[Suggestion to Yoshida and the com] Third Dragoon alternative

Okaaay, I really hope you're not gonna kill me because I'm opening this thread although there are several others featuring the Dragoon discussion. I don't do that because I think I'm oh so great and my idea must be liked by everyone.
But regarding the fact that the Dragoon discussion is quite big with two strongly wishing parties I think or hope that my idea might be a compromise that satisfies both sides.
This is why I want to gather your votes so to speak officially once more because – believe me or not – this issue is killing my sleep.

(And if you do want to kill me...well luckily you don't know where I live...o.o' but please, I really don't want to cause a fight with this. I just need to write it down, otherwise my mind's probably gonna pop...)


Please read through this post and if you like the basic idea please like the post.
(I'll state a lot of suggestions, just so that you can imagine what my idea could look like ingame. For this reason all those things are just my examples and hence not the basic idea that is to be decided about!)


The idea that I have also already posted in the other DRG thread and to that I added ideas from other people's comments is the following one:


A Dragoon that is efficient with and without dragon and that can be played with and without dragon.

Patch 1.20 will bring the job, right? And it will most likely not feature a dragon but imo this is ok.
Because I think first the Dragoon should be implemented in the game and made stable by SE before anything like a dragon could even be added at all.

The dragon could be gained after 2.0 then through a quest, meaning, if you don't want the dragon, you just leave this quest out.


So, why having a dragon at all?

It could be more than just decoration or a Pokemon clone but a valid partner of the dragon knight that can be called when needed (and be sent away anytime, too).
The dragon should be an active part of the fighting, like a team member, just one that doesn't take away any other member's space.


Why two kinds of a Dragoon?

I do not want to suggest to have two kinds of dragoon because like pointed out before it would take the definite character of the dragoon away.
This is why I sugges to see the Dragoon as some kind of dragon knight/dragon rider that possesses his own dragon-like powers and serves as a crit. DD, but that can when desired call an auxiliary.
This means, you can decide.

If you don't want the dragon send it to hell and be the Dragoon with dragon skills like fire breath, jump etc. (I'd love to have those skills and wouldn't mind cool animations of them at all).

But since there are also those that do like to have a dragon with them, it would be an alternative for both.
And I think looking at the Dragoon as a dragon knight with an occasional comrade it would still be one straightly structured class imo.


I see, and the balance?

As Yoshida said, it might be a bit difficult to balance the Dragoon then. Hence my idea to debuff the DRG as long as the dragon takes part in the fight so that summed up they have the same efficiency as the solo DRG.
But then the dragon must be so useful that people are prepared to be debuffed, otherwise the whole thing would be pretty senseless.

So there was this thought: Dragons are like team members, that complement the Dragoon.
They could be of different „types“, resempling different classes.

E.G.
A physical DD
An elemental DD
A tank with buffs
A kind of „thief“ with poisons, DoTs, debuffs etc.

The first advantage in general is that two fight at the same time without leeching the player's exp and if the mob to be fought doesn't turn out as an AoEer only one can recieve damage, the other one stays unaffected.
So, the dragon is supposed to be so efficient that the dragoon's weakened attributes are compensated!
And this weakened state would ony last as long as the dragon is summoned.
This means: If it dies, you are not useless but again the „old“ strong Dragoon.


Further ideas and possibilities

If possible the dragon could be used as mount, e.g. also if you don't like a fighting partner you could still make use of the dragon. (If „air battles“ were possible someday?...but that's another topic.)

The dragon could, like equip, grow emotionally close to the player, enabling special combos or „sacrifications“ (meaning the dragon sacrifices some of its life for yours or even dies for you when you would actually have been killed.)

I also think that the normal healing spells and buffs should work with the dragon so that no new skills would need to be implemented (but that's plain detail).

In respect of the story, it could be told that way: Since there seems to be dragons' blood in the Dragoons they could be able to gain the respect of the otherwise feared dragons (this could also be part of the quest to gain the dragon) and win it as a partner this way.
The Dragoons themself are and stay the wellknown fighters though.


Yes, I'm posting that stupid picture again. It is just for the sake of explaination because imo it shows what I want to say pretty well. ._. *don't kill me*
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/6...d4g2doo.th.jpg



In conclusion:

Those suggestion are related to the time of 2.0 and beyond.

The Dragoon shall stay the way he is ---> a strong DD based upon dragons (also desirably with such skills)

The dragon can be called for help but that's free choice. If called the Dragoon must be weakened a bit for the sake of balance, therefore the dragon has some real use that compensates this state.

Everybody can play the Dragoon the way he wants to and is no useless class for the community.
The dragon is rather supposed to be additional/an add-on, that is implemented later, used to complement the dragoon and not completely destroy or change it.


If you think, this is a possibility to satisfy both parties and would therefore like to have it ingame, please „like“ the post.
It doesn't matter at all if you play with or without dragon in the end. If you like the basic idea and think it could help both sides I'd be more than happy if you guys supported it.

Please like this post if you are against the idea.

Pretty sure this has already been suggested... like 5 times \0\ /0/

it essentially sounds like "let us choose if we want our own wyvern pet or not so everyone will be happy". the same as "let us turn off agro meters"

it not only sounds generic imo, but you also have to remember that balancing isnt an easy issue and not done over night. having a system for one class and one class only that allows its stats to bounce back and forth according to whether or not that person chooses to have a wyvern at that time would be an annoying and arduous feat.... especially for only one class.
im sure other classes would like the special treatment one way or another as well.

this please all mentality does not work very well.

This is similar to how it was in XI. You didn't HAVE to have your pet you called him. Same with Summoner; Carby and others were called upon. The Wyvern (not dragon btw ;) ) was called upon and stayed until killed. Depending on the sub job of the Dragoon themselves, gave their pet some abilities. Example, if subbing Whm then Wyvern would have healing breath.

Edit: Now before you could just call your Wyvern at whim it USE to be what's known for all the non XI players as a 2 hour ability; they could do something similar here in XIV. This way calling your pet would be the "OH SHIT" moment only need not a consistent "partner" and slot filler in a PT.

@ Geesus

Ah, I see! I haven't played FFXI but from all what I have read it sounded like the wyvern wasn't that effective, especially if dead the dragoon lacked of power.

@ Dreadnought

I see your point and I DO think it is difficult but I don't think that it is as drastic as you say. But again I'm not into fighting, it's just how I see things.
Of course balance is an important issue but I'm not calling for this option now but for like...more than a year? I am positive that until a wyvern might be released the developers will have worked out a balance because till then also the dragoon should be balanced.
Besides what I thought of was like a debuff. When you get downgraded ingame your stats are bouncing too. Basically with all the effects in fights stats are bouncing temporarily. So imo it could also be possible to use the dragon as a "debuff".
I don't really consider it annoying but that's personal. Of course I'd prefer not to be downgraded at all but that would really imbalance the Dragoon so the downgrade would be a makeshift.
What I agree about though is the thing with the other classe's special treatment.
But again, I didn't make this thread (with obviously already stated ideas, sorry for that) to convince everybody to love wyverns but to vote for an alternative, so that both sides can play the way they want to, though I don't really agree with your comparison but hey, that's just my view. :)
Keep in mind, it's just a suggestion, I don't think it is the holy grail of FF14 but it is still my concern to have it posted.



@ RemVye

Didn't know that. :P

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Originally Posted by Geesus

This is similar to how it was in XI. You didn't HAVE to have your pet you called him. Same with Summoner; Carby and others were called upon. The Wyvern (not dragon btw ;) ) was called upon and stayed until killed. Depending on the sub job of the Dragoon themselves, gave their pet some abilities. Example, if subbing Whm then Wyvern would have healing breath.

Edit: Now before you could just call your Wyvern at whim it USE to be what's known for all the non XI players as a 2 hour ability; they could do something similar here in XIV. This way calling your pet would be the "OH SHIT" moment only need not a consistent "partner" and slot filler in a PT.

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the difference is no ones stats changed on whether or not the pet was called. if your wyvern died then you were gimped, if carby died you needed to get the hell out of there lol

I wonder if Yoshida regrets ever mentioning the wyvren thing...

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Patch 1.20 will bring the job, right?

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no.... 1.21

When they implement pets, there should be a dragon pet and that's about it. Class should be balanced as if the pet doesnt exist.

I like your suggestion in regards to not implementing or considering the pet until 2.0. Balance Dragoon now around the other jobs. And should the level cap increase, reconsider job quests that unlock new abilities and/or a wyvern pet.

And I do understand that need to want to express your ideas and get them out somewhere that can be shared. Yoshida and others know all too well that ideas should not be left alone in a realm that cannot be touched.

Looking back at the topic and considering Yoshida's thoughts on this at this time...

I think that if a Dragoon were to have a pet, that the abilities the Dragoon would be doing anyway would have bonuses.

Weapon Skill 3 has deals damage, triggers wyvern breath, has moderate cooldown as to not be spammed.
A combo from Weapon Skill 1 to Weapon Skill 3 boosts the wyvern's breath attack (combo of choice).
A combo from Weapon Skill 2 to Weapon Skill 3 causes wyvern's breath attack to AoE.
A combo from Weapon Skill 1 to Weapon Skill 4 ignores defense when attacking (use while WS3 on CD or if wyvern dies).
Wyvern pet dies, Dragoon still has a damage output comparable to other DDs. If wyvern is alive and proper abilities used, Dragoon has the capacity to easily do more damage than other DDs.

*attempts to toss the idea out there like a frisbee, but it gets shot down by bbqsauce arrows*

I prefer the traditional Dragoon that can do everything by itself without a wyvern.

what is this obsession on having pet??? just wait for pet class, having pet doesnt make the Dragoon job more interesting, nuff said

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

the difference is no ones stats changed on whether or not the pet was called. if your wyvern died then you were gimped, if carby died you needed to get the hell out of there lol

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This is what I never understood, Dragoon itself was a powerful job, the Wyvern enhanced that power, but if you lost the Wyvern you weren't gimped or hindered unless you were solo, which the Wyvern was a source of healing for you, but with a wyvern out, your Jumps were enhanced but even without a wyvern, Soul and Spirit jump were pretty damn good, granted you yourself weren't gimped lol. (I.e you didn't burn from 30 - 95.)

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

I wonder if Yoshida regrets ever mentioning the wyvren thing...

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I'm pretty sure he regrets even being linked to this game project with how this community is lol.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I prefer the traditional Dragoon that can do everything by itself without a wyvern.

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So you prefer just a job that can only attack with a spear and use the jump ability? (That's the classic one.) FFXI's Dragoon did everything the classic one did and more due to having a Wyvern to enhance it's power.

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Originally Posted by Aion

what is this obsession on having pet??? just wait for pet class, having pet doesnt make the Dragoon job more interesting, nuff said

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That's subjective honestly, since realistically a Dragoon is nothing different from a Marauder, the only thing it would do differently is being able to Jump as an attack. Having a pet with Dragoon was just a different take on the job (which they've always fought along side and against Dragons traditionally.)

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

So you prefer just a job that can only attack with a spear and use the jump ability? (That's the classic one.) FFXI's Dragoon did everything the classic one did and more due to having a Wyvern to enhance it's power.

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I suggest you read up here to learn more.
http://www.ffcompendium.com/h/jobs/dragoon.shtml

You might want to look at this to while you're at it. It is very educational.


As you can see, FF11 Dragoon actually did less, even with a wyvern..

If they're going to create a pet/mount system where we can fight with our chocobos, then just make a pet/mount wyvern that is exclusive to Dragoons and has the same penalties/benefits as fighting with some other type of pet/mount. That way people who want to be FFXI traditionalists can have their wyvern and it won't affect the balancing of the class at all because it will be part of a system that is available to all classes.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I suggest you read up here to learn more.

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The classic Dragoon could only use the Jump command, this is what set them apart from the others and always been one of the more unique Jobs to exist, much like Summoner set itself apart from black mage by having cinematic destruction -- Throughout FF history they added on abilities and power to the Dragoon job, which adding a wyvern was yet another addition to it and given that FFXI was released in 2002, Dragoon in 2003, that falls in line with "classic" if you consider Freya's playstyle "traditional".

