What job was she?

What job do you guys think Alisaie turned into in 3.4?

I don't know if it was RDM because it didn't look like she was holding a rapier

There's already a post about this on the second page of this subforum :p the tl;dr of the "we don't know but it could be" boiled down to:

Red Mage
Rune Fencer
Mystic Knight

Red Mage for sure. If you speak to her in the rising stones she spouts off some line about not focusing on one area of magic.

Nothing is "for sure" until we're told so.

Red Mage is... heavily implied, but we do not yet know.

Arcanists are already "jacks of all trades" of magic at low levels and it's heavily implied the twins are Arcanists (they use Grimoires). Arcanists can nuke and heal at low levels and have negligible differences in int/mnd pre 30. I

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Red Mage for sure. If you speak to her in the rising stones she spouts off some line about not focusing on one area of magic.

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On the other hand her defining characteristic was sword magic. My inclination is that, given what Yoshi has said in the past about Red Mage not really suiting the tank/healer/DPS paradigm, it's going to be Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer but with lore that cribs from Red Mage. Much the same way that Summoner/Scholar/Arcanist cannibalize some of the thematics of Calculator.

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Originally Posted by Fiaryn

On the other hand her defining characteristic was sword magic. My inclination is that, given what Yoshi has said in the past about Red Mage not really suiting the tank/healer/DPS paradigm, it's going to be Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer but with lore that cribs from Red Mage. Much the same way that Summoner/Scholar/Arcanist cannibalize some of the thematics of Calculator.

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go team mystic knight!

A plot device.

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Originally Posted by Fiaryn

On the other hand her defining characteristic was sword magic. My inclination is that, given what Yoshi has said in the past about Red Mage not really suiting the tank/healer/DPS paradigm, it's going to be Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer but with lore that cribs from Red Mage. Much the same way that Summoner/Scholar/Arcanist cannibalize some of the thematics of Calculator.

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You know I hadn't even considered that possibility, that's a good one. (The cannibalization of Red Mage and weaving it to another class)

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Originally Posted by Rocl

You know I hadn't even considered that possibility, that's a good one. (The cannibalization of Red Mage and weaving it to another class)

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well technically in order for a mystic knight to use a spell sword ability, you had to have at least learned or possessed the spell, so i guess it would make more sense if they expanded on it and gave it fire as well as fire sword, or something. i dunno. Whatever she did though had to be its limit break, hopefully it will give us something new, a melee caster, or a true magic tank, or something. Doubt theyll make it a tank branching from acn, that would be silly but very unexpected

FF Dimensions for iPhone was a more modern take on FF5. In FFD, RDM learned up to level 2 magic, but also learned Spellsword at a high job level. Those spells were like Drain Sword, Stone Sword, Aspir Blade etc. So if RDM had Sword Magic in FFXI and FFD, it's not too huge of a stretch for RDM to have it if they appear in FFXIV. So if BLM/SCH/SMN/ARC/BRD/MCH are ranged jobs that have cast bars for their GCD, maybe RDM will be a close range job with cast bars on their GCD, and they'd have rotations. Honestly if SAM is DPS, I can see RDM being a tank, because they could have Aspir Blade (Siphon Strike/Riot Blade), Drain Blade (Inner Beast/Souleater), Flat Blade (Leg sweep, Shield Bash), Cura (Clemency), Thundara (Unmend/Shield Lob/Tomahawk), Fira (Flash/Unleash), Blizzara (Soiled Earth), Wall (Rampart), Phalanx (Sentinel), and Riposte/Reflex (Reprisal). DPS rotation could be elemental sword hits. Or they could have Spellblade stances that give them various effects like NIN;s poisons that alter the secondary effects of their oGCDs. Like turn Enthunder on to give Riposte a stun effect, or with Enfire, Riposte adds a DoT. I just don't see them adding 2 DPS jobs in 4.0 and SAM I doubt would be a tank because they would look dumb in heavy plate armor. SAM would likely share Maiming gear with DRG because it's medium weight.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

FF Dimensions for iPhone was a more modern take on FF5. In FFD, RDM learned up to level 2 magic, but also learned Spellsword at a high job level. Those spells were like Drain Sword, Stone Sword, Aspir Blade etc. So if RDM had Sword Magic in FFXI and FFD, it's not too huge of a stretch for RDM to have it if they appear in FFXIV. So if BLM/SCH/SMN/ARC/BRD/MCH are ranged jobs that have cast bars for their GCD, maybe RDM will be a close range job with cast bars on their GCD, and they'd have rotations. Honestly if SAM is DPS, I can see RDM being a tank. SAM would likely share Maiming gear with DRG because it's medium weight.

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yeah its possible for either job to go either way imo, but what youre saying holds alot of bearing, could be red mage if they took mystic knight out of dimensions, guess flare sword was just too amazing lol

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Originally Posted by Fiaryn

On the other hand her defining characteristic was sword magic. My inclination is that, given what Yoshi has said in the past about Red Mage not really suiting the tank/healer/DPS paradigm, it's going to be Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer but with lore that cribs from Red Mage. Much the same way that Summoner/Scholar/Arcanist cannibalize some of the thematics of Calculator.

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Red Mage is 10000% better for marketing so it'd be the other way around with Red Mage taking a bunch of stuff from other sources.

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Originally Posted by Fiaryn

My inclination is that, given what Yoshi has said in the past about Red Mage not really suiting the tank/healer/DPS paradigm, it's going to be Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer but with lore that cribs from Red Mage.

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I don't really see why RDM wouldn't fit the paradigm, all you would have to do is take away it's healing spells for it to become a dps. Then just give it some magic sword skills and voila... It could even keep a healing spell/action as a self heal (akin to Second Wind) to keep the 'all round' idea.

(I could really see it work with a regular damage combo that stocks a resource, which can then be used to release an elemental attack to invoke the idea of magic being used. But that is neither here nor there. We will have to see what SE does with the class, if they indeed use it.)

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Originally Posted by Alice_89th

I don't really see why RDM wouldn't fit the paradigm, all you would have to do is take away it's healing spells for it to become a dps. Then just give it some magic sword skills and voila... It could even keep a healing spell/action as a self heal (akin to Second Wind) to keep the 'all round' idea.

(I could really see it work with a regular damage combo that stocks a resource, which can then be used to release an elemental attack to invoke the idea of magic being used. But that is neither here nor there. We will have to see what SE does with the class, if they indeed use it.)

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Exactly. In theory ANY existing FF job could be made to fit within FFXIV's trinity paradigm; all it takes is a little creativity in reshaping their toolset whilst retaining the core gameplay and themes. The same goes for Blue Mage which is also regularly said to be impossible with XIV's role structure. If anything though, I would much rather we just get hybrid jobs that are forced to lock into a role in the DF and have their skills limited when in group content. Let RDMs be a jack of all trades and then simply choose to be a healer or dps when queueing. There are other MMOs that do this and it works fine.

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Originally Posted by Alice_89th

I don't really see why RDM wouldn't fit the paradigm, all you would have to do is take away it's healing spells for it to become a dps. Then just give it some magic sword skills and voila... It could even keep a healing spell/action as a self heal (akin to Second Wind) to keep the 'all round' idea.

(I could really see it work with a regular damage combo that stocks a resource, which can then be used to release an elemental attack to invoke the idea of magic being used. But that is neither here nor there. We will have to see what SE does with the class, if they indeed use it.)

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Summoner can raise being a dps, Red Mage having some single target healing could be done in a way it could be useful in emergency situations but obviously not on the level of a healer.

I'd actually prefer for them to focus on more Non-FF jobs

If you take away Red Mage's healing spells, it becomes a watered-down Black Mage.

If you take away Red Mage's damage spells, it becomes a watered-down White Mage.

The core of Red Mage's identity is that it is both a Black Mage and White Mage at the same time, just not to the effectiveness of either. Take away the ability to do either in any situation and it's no longer really a Red Mage, yeah?

... that's not to say they couldn't add something like "Black Mage Stance" and "White Mage Stance" to boost damage and healing, respectively, or have it branch like Arcanist does into "Scarlet (Black) Mage" and "Rose (White) Mage." Something like that.

Either way, we don't yet know what class Alisae is/was. Maybe Red Mage, maybe Rune Fencer, maybe Mystic Knight, maybe something new.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

... that's not to say they couldn't add something like "Black Mage Stance" and "White Mage Stance" to boost damage and healing, respectively, or have it branch like Arcanist does into "Scarlet (Black) Mage" and "Rose (White) Mage." Something like that.

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Or take what's already there, cleric stance, and be done.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

If you take away Red Mage's healing spells, it becomes a watered-down Black Mage.

If you take away Red Mage's damage spells, it becomes a watered-down White Mage.

The core of Red Mage's identity is that it is both a Black Mage and White Mage at the same time, just not to the effectiveness of either. Take away the ability to do either in any situation and it's no longer really a Red Mage, yeah?

... that's not to say they couldn't add something like "Black Mage Stance" and "White Mage Stance" to boost damage and healing, respectively, or have it branch like Arcanist does into "Scarlet (Black) Mage" and "Rose (White) Mage." Something like that.

Either way, we don't yet know what class Alisae is/was. Maybe Red Mage, maybe Rune Fencer, maybe Mystic Knight, maybe something new.

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Red mages were never just about the black and white magic. They were also competent physical fighters. The one thing that has been consistent about red mages across all games, is their status as a jack of all trades. While a black or white mage were basically useless if they ran out of mp, a red mage could still do respectable damage with just about any weapon.

I'm well aware that Red Mages are competent melee fighters on top of being able to cast both white and black magic. I had one in my FFI party.

The problem is that in modern MMOs roles are highly specialized. They always were in pen and paper RPGs, but video games took a different route since until MMOs they couldn't be reliably channeled except through things like Cover or Job systems. In VII, for instance, everyone has an implicit Job (Cloud is a Fighter, Tifa is a Monk, Aerith is a White Mage, etc.) but you can build them however you like. There's always an optimal setup, but in single-player games that doesn't matter too much. In MMOs, on the other hand...

People will generally gravitate towards the Jobs that are most powerful / efficient. A "jack of all trades" Job like Red Mage trades efficiency for versatility: yes, they can use Black Magic, but not as well as a Black Mage. Yes, they can use White Magic, but not as well as a White Mage. Yes, they can use melee weapons, but not as well as a Warrior.

The conundrum comes from the fact that Red Mages have to be able to do all of those things: melee damage, spell damage, and healing all at once without outshining their specialized counterparts, but well enough to the point that people still want to play the Job. Remember, efficiency is the price you pay for versatility, so... how do you keep Red Mage's identity intact without making it woefully underpowered to the point nobody wants to play it or so blatantly overpowered nobody wants to play anything but it except for tanks?

It's not an easy question to answer. I have faith they will one day implement Red Mage, but in what shape or form I could not say.

... and I really don't need the lecture.

Honestly if a couple of paladin's skills had "black magic" flavor on them (Shield Lob, Flash, Cirlce of Scorn maybe) then their skillset would be close to red mage.

White magic can be covered by a couple of utility and restricted healing (cooldowns, high mp cost, etc) spells. Black magic and melee attacking are easy to cover as well. I see no reason why they'd have any trouble implementing Red Mage in a DPS or tank role. Just because a job can do a lot of different things doesn't mean it has to be a generalist. BLM has some nice defensive cooldowns and utility abilities but it isn't a tank.

I wonder if it would be interesting to give the Red Mage caster and melee stances, sort of like ast's sects. Like in melee stance your spells and other attacks are instant but only have melee range, and in caster stance they would have increased range (and probably power to offset the absence of auto attacks) but have cast times. Maybe add some other effects that change depending on stance to truly differentiate them. Then give them some raid utility spells (maybe something like enfire to increase party damage for a while) and a heal on cooldown and you've a pretty versatile job.

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Originally Posted by Rita1989

Summoner can raise being a dps, Red Mage having some single target healing could be done in a way it could be useful in emergency situations but obviously not on the level of a healer.

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I mean, they did give paladin clemency, I don't see why something similar to this couldn't be done for RDM

Every class has some emergency self-healing to make solo play (and to a lesser extent PvP) more feasible.

PLD has healing from CNJ and Clemency.
WAR has Bloodbath, Inner Beast, and Equilibrium.
DRK has Souleater, Dark Arts Abyssal Drain, and Sole Survivor.
MNK has Second Wind.
DRG has Life Surge.
BRD has access to Second Wind.
BLM has access to ACN healing.
SMN has access to ACN healing and resurrection. (It does branch off from ACN, y'know...)

Most every class already has access to spot heals, albeit not as powerful as a proper healer and/or self-only.

The core of RDM's identity is its ability to do anything - physical damage, magic damage, and healing - just not as well as the specialized classes. It makes them very useful in the early game, but that usefulness wanes as it goes on and the specialized classes eventually eclipse Red Mages / Red Wizards to the point having something else is often preferable. (I personally used my Red Wizard as little more than an item mule at the end of my first, last, and only run of I, and switch out of it by the time I get the Fire Crystal jobs in III because it's already lagging behind.)

How do you keep that identity intact without making it so underpowered nobody wants to play it to compensate for that versatility (which is exactly what happened with AST on 3.0 launch), but without giving it so much functionality thanks to that versatility that it's more useful than the other classes?

... I can think of ways to make it interesting (melee attacks at point blank only, healing spells at midrange only, damage spells at long range only), but not a way to resolve that.

BRD only had access to CNJ abilities in 1.0
In ARR/Heavensward it crosses with PGL and has access to Second Wind.

Arcanist's Resurrection cannot be cross classed. Black Mage can use Physick from it though.

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The core of RDM's identity is its ability to do anything - physical damage, magic damage, and healing - just not as well as the specialized classes.

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If SAM is going to be a melee DPS (shares maiming armor with DRG), it's quite likely RDM will be a tank. Remember, the one role that can Heal/DPS without swapping stances is TANK. PLD has DPS and Clemency, WAR has DPS and Inner Beast/Equilibrium, DRK has DPS and Souleater. A RDM could easily be a tank and have Cura/Draining Slash as their Clemency/Souleater.

Why are we talking about how RDM would perform mechanics wise in the Lore Forum instead of Other Battle Classes, DPS Roles or *shudder* General Discussion? If SE wants to make it work, they'll make it work and if it's not balanced for end-game, they'll eventually buff it or patch it and THEN we'll complain that RDM is OP.

What we should care about is if it'll fit the Lore and it may as well do. We don't know for sure but it could, but since everything is aether and conjurer and arcanist can already use magic to heal and attack, we just need an npc to add swordplay to it and there's the Red Mage. It's not our job to say "they can't do it because mechanics", it IS, however, to say "they could/couldn't theoreticaly do it since Gelmorrans/Mhachi/Allagans/an-area-in-the-x-pac-we-don't-know-about-yet"

I feel like they would do things more along the lines of Spell-Enhancements rather than just taking from WHM/BLM skills. My idea is that they work with WHM/BLM in a way like:
Enthunder
Enfira
Enwatera
...
etc.
Except rdms wouldn't get affected by how whms only use water, earth and wind spells, and blackmages elemental limitations, RDM would have the full range of elements to work with when doing their job mechanics--whether they be tank or dps.

alisaie's blade of light was the gathering of what I am assuming is unaspected aether since we kind of power-bombed it, but maybe in lesser doses we can attune it to different elements, each where they have a different buff and debuff they can give to the party ...and stuff. lol

RDM would be a cool off-tank/dps tbh but like the others said before, mmos are pretty set in stone with job dynamics. ( and perhaps it will be the first job to have haste as a spell...but that sounds OP lol)

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

Why are we talking about how RDM would perform mechanics wise in the Lore Forum instead of Other Battle Classes, DPS Roles or *shudder* General Discussion? If SE wants to make it work, they'll make it work and if it's not balanced for end-game, they'll eventually buff it or patch it and THEN we'll complain that RDM is OP.

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Personally I think it's because they need to know how it'll be balanced in gameplay before implementing it; perhaps I'm putting the horse before the cart, but they can make up whatever lore they want to justify its addition, i.e.

"Red Mages are the product Sharlayan rogues adapting their magical abilities to suit any situation. With spellblade in hand, they wade into the thick of battle unlike their counterparts, wielding both destructive and restorative magicks to draw their enemies' attention. Using those same magicks to reinforce their bodies, Red Mages prepare contingency plans for all eventualities and control the flow of battle."

... if they added it as a tank class as suggested above. That would get a lot of fuss from people, though, because it wouldn't be RDM's traditional "jack of all trades" flavor; it would be trading a good chunk of its damage output in favor of increased survivability. (Tanks don't have the best damage capabilities, Deliverance WARs aside. Have I told you about my lord and savior Fell Cleave?)

Granted, I do think they'll be adding it. In 4.0 even, if the hints in the Rising last year, Alisae's commentary when spoken to right now, and the way she fought alongside us are any indication. I just don't know what role it'll play because it's the definitive "jack of all trades, master of none" Job in a game designed around the MMO paradigm of the iconic "tank, healer, DPS" specialized roles. Making it the "jack of all trades, master of none" will make it underpowered and nobody will want to play it, while defying that in favor of making it fit one of the three iconic roles will cause people to flip out about how it's not a traditional RDM (or: DRK is now a tank, drains MP for Darkside instead of HP).

I'm excited to see what they do with Red Mage. The fuss it's likely to raise over not fitting its traditional mold and/or being OP or too nerfed... not so much.

(Still sticking with my current class. Edgelord 4 lyfe!)

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... if they added it as a tank class as suggested above. That would get a lot of fuss from people, though, because it wouldn't be RDM's traditional "jack of all trades" flavor; it would be trading a good chunk of its damage output in favor of increased survivability. (Tanks don't have the best damage capabilities, Deliverance WARs aside. Have I told you about my lord and savior Fell Cleave?)

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Actually RDM's DPS output as a 'jack of all trades' would fit nicely with a tank's DPS output anyway. RDM was never a major DPS in any FF game anyway.

My take on RDM's lore (especially since it was strongly hinted at Fanfest) is that it's how the Ala Mhigans found a way to weave magic with their weapon in a way more fitting warlike culture. Or maybe they're Ala Mhigan mage killers?

I just hope we get a Joyeuse as a relic weapon.

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Originally Posted by CyrusArjuna

I just hope we get a Joyeuse as a relic weapon.

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Ehh? What's so special about Percival's sword?

Or is it one of those XI things? I bet it is!

Joyeuse has also been used for Red Mages in FFTA and A2, where rapiers were exclusive to Red Mage (and elementalist)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Ehh? What's so special about Percival's sword?

Or is it one of those XI things? I bet it is!

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Dosne;t have to be XI related, SE takes their names from everywhere, regardless of its significance in its original context. And this goes the other way as well with the world-rending events Ragnarok, Apocalypse and Armageddon being given to the weapons in this game. Any name in mythology (Including literature such as the Bible and The Song of Roland) is fair game.

This also means for example Fail-Not is a candidate for a BRD relic, despite Tristain being relatively unimportant (one tragic love story aside) compared to Arthur and Lancelot.

Also I thought Joyeuse was Charlemange's sword.

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Originally Posted by CyrusArjuna

My take on RDM's lore (especially since it was strongly hinted at Fanfest) is that it's how the Ala Mhigans found a way to weave magic with their weapon in a way more fitting warlike culture. Or maybe they're Ala Mhigan mage killers?

I just hope we get a Joyeuse as a relic weapon.

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yeah i can easilly romanticize some sort of mage hunter/witch/demon hunter hell that hat looks very hellsing-ish

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Dosne;t have to be XI related, SE takes their names from everywhere, regardless of its significance in its original context. And this goes the other way as well with the world-rending events Ragnarok, Apocalypse and Armageddon being given to the weapons in this game. Any name in mythology (Including literature such as the Bible and The Song of Roland) is fair game.

This also means for example Fail-Not is a candidate for a BRD relic, despite Tristain being relatively unimