes a lot of sense from a business perspective.

That being said, I 100% agree that tomestone expenditures should be limited to amount spent per role per week and that there needs to be a much much larger variety of ways to acquire and cap tomestones week after week. I don't know if I can handle 2 more years of grinding the same two dungeons week after week after week.

I do have to agree that I prefer the caps but only because I am not the kind of person to grind out back to back to get something, honestly after 2-3 runs of Alex I just roll on whatever I can win. However I feel it gives those who can't spend 10hours a day a chance to actually gear up and play with everyone. Knowing how some people are I would imagine the first week people having all max ilv gear for the current content for all classes.

I think Kaurie and Nezerius are on the right track with their thoughts on a spending cap rather than an obtaining cap. This would allow off-Jobs to be geared for endgame content more quickly while also allowing players the freedom to farm as many tomes as they wish per week.

Imagine, for example, the ability to introduce to your static a challenge day where everyone swaps roles one day of the week to the Jobs they were able to gear up quicker using the spending limit.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

1. possible, this is how WoW does it and you don't gear to max in a week.
2. Roles would work, it depends on the tomes of that patch (i.e. if healers are all sharing, yes roles, if healers are not sharing then no not)
5. You would not be able to gear up fast, due to the cap on spending. You can still only gear up at the same speed.

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1. Which is why I mentioned having to carefully consider the amount of RNG from drops. At the start of WoD, people could be geared for raiding in a week of heroics, which made those heroics completely obsolete.
5. Oversight on my part, sorry. If there's a spending cap, making them tradeable would be okay.

Can't say I find the Legion system fun, with the countless trinkets that I've gotten that ended up with terrible stats, the random gear from world quests that ended up being worse than the lower ilvl gear that I was already wearing. (This is especially problematic for accessories, ever since they removed primary stats on those) Not to mention their terrible legendary system (but that's sorta unrelated). Done plenty of dungeons where I'd get 1 piece, or none at all.

That said, I haven't done any mythic dungeons or anything past a single trip into LFR, since my main focus is still XIV, and I barely know anyone on my WoW server (and I don't have the patience to sit in the group finder for hours, bane of being a DPS). Perhaps those are better when it comes to gearing up, even if it still has the war/titanforged system.

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Originally Posted by Frowny

Someone on my server has the perfect search message for this: "RNG doesn't solve an MMO's problems".

I personally don't mind the weeklies. Gives me things to do and, when I'm done, either level other classes and/or run things with my FC. We do bird runs weekly etc. So there is plenty to do beyond gearing up.

And honestly, unless you're doing Savage you don't even need rush to gear up.

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I am doing Savage; however, gearing up is pretty much the point of the game to me.

"RNG Doesn't Solve an MMO's problems" seems like a weird statement. IMO FFXIV suffers from RNG a lot worse than WoW does, but beyond that RNG is a useful too. Without randomness, games would be pretty boring. Random number generation has been used in like every video game ever.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

3. Weekly limits have roll overs, for example, if I miss a week, I can catch up on my missed cap the following week and not be behind the rest of my raid team

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This would be one of the major things I would change with the tomestones. I don't mind too much about the caps but the forced feeling to cap it is what kills me with the caps and just knowing it rolls over would change things for me.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I am doing Savage; however, gearing up is pretty much the point of the game to me.

"RNG Doesn't Solve an MMO's problems" seems like a weird statement. IMO FFXIV suffers from RNG a lot worse than WoW does, but beyond that RNG is a useful too. Without randomness, games would be pretty boring. Random number generation has been used in like every video game ever.

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Valid point then given you're doing savage.

RNG is fine, but there's a point where you shouldn't have RNG for the sake of having it. Forgot who (sorry!) that mentioned Legion is RNG on top of RNG etc. I haven't touched WoW so I can't comment on the validity, but that example is just tedious and tossing RNG in for no reason.

Edit: To add, I DO love the idea of a cap based on roles. I want to gear my WHM/PLD, but since DRG is my baby they're forced to get just A9-12 stuff right now.

I say have it uncapped if people want to take their time they can if people want to get the best gear possible they can.
Only issue I see is people asking "Why don't you have x piece yet or y?" (Which happens now mind you)

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

Means bigger team, more resources, and therefor more content. It's just a matter of what content they do, have you forgot Diadem? :)

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It doesn't mean anything; it guarantees nothing. How the funds are spent and where they are allocated to is not 100% clear outside of the company. Expecting anything, no matter how concrete the possibility, unless openly stated, is lofty ground.

