Crafting is not random

http://i43.tinypic.com/s2w96f.jpg

I hope this image alone summarize up the crafting is not random,
spamming standard synthesis would have an extremely hard time to reproduce the above result imo..
There're botches but considering it a 750exp synth I think it's pretty well already.

But yes, the crafting mechanics and system is way too complicated for a game,
it's about a year since release and there're so many "random factors" I tried over and over to get rid of them, finally came up with a theory of my own.

By the way, the purpose I bring this up is to let SE takes into account when they design the new crafting system.

Auto completion of NQ products are fine, but the "more time comsuming" HQ synths should at least be designed at a point where skill/reward proportion is balanced.

What image?

Seeing your XP values makes me lick my lips in delight at the potential that I could craft.

Do you have any abilities that you prefer over others?

It gets painful near 50 when there are no recipes 10 ranks above to grind on.
Get every craft to lvl 10 first before continuing to get all the good L10 abilities. This will spare you a major ton of pain.

I'm sorry but what are you trying to show with that picture?

That you got 750 xp per synth?

That you botched?

What exactly are you trying to point out?

That people should shut up whining about how hard it is to craft when this guy here managed to do synths 10 levels above his rank consistently. (~75%)

Basically the picture proof of what some of us already said many times in other threads.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

Seeing your XP values makes me lick my lips in delight at the potential that I could craft.

Do you have any abilities that you prefer over others?

---

For the best success rate on attempts, I recommend these skills
BSM - Ingenuity (I suppose this actually makes the attempts function as if the synth is several levels lower)
CUL - Less is More, Life's Purpose (Less is more = condenses 1-20 durability loss to 1-4, extremely useful)
LTW - Fulfillment (Not too good on its own, but superb effectiveness with Life's Purpose)
ALC - Preserve (Changes sound from orb during action selection)

but using them alone is not enough to produce a good enough chance of success to the atempt,
you have to take these into consideration as well:

Progression / Durability position of the cycle you're at
(In short P/D goes up and down periodically, and at certain periods you have better chance to success)

Sound from the orb on waits AND when you're selecting your next action
("Wait sounds" are generally better when it's high pitched, while a higher volume from the "select sound" is bad, and easy to cause elemental chaos)

Moon phase and Weather
(Yea I find it easier when the moon is bigger, half/full moon etc., while weather should have some effects on the stability of elements as well, I'm still trying to figure it out)

Guild Buff
(It certainly helps even when it's not a requirement from synths)

Quote:

---

That people should shut up whining about how hard it is to craft when this guy here managed to do synths 10 levels above his rank consistently. (~75%)

Basically the picture proof of what some of us already said many times in other threads.

---

And most of my botches were at 80%+ progression too :)
But I have to be frank those results were obtained during favorable moon phase,
I tried to reproduce the same result earlier today and it's not as good (Changed to new moon)
But there's still hope since I accomplished those in the pic in Iron Lake, with the minimal guild support.

Well I guess for now this thread is going to be clean from whiners upon seeing the pic and flood the pages with "It's random!!", and we can share our findings here altogether!!

My 2 cents...

Quote:

---

Moon phase and Weather
(Yea I find it easier when the moon is bigger, half/full moon etc., while weather should have some effects on the stability of elements as well, I'm still trying to figure it out)

---

Actually I don't. Streaks of 2-3 botches are pretty common regardless of what is happening around me. It is pretty random here, but the fun (and frustration) is in how to handle the randomness.

Quote:

---

Guild Buff
(It certainly helps even when it's not a requirement from synths)

---

Can usually skip it when you are 3 or less under recipe unless your equipment is past expiry. Helps to avoid traveling half the world to get support when I don't need it.
--------------------

I use Preserve (L10) > Fulfillment (L10) > Maker's Muse (L10) > Ingenuity (L30?) in that order.
Tendertouch (L10) is also pretty nice but I swapped it out once I got better alternatives.
-> Hence get all the L10 skills and find a combination that suits your (spamming) style.

I use 2 x Recipe Level as an estimate for the craftsmanship (or magic) I need for best successful action rates. Once you have that, put any extra into control for stability.
-> It should help.
-> Using the right tool makes it easier to hit the required craftsmanship value.

--------------
Finally adjust your own expectations.
Synths can and will fail. Materials are cheap. The world isn't gonna collapse if you only get 75% success.
The game doesn't have to change to suit you.