When you generally hear classic, you're immediately think of the first set of Dragoons, which wasn't that different aside being able to Jump which was always calculated as a critical type hit.

FFXI's Dragoon is essentially the same as dragoons before them, the only different is XI Dragoon has a wyvern. That's about it. Jumps have always been one of their main source of damage. XI's DRG, in a way, could function without the wyvern, especially if you're strictly meleeing.

When you're in Dynamis, and you're a melee DRG, y ou're very likely to lose your wyvern early on. Same with Einherjar, same with most of the endgame events due to heavy AoE damage, that wyverns won't be able due to this.

XI's DRGs have Jumps. Past dragoons have jumps.

XI's DRGs uses spear. Past Dragoons uses spears.

So what's the different? XI's DRGs have wyverns for pet. Past Dragoons don't have it. Take away the wyverns, they're almost identical, except obviously built to support for MMORPG settings.

Dragoons, int he older game uses jump instead of fight for their source of damage. If anything, FFXI's Dragoon is similar to FF TActics Dragoon, but overall, they're the same as traditional Dragoons.

Edit: Also, In this sense, FFXI's DRG is very similar to Freya. She has jumps, and she has standard fighting and so on.

It perplexes me that people thought that Dragoons in FFXI are useless without the wyvern. Yes. Wyvern gives Dragoon extra boost, but can Dragoons fight efficiently without wyverns? Oh God Yes. The exception is the mage subs, but face it, the subjobs thing is more so FFXI's unique trait than Dragoon itself. IF you take the wyvern away, Dragoons are almost exactly similar to dragoons before FFXI.

Just that their new abilities give Dragoons even more boost WITh the wyverns out.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

This is what I never understood, Dragoon itself was a powerful job, the Wyvern enhanced that power, but if you lost the Wyvern you weren't gimped or hindered unless you were solo, which the Wyvern was a source of healing for you, but with a wyvern out, your Jumps were enhanced but even without a wyvern, Soul and Spirit jump were pretty damn good, granted you yourself weren't gimped lol. (I.e you didn't burn from 30 - 95.)



I'm pretty sure he regrets even being linked to this game project with how this community is lol.



So you prefer just a job that can only attack with a spear and use the jump ability? (That's the classic one.) FFXI's Dragoon did everything the classic one did and more due to having a Wyvern to enhance it's power.



That's subjective honestly, since realistically a Dragoon is nothing different from a Marauder, the only thing it would do differently is being able to Jump as an attack. Having a pet with Dragoon was just a different take on the job (which they've always fought along side and against Dragons traditionally.)

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please be consistent

and as I recall, Marauder is using axe,no?

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

The classic Dragoon could only use the Jump command, this is what set them apart from the others and always been one of the more unique Jobs to exist, much like Summoner set itself apart from black mage by having cinematic destruction -- Throughout FF history they added on abilities and power to the Dragoon job, which adding a wyvern was yet another addition to it and given that FFXI was released in 2002, Dragoon in 2003, that falls in line with "classic" if you consider Freya's playstyle "traditional".

When you generally hear classic, you're immediately think of the first set of Dragoons, which wasn't that different aside being able to Jump which was always calculated as a critical type hit.

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I see where you're coming at, lets go beyond FF11.. Say FF12RW, and FF13 the character Fang.

Main point across, The wyvern in FF11 added nothing new that the Dragoon in the past could already do. In fact it did less. When that wyvern dies, there goes all the breath attacks/dps with it.

I don't want that. I personally don't want DRG to be turned into a pet class.

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Originally Posted by Aion

please be consistent

and as I recall, Marauder is using axe,no?

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It is consistent -- As in it's just another frontline attacker, much like in other games that had Dragoon. Jump is what set Dragoon apart till they started adding more abilities to it over the years.

If FF14 DRG can do Highwind/Jump like this or better I'll be happy no matter what.

I for one am looking forward to the strong possibility that FFXIV might be the first Final Fantasy Online game where the Dragoon job is so strong, it doesn't have to call for backup. Ever.

The only reason I'd want the Wyvern back is because I thought it was kind of cool. I never noticed much in the way of "added" abilities when I played. Someone made the point about Dynamis and other EoG battles, your Wyvern would wipe after the first wave; so true but I believe that's why it went from a 2hour to a whenever you want to call with a decent 30 minute cool down, could be wrong. Otherwise, Wyverns really only helped a Drag when you ran solo, like the path companions in XI. I don't need a Wyvern in battle as a constant, a simple 2 hour would work IF it was worth using. If you gimp it then it's use less as the Wyverns didn't do THAT much to help or hinder the group. As I said earlier, it was an "OH SHIT" ability! LOL ;)

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

I for one am looking forward to the strong possibility that FFXIV might be the first Final Fantasy Online game where the Dragoon job is so strong, it doesn't have to call for backup. Ever.

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I can agree with this. Playing a Drg in XI was so painful and no one wanted to PT with you unless you every piece of gear and ACC gear. They Wyvern DIDN'T matter at all. It was there, it was neat to have flying around and really that was all for me. I don't think I ever used it other than to just run around and farm/solo stuff...that was it. IMHO, I'd like it and an additional quest later to get it would be cool or having it as a "special mount" yay; I'd prefer a Wyvern mount for my Dragoon rather than a damned Gobue. :P

I think a dragoon job with abilities from the other games like fire/ice/lightning breath attacks, lancet (different version of bloodbath but with mp as well), and superb DPS would be much more fun than playing a dragoon job that just has a tag along wyvern that does the special things for you that dragoon has been able to do by itself in the tactics advance series, and other games. Who knows what other neat abilities the dev team would make up for a wyvernless, powerful dragoon that we'd miss out on if it had a wyvern and needed to be balanced and weakened?

And don't forget, jobs in FF XIV are designed for 8 member party content, where a full automated or half automated wyver can die easy. An AI is not good like a full human controlled char.

When it comes down to brass tacks, at this point any compromise is going to feel like just that; a compromise. Both groups will feel like their opinions were taken less into account. The only way to please everyone at this point will be to release two Jobs for Lancer, one Dragoon and one Dragon Tamer(esk) class. Even that is going to be problematic, since they will effectively be forced to split the abilities that were originally one, whole and complete, concept into two disparate categories. Who gets Jump, for instance, Dragoon or Dragon Tamer (well, obviously Dragoon, it may be more accurate to say, does the pet job or the petless job get Jump)? I think the community is going to be a bit sour about this one regardless.

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Originally Posted by Geesus

The only reason I'd want the Wyvern back is because I thought it was kind of cool. I never noticed much in the way of "added" abilities when I played. Someone made the point about Dynamis and other EoG battles, your Wyvern would wipe after the first wave; so true but I believe that's why it went from a 2hour to a whenever you want to call with a decent 30 minute cool down, could be wrong. Otherwise, Wyverns really only helped a Drag when you ran solo, like the path companions in XI. I don't need a Wyvern in battle as a constant, a simple 2 hour would work IF it was worth using. If you gimp it then it's use less as the Wyverns didn't do THAT much to help or hinder the group. As I said earlier, it was an "OH SHIT" ability! LOL ;)

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You know, I hadn't really considered it before, but reading this, I think the reason that DRG's Call Wyvern ability was a 2hr at first was because originally the DRG wasn't supposed to be a pet job. If you think of it in that context, some of the stranger decisions early in FFXI make more sense. If the Wyvern was just supposed to be their cool "big attack" like Manafont, and only supposed to appear, help out, then die fairly quickly, the original design of DRG makes quite a bit more sense. The players put it to a completely different use, which caused the developers to rethink the entire concept into what it is today. Oh well, total tangent, but it's an interesting thought.

I liked your idea for the quest to get the dragoon job. but this games lore states that the dragoons in this game hunts dragons. A good idea for the quest would be a choice at the end, to join the dragoons or the dragons, and that this choice will affect if you have a pet or not.

Was waiting to see if someone would mention the lore here. As it stands, all dragons are a threat to humans and Dragoons hunt and kill dragons in order to protect Ishgard. Dragoons are trained to hunt and kill dragons. It's forbidden to even look a dragon in the eyes, and if you're friendly with one, you can be sure you'll be executed in Ishgard. It'd be pretty out of place for Dragoons to start running around with friendly little dragon buddies. At the very least, obtaining a wyvern means you shouldn't even be able to set foot in Ishgard ever again. Nevermind the moral implications of your dragon friend enjoying the murder and slaughter of his own race. Good times.

They could change the lore I guess, but so far they've been pretty resistant to that. I don't see that happening. Even if they would, I'd rather see a Dragoon with dragon-like abilities like Lancet, similar to Freya from FF9. The wyvern always seemed like a gimmick to me. I think the dev team could do much better than that.

No Dragons for Dragoons please.

This has been over a million times.

The majority of players DO NOT WANT a wyvern pet for DRG.

Strange as it is to grasp, most of the opposition to wyvern pets has absolutely nothing to do with balancing the job. We oppose the Wyvern because of FF lore. We want a traditional FF dragoon ala Kain or Freya, not the FFXI wyvern gimmick.

When the Beastmaster class/job is added, you pet lovers can have all the Wyvern/Drake/Peiste/Snurble pets you want. But leave DRG as it should be.

No amount of polling, brainstorming, or tweaking is going to change my mind on this, and I'm sure many others are in the same boat.

Pretty much my thought on the matter right here.

http://zantetsuken.net/wp-content/up...p13-banner.jpg

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

We oppose the Wyvern because of FF lore.

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http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/D..._Fantasy_II%29

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The first dragoon was a knight by the name of Haan, who visited Deist, the island home of the Wyverns. During his time on the island, he formed a bond with the wyverns over a thirty-year period, the first of what would eventually be many to do so.

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Also:

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Though this is the first appearance of Dragoons in the series

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Fighting along side dragonkin are indeed in FF lore just as fighting against them are. So you can't oppose a wyvern pet because it's not in FF lore, you oppose it because you personally don't want one, which is fine.

Don't forget we'll be having content where we defend Ishgard from dragons xD

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/D..._Fantasy_II%29


The first dragoon was a knight by the name of Haan, who visited Deist, the island home of the Wyverns. During his time on the island, he formed a bond with the wyverns over a thirty-year period, the first of what would eventually be many to do so.

Also:


Fighting along side dragonkin are indeed in FF lore just as fighting against them are. So you can't oppose a wyvern pet because it's not in FF lore, you oppose it because you personally don't want one, which is fine.

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It was used as a mount to fly to the emperor and escape. That is all it did.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/D..._Fantasy_II%29



Also:


Fighting along side dragonkin are indeed in FF lore just as fighting against them are. So you can't oppose a wyvern pet because it's not in FF lore, you oppose it because you personally don't want one, which is fine.

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heh,

I guess you learn something new (or old) every day. I finished FFII years ago, but I can barely recall a thing about it - a rather forgettable game and one of the worst in the series IMHO.

Yes, there are exceptions to the DRG lore, just as there is a single exception to the role of Necromancers in the series. But the simple fact is that those are exceptions and not the rule.

The role of the Dragoon was cemented with Kain and reinforced in successive FF games (Tactics included). We've had the wyvern pet in FFXI and that was fine. This is a new game and most FFXIV players want a DRG job in the mold of Kain and Freya.

WAIT. . . what if it could only be summoned if your hp is really low? Think of it like "blood spilled" causes it to appear. That or we just get draconic abilities.

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Originally Posted by Loggos

So, why having a dragon at all?

It could be more than just decoration or a Pokemon clone but a valid partner of the dragon knight that can be called when needed (and be sent away anytime, too).
The dragon should be an active part of the fighting, like a team member, just one that doesn't take away any other member's space.

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No, thanks. The red part is exactly why we are having all this DRG issue...by not using party slot means that DRG + pet must be even to a petless class, forcing SE to weakens both DRG and Wyvern.