"Riot Blade restores TP in Sword Oath and MP in Shield Oath."
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Make it happen please ♪ At the moment Paladin's are in a pretty precarious situation when it comes to bosses that are designed like Striking Dummies. In a mere three minutes a Paladin's TP can be completely drained to 0; giving you nothing to do but toss a Stoneskin or two until you can lift your sword again. This makes Skill Speed almost worse than Parry on fights where you can actually hit 0/1000.
But there is one simple change that could not only fix this; but also make the job more fun to play overall. And at the heart of the fix, it's a previous design choice made to Warriors.
Warrior: Equilibrium
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Defiance: Restores HP
Deliverance: Restores 200 TP
Following a similar route we can easily fix Paladins.
Paladin: Riot Blade
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Shield Oath: Restores MP (It's current use)
Sword Oath: Restores TP
When tanking for extended periods of time you'd be restoring your MP for Flash and Clemency. However, after Tank swapping and going into Sword Oath, you'd regenerate a bit of TP in the middle of each Goring Blade combo. We currently spend about 530 TP in an optimal "Goring -> Royal -> Royal" rotation. Thus, even getting 100 TP back with Riot Blade would do wonders. It would never break even, but in the event a Paladin did hit 0 TP they could always fall back on a few Riot Blade spams to keep them afloat until a phase change.
"Riot Blade or Riot!" -2016
Riot Blade: One Simple Adjustment
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10-14-2016, 02:10 PMGalactimusRiot Blade: One Simple Adjustment
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10-14-2016, 04:09 PMFebrus
Agreed.
No matter how many people like to play the big white knight in defense of SE's asinine design decisions, there is no denying that their "fixes" for Pld Tp have been complete trash. Reducing a few Tp costs here and there is just a flimsy bandage which falls right off as soon as Skill Speed goes up. It's been a mere two weeks since 3.4 hit, and Pld's are already running dry on Tp in any content that requires consistent tanking, even with incomplete sets. Syncing down to any lvl 50 content is equally horrendous. We've been asking for a simple fix for this problem since as far back as 2.4, and I really don't think it's too much to ask for. -
10-14-2016, 05:06 PMReynhart
Wouldn't it just reduce one management aspect and make BRD and MCH less desirable ?
If you can basically never run out of TP except on extreme situation, they could just remove TP entirely...and for the record, the fact that WAR can't really run out of TP is a problem, for me. Same as SCH and BLM that can't really run out of MP. -
10-14-2016, 05:36 PMGalactimusAh, I don't want Paladins to never run out of TP. However, we currently run out of TP when everyone else still has 500+ TP plus a second Invigorate / Equilibrium to spare. I'll happily take a TP song but it seems like a waste when you're the only person in the party that needs it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
When a Paladin hits 0 TP, being able to use Riot Blade spam to get a small portion of TP back would still be a huge DPS loss to the PLD. And it would only hold them over for another 30-60 seconds. But it's better than doing nothing but casting Stoneskin, while waiting for everyone elses TP get low. -
10-14-2016, 08:52 PMReynhartI'd dare say that having no TP for a short time doesn't prevent you from doing your job as a tank thanks to your skills and spells, but since the only thing that matters to people in this game is moar deeps, it'd surely fall flat...Quote:
Originally Posted by Galactimus
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10-14-2016, 09:10 PMADVSS
I am completely ok with this, since again apparently the tanks should be forced out of tank stance to restore resources to continue doing their job.
signed. -
10-14-2016, 09:13 PMchionnUre not wrong in terms of dynamic fights but if we look at a9s for example where ure just standing around as mt, u burn your tp very fast. On that fight u have 2 jobs : 1. get hit and 2. mitigate tankbusters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
As soon as that is secured dps becomes important again just to shorten the fight - and thats the case for every encounter in the entire game -
10-14-2016, 09:19 PMshao32
sure why not, lets make goad, spire, army's paeon and rooks turret tp utility more useless.... "sigh"
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10-14-2016, 09:27 PMReynhartBut, you don't understand, using any of this...is a DPS loss...:p (Well, except Goad)Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
On that note, I wonder when we'll see MCH and BRD officially refusing to do this because "I'm not screwing my own DPS to help you keep yours"... -
10-14-2016, 09:41 PMshao32i know, but i meaning the resources management, this old mechanic was better in 2.x when bard do it more time, now they are killing all this support skills with self management and the dps meta, in other words become this skills useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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10-14-2016, 10:12 PMCabalabob
One major problem you're overlooking. Riot blade is used to restore mp so we can flash more at low level. We get sword oath before we get shield oath and before either we have no stance at all. This adjustment would mean low level gladiators and paladins threat management would die until level 40.