If you just can't handle randomness, don't play poker, don't roll dices, don't walk down the street (random chance of a car swerving off the street to kill you), don't drive a car (random chance of a drunk driver hitting you), don't eat (random chance of choking to death), don't breath (random chance of someone smoking walking by you and giving you cancer) and don't live (random chance of death at every turn).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tymora

Finally adjust your own expectations.
Synths can and will fail. Materials are cheap. The world isn't gonna collapse if you only get 75% success.
The game doesn't have to change to suit you.

If you just can't handle randomness, don't play poker, don't roll dices, don't walk down the street (random chance of a car swerving off the street to kill you), don't drive a car (random chance of a drunk driver hitting you), don't eat (random chance of choking to death), don't breath (random chance of someone smoking walking by you and giving you cancer) and don't live (random chance of death at every turn).

---

Emm... Are you implying "The crafting system is random, deal with it" in a thread with the OP,
that's me,
trying to eliminate those so-called "random factors" one by one, while showing his progress proofing he's not making it up?

I wish to gather more players who're interested in learning the game, sharing idea and findings with this thread..
and obviously not hearing any more opinions about "It's random"..

And uhh... your suggestions such as don't eat, don't breath are actually valid..
as I'm looking for the same ways to deal with the "randomness" people complained for long,
here's a few examples:

Failing on white orbs:
The P/D cycle position affects the success chance, level difference and Control stat reduces a "random factor" which shifts you away from the periodic positions.
(Don't attempt even standard synthesis on bad positions)

Element goes chaotic:
Weather and the sound from orb during "action selection" affects it, and it can also be countered by Control stat, which gives you less undesirable sound.

(Don't use even standard synthesis when you know your success chance is low, while the sound indicates a higher chance of chaotic element upon failure)

i did the same thing i had the book and good gear and i still failed and that using other spells and wait and so on. it may not be random but at the end i still click standard all day long.

Quote:

---

Emm... Are you implying "The crafting system is random, deal with it" in a thread with the OP,
that's me,

---

The initial risk amount is random, as with the "chance of success" of every action. You can reduce the impact on an attempt or improve your odds but it is still there regardless.

Sorry, but a couple minutes of chat log doesn't prove a whole lot. I understand and utilize all the techniques and factors that have been described here, as well as eat crafting food, strive to have the best crafting gear and tools available, (including multiple gear sets to optimize craft, control, m.craft and a balance of the three) appropriate abilities, support, etc. but when I finish a synth with 80 durability left, succeeding every single action, and then repeat the exact same synth without changing any factors or my method and have it fail before 50%, that degree of fluctuation isn't acceptable.

There are alot of factors playing in the synthesis process, some of which we know very little about. But by my understanding, you're opinion should mean that synthesis attempts done with the same gear/abilities/method on the same moon phase and elemental day should produce similar results. That doesn't explain why it isn't uncommon to ace a synth with a ton of durability left, then repeat the same one seconds later without changing any variables and have 7 standard synths on white orbs fail and botch halfway through. If it was easy success followed by a 90% or 80% progress and failure, then sure, that makes sense. However anyone who has a craft past 20 can tell you that certain synth attempts seem doomed to fail from the start without any rhyme or reason.

TL: DR, there is just too much left at the mercy of random number generation.

http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4...7f5e000ff9.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VenusDoom

Sorry, but a couple minutes of chat log doesn't prove a whole lot. I understand and utilize all the techniques and factors that have been described here, as well as eat crafting food, strive to have the best crafting gear and tools available, (including multiple gear sets to optimize craft, control, m.craft and a balance of the three) appropriate abilities, support, etc. but when I finish a synth with 80 durability left, succeeding every single action, and then repeat the exact same synth without changing any factors or my method and have it fail before 50%, that degree of fluctuation isn't acceptable.

There are alot of factors playing in the synthesis process, some of which we know very little about. But by my understanding, you're opinion should mean that synthesis attempts done with the same gear/abilities/method on the same moon phase and elemental day should produce similar results. That doesn't explain why it isn't uncommon to ace a synth with a ton of durability left, then repeat the same one seconds later without changing any variables and have 7 standard synths on white orbs fail and botch halfway through. If it was easy success followed by a 90% or 80% progress and failure, then sure, that makes sense. However anyone who has a craft past 20 can tell you that certain synth attempts seem doomed to fail from the start without any rhyme or reason.