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Originally Posted by Yasuhiro

I say have it uncapped if people want to take their time they can if people want to get the best gear possible they can. I'm one
Only issue I see is people asking "Why don't you have x piece yet or y?" (Which happens now mind you)

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Taking down any limiters would only serve to aggravate that issue. You'll have picky people who exist in the top margins who demand best of the best. Making even the bottom line(this being immediately out of new patches) more susceptible to that only serves to damage the game. And encouraging burnout or even just enabling it by not limiting effort isn't healthy either. There should be more avenues to reach that cap, but the cap itself is a necessity for the bare minimum. That's also why other paths exist to obtain gear that is currently equal if not superior, those taking more effort or more time but being restricted by their own and not in tandem.

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Originally Posted by Averax

I hate the grind. I wish there were more effective means of capping. Doing the same two dungeons over and over for months gets really old really fast, and then you hate them forever after that. I still have nightmares about neverreap and fractal continuum.

What i want, if we're going to continue on the endless grind cycle, is alternate and viable means of capping tomes. Something, anything other than two dungeons. Don't get me wrong, the dungeons are beautiful and well put together, but i'm so tired of them.

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This ^ I can live with the cap existing, but at least attempt to make it fun.

Actually when I am capped it gives me time to do other things like potd and side Story quests, lvl classes, crafting, etc. I don't mind the cap

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Originally Posted by FyrmurlFloerasksyn

I hope they continue to have weekly caps. Otherwise you would grind to get your gear in the first week and be done with it.

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That only requires time-gating of some sort.

- It doesn't have to be weekly,
- it doesn't have to be applied (just) to general latest tier currency and raid lockouts,
- and it doesn't have to be impossible to get back when unable to play during the interval (such as missing currency from a busy week).

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I would prefer a great many things:.

<...>

2. Tomestones are not capped on earning, but are rather capped on spending per job. For example, you can spend 450 scripture tomestones on SMN this week, and another 450 on SCH if you so choose - and you can gain as much as you like.

3. Weekly limits have roll overs, for example, if I miss a week, I can catch up on my missed cap the following week and not be behind the rest of my raid team

<...>

5. Explore the option of making tomestones trade-able, if a cap is put on spending, this would not give anyone an unfair advantage. However, it may open up more possibilities to obtain tomestones. It also could help address the issue, where if someone is away for some reason, they can have a friend get them and trade them over. It also could potentially add to the economy..

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I agree completly on #2 and #3.

I disagree however on #5. If Tomes becomes tradeable, it might have an impact on the High-end Crafting market.

Having a Cap dose more good then bad (The lesser of two Evils), it give players the time to do other thing and not have to feel like if they don't have the top gear ASAP they cant run with others, and or do something bec everyone in PF will have there inv ILv set to the max week 1 of a patch. (Yes players will and do, do this in same games)

Not everyone has that much time to play 50-60+hr in a week to cap and max there gear out ASAP. This keep players on some what the same lv and not making other feel like there useless or cant ever run with others in PF or there Guilds/LS

In a Nut shell im for keeping it right were it at for now.. BUT i do how ever want to see more ways then the 3 we have to cap tomes Daily/PoTD/Map are nice but.. maybe something new to add to the fun in 4.0 ^^/please.

Like maybe a Big ass PvE battle to save a town form a beastman attacker or save the ppl of a small village. Like a Siege or something.. with 4.0 coming we will have to save Ala Mhigo ^^ why cant "The "Garlean" Empire strikes back" hahah sry had too.. Beastman too!

(We had something like this in 1.0.. But maybe something lil faster and more fun but with the same fell?) (PS: FFXI had something like it to was a lot of fun)
Link 1
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I'd rather see them remove the cap completely, currently there is craft, savage, and tome gear, but to have the best combination of gear you need to have pieces out of savage and tome, for example as BRD the Augmented Shire Coat is actually better vs the Alexandrian Jacket of Aiming. The Shire Coat has 129 crit and 89 det vs the 129 accuracy and 89 skill speed of the Alex Jacket, so a player would have to log enough time to get 270 tome gear, but if a BRD wanted the better leg piece? They'd have to run Savage as the Alex Gaskins of Aiming has 90 crit and 129 skill speed vs the Shire Hose of 90 acc and 123 det.

This slightly makes gearing side jobs completely dependant on crafted gear, but while that helps deal with the constant under gearing of side jobs to a slight degree, a player would still have to wait until being completely geared on their main before touching the side job, and given this game was built on the ideology that we can be every class, the game has never really facilitated this prospect. We've gotten closer due to 250 craft yes, but it's also inadvertently made some content much easier. A counter to the obvious "people will gear to quick" is rather simple to handle, unlock the cap, but slightly increase the amount of tomes needed per piece, thus allowing uncapped tome acquisition but keeping a small grind in place to ensure over grading is curved to a degree.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

It doesn't mean anything; it guarantees nothing. How the funds are spent and where they are allocated to is not 100% clear outside of the company. Expecting anything, no matter how concrete the possibility, unless openly stated, is lofty ground.

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Yes, but one expects things will be better, don't we? Or are we interested in not having improvements?