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10-14-2016, 10:21 PMADVSSThis is very true...maybe we'll put it as a trait after shield oath is aquired? You are right. Quite honestly sword oath may add up over time but i feel like for a dps stance its sort of...underwhelming, numbers asside. It doesnt really feel that impactful as a "stance" I should say, Good point though, mayhaps we find another way to alleviate tp issues thenQuote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
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10-14-2016, 10:33 PMReynhartOr...you know...we could actually learn our tank stance at the same level as WAR and DRK ? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by ADVSS
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10-14-2016, 10:52 PMADVSSIm hoping they rearrange some pre 50 skills so they make a lot more sense, very good point! That would probably be the best solution to simplifying the stance without adding more unnecessary skills in 4.0, if they would take things to that route.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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10-14-2016, 11:09 PMPrincessNuriIt is already like that. One time a bard and ninja to restored me without asking them and at a crucial moment. I almost fainted from the shock, needless to say my friends and I commended them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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10-15-2016, 12:04 AMDaulBanThis is probably the more legitimate counter-argument than 'it makes TP support useless'. Flash is integral to that low level threat work and losing the RB MP refresh would be a fair loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
As for whether or not it'd make TP management less useful... Well, if the Paladin drops to 0 TP 2 minutes before everyone else (fight-dependent of course) then having it draw out a bit longer to sync up with other players needing TP seems a bit more efficient. And they wouldn't need to rely on getting fed Goads by the NIN all the time, since they could just ride the TP train with every other Physical damage-dealer. Especially nice if you don't have a NIN in your party. -
10-15-2016, 04:13 AMFebrusThreat management is already dead below level 40 just by the nature of getting Sword Oath first. Having Riot Blade regen Tp while in Sword Oath won't change that. I know what you mean about Mp management, but Pld's can always just drop stance if they want that Mp regen back (kinda like how Drk works). If anything, having Pld work this way would teach low level Tanks the value of managing stances earlier than Extreme level Trials.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
Either way, enmity wouldn't really be effected. It's garbage below level 40, and it will stay garbage unless SE swaps Sword Oath with Shield at lvl 30.
Tp management skills (such as Goad), are also a non-issue here. We're not talking about a huge dip in utility, because those moves already offer little to no utility as things are now. Out of the tanks, Pld is the only one that ever runs dry on Tp. That's 1/3 tanks who ever saw any use out of those Tp regen skills, and it's by far the least popular tank in the game. If you have a War or a Drk, then Tp regen utilities get sidelined anyway. The same can be said for Dps, as well. Most of the jobs in the game already have adequate resources to manage their Tp without external help, so that help is more often redundant than useful.
Quite frankly, given the way this game's jobs are organized, Tp regen should be redundant. Outside of pre-made or static parties, there's no guarantee that you'll have a Nin, Mch, or Brd in your party; so, why should ANY job in this game be dependent on skills from other jobs that they might not ever see? No one should have to get shot in the leg just to make a single move in someone else's kit feel useful. That's just bad design, no matter how you look at it. -
10-15-2016, 06:58 PMKnahli
If you're flooring MP on Flash spam just to try and hold aggro then I really think that losing Riot Blade's MP Regen is the least of your issues personally. In any case, there's always the hope that they'd swap around the stances in the order that you obtain them at least.
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10-15-2016, 11:23 PMJukebox12
you should not be losing tp as a pld. why are people so complaining about tp as Pld yeah a 3 min fight without no breaks but that won't 100% happen. you have other tools have getting tp by dps and its better for them to use it then riot blade Tp but i mean come on don't be lazy. Ninja as goad brd/mch as tp
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10-15-2016, 11:38 PMADVSSpost 50 pld eats alot of tp for some reason, probably due to skill speed tuning, but it is there way more so than when you were just spamming roh, now that you got goring dot to upkeepQuote:
Originally Posted by Jukebox12
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10-15-2016, 11:45 PMJukebox12Really cuz i never run out of tp you don't need to spam Roh and with high SkP.your clipping Goring blade by Alot. If your mting you should be doing two Roh then never touch Roh keep goring blade up and use Ra only use Roh if you need aggroQuote:
Originally Posted by ADVSS
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10-15-2016, 11:48 PMJukebox12
Also in a three min fight if you just spam Roh you wasting alot of tp without use goring blad. Don't spam Roh Ra is still better unless you need aggro goring blade is wonderful
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10-16-2016, 03:28 AMThe_NPC
I'm against the OP's idea for 1 reason I have saved the day a few times by being the OT backup healer with Clemency & Roit blade... I mean who else is gona heal the MT while both healers are being raised by the SMN? now if Sword oath gave a passive slight boost to TP recovery (like u get 5TP more every tick while its up) then that sounds okay but I've only had a few times were I bottem out in TP for anything I do normally (which ant Savage or EX stuff, just reg dungeons & Alex/24-man raid)
At any rate they plan to re-vamp the cross-class system & skill tress of all classes with 4.0 so we'll probably get something then... & maybe they will finally make all this parry we get more usefull. -
10-16-2016, 03:50 AMAnubis_NephthysOne small thing. PLD's should spend the majority of their time in Sword Oath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galactimus
Good idea, but the tuning would probably have to be lower than you are thinking. -
10-17-2016, 09:06 PMMirch
Having TP issues? get a NIN, BRD or MCH in party, you got none? Don't tank.
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10-17-2016, 09:29 PMchionnThat might be the case for statics, what about partyfinder/raidfinder parties which are random most of the time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirch
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10-17-2016, 09:35 PMADVSSread my post several times till it makes sense. i wasnt talking about rage of halone spam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jukebox12
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10-17-2016, 10:24 PMLilLemayGood, I'd love to see Mage's Ballad and Army's Paeon go useless (and their MCH counterparts) they're cop out "Support" abilities anyway, I want each class to be able to manage it's own resources, if played skillfully enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
Give BRD/MCH some ACTUAL support abilities instead of making them glorified walking batteries with a few actual support things tacked on