TL: DR, there is just too much left at the mercy of random number generation.

---

^ This is why I don't understand how the OP's picture proves that crafting is random.

I thought he didn't mean it literally :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VenusDoom

Image of FFXIV crafting algorithm

---

I need to shove that image down the throat of every person who defends that the current crafting system is OK and should not be changed.

VenusDoom that is the best thing I have ever seen. <3

lol I might have made that in the middle of a craft-induced frustration episode. And OP or anyone, I am not trying to discredit your opinion or put you down, just voicing that many of us have had experiences with crafting that cannot be summed up in a screenshot of a few synths.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VenusDoom

lol I might have made that in the middle of a craft-induced frustration episode. And OP or anyone, I am not trying to discredit your opinion or put you down, just voicing that many of us have had experiences with crafting that cannot be summed up in a screenshot of a few synths.

---

exactly.

its random.
any abilities may have a minor , almost insignificant effect on the result, but overall its a roll of the dice imo. ;;

Crafting is not random? OMG are your serious? @ OP yes your pic shows that higher level recipes can be done but that's hardly conclusive evidence that crafting is not random imho. Crafting needs to come with a mental health warning, seriously! I do like to craft, when I have the patience to do it. I always use rank/job appropriate gear and upgrade that whenever possible. Currently working on GSM which is at L41 atm making Dated Goshenite Rings, which (we are led to believe) is a L42 recipe. I've just botched 4/6. The first i completely with 78 durability, the second botched at 30%, the third at around 50%, the fourth, well you get the idea. There should be an "element" of randomness in synthing but when you just get fail after fail and then a destabilise and BANG it makes me want to tear my hear out. This game is marketed on the fact that you can play any job you wish but that is BS. You need to level multiple crafting jobs just to adequately play the one you want. A little off topic here but take Ifrit for example, you gotta have Sentinel just to survive Hellfire. You aint getting in a party without it! You need multiple skills from pretty much all the crafting jobs too just to have a decent stab at completing some recipes. Well done SE! I know this is going to change shortly with the rank specific traits etc. but I just hope they give each job similar abilities because otherwise we're screwed!

I have tested out spamming standard synthesis without abilities and can complete a recipe. Then I will do the same recipe using abilities and bust it. I have taken off all my gear and completed a recipe only to put back on and fail the next!! And WTF did they do with destabilise? It can happen on every synth. Get a destabilise on your first attempt and ur basically screwed!! Also how the hell can the lightning element destabilise when I'm using fire shards and wind crystals? A few people have said to me the game has decided whether or not you are going to complete a recipe as soon as you begin it and from my experience, I'm included to agree. Random, random, random /scream

We still dont know for certain what craftsmanship and magic craftsmanship actually do! I just wish SE would stop treating us like fools and actually give us some insight into some of the other stats in game so we can play to our best and excel at the job(s) we actually WANT to level. There are days I wish this game would fail. That sounds a little harsh but SE need to realise they cant just treat us like fools and keep us in the dark about everything and get away with it just because they are SE!

I apologise for the rant; it has been about 3 months of frustration in the making!! I enjoy playing XIV and have put a lot of hours into it but seriously crafting should come with a mental health warning!!

I know changes have been made and there are going to be further changes but PLEASE SE in the name of all things holy, get it right this time!! That is all lol!

CharlieXenn, your post fails big time. Do your research before ranting...

Quote:

---

Currently working on GSM which is at L41 atm making Dated Goshenite Rings, which (we are led to believe) is a L42 recipe.

---

That's because it is a Level 49 recipe. Electrum Rings are 44. The gemmed ones are 49.
And use a grinding wheel. All rings use magic craftsmanship.

I am surprised you didn't fail 6/6. Randomness helped you succeed the 2 times here, not the other way round...

Quote:

---

A little off topic here but take Ifrit for example, you gotta have Sentinel just to survive Hellfire.

---

You can survive with Emulate too or just boost your HP with a lot of materia.

he could be using a compabny manual, i get over 900xp when i use them

post a ful screen shot please

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tymora

CharlieXenn, your post fails big time. Do your research before ranting...

---

ZAM has Dated Goshenite Rings down as L42. I do believe that constitutes "research." Anyway you have missed the point. I said "we are led to believe." That is because there is never any proper information from SE. Even the Lodestone only puts recipe ranges down i.e. 41-50 which isn't incredibly helpful at times (again, research).

I would be intrigued to see the 'official' confirmation that the rings are magic craftsmanship-orientated but I will try that and thanks for the suggestion.

Good luck getting into an Ifrit party without Sentinel ... 99% of parties won't even take you without it.

@ VenusDoom: Nearly broke my mouse clicking the like button so hard on your post! Couldn't agree more!

Hand of the Gods (R36 alchemy) + Perfection (R30 carpenter) and you can craft stuff +10 LV consistently, probably even less botches than the OP shows. Throw in Crafting scroll for 1k+ exp/synth!!

Quote:

---

ZAM has Dated Goshenite Rings down as L42

---

Then ZAM is wrong. While several recipes (mostly related to raw materials) were lowered in difficulty, the GSM recipes were not adjusted in levels in 1.19 at all.
If you looked at YG, the levels are correctly listed as 49.

And you could have inferred the levels from the exp you're getting as well. You should have gotten around about 650 exp on the ones you succeeded on. Base 250 at same level + 50 per additional level.

Quote:

---

I would be intrigued to see the 'official' confirmation that the rings are magic craftsmanship-orientated but I will try that and thanks for the suggestion.

---

Just do it once and you'll confirm it yourself. Folks nowadays just seems so lazy to me when they want "official" confirmation on everything.

Quote:

---

Good luck getting into an Ifrit party without Sentinel

---

Already cleared it once. I have a good LS...haha

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by neizero

Hand of the Gods (R36 alchemy) + Perfection (R30 carpenter) and you can craft stuff +10 LV consistently, probably even less botches than the OP shows. Throw in Crafting scroll for 1k+ exp/synth!!

---

Look at VenusDoom's post, then look at Charlie's post.

It is beyond ridiculous to have to level two crafts to high levels (mind you, it takes significantly longer to get to rank 30/36 in a craft versus 30/36 for a Disciple of War/Disciple of Magic class) to minimize the randomness of the current system. You're essentially saying that anyone who doesn't get Hand of the Gods and Perfection is gimped.

That's foolish. What should be the case is that if you have these two skills, your leveling and crafting ability should be enhanced. You shouldn't be required to have these two skills to mitigate the randomness of crafting.

Quote:

---

You shouldn't be required to have these two skills to mitigate the randomness of crafting.

---

You aren't. You only need to get the L10 abilities from a few crafts. Maybe 30 min work in each craft.

There will always be those who defend SE no matter what bonehead decisions they make...

Nonetheless, they are the minority.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bahn

You're essentially saying that anyone who doesn't get Hand of the Gods and Perfection is gimped.

That's foolish. What should be the case is that if you have these two skills, your leveling and crafting ability should be enhanced. You shouldn't be required to have these two skills to mitigate the randomness of crafting.

---

Wow.... Who said required? You can level without them just fine and can craft stuff +10 lv without them, you will just get more botches, this is the whole point of the armory system, you borrow abilities from other classes you have invested time in leveling to make your life easier, but they are by no means required to get your 700 exp/synth...

There are certain aspects of crafting that is random, and others which you can have control over.
Such as look at the EXP earned for completing the craft for the mahogany lumber in the OP; 759~764. You have no control over that. You can find your own examples as well when completing any craft to compare EXP results, sometimes the variance is much larger than 5xp for completed synths.

You do have control over the success rate depending on the tools, stats, and choices you make during the synth. This should be indisputable. Such as if you keep spamming standard synth your chances of failing a synth out of your level range is higher oppose to carefully picking your choices and observing the changes.

I personally take the easier route and earn 300 EXP per synth by just mashing Standard Synth rather than spend twice the amount of time and actions to carefully monitor color, sound, and my available choices at the moment. It was fun to do the first few synths to see if it's possible, but now I just spend that time multitasking something else while just hitting the enter button occasionally.

Quote:

---

I personally take the easier route and earn 300 EXP per synth

---

I still watch my TV mashing the standard for 600+ EXP synth. A few more failures but no big deal.

by the way i did the average for the op and he averages 625 xp a synth which i can get np without fails.
so if you aim for 625 instead of 750 youll prob have better luck and save some mats.

I am more curious about what they are saying about orb sounds. The only orb sounds i hear are after I select an action. But, they seem to be indicating that you can hear sounds before an action, and know when you are running a risk of failing/going unstable.

I was hoping they could elaborate on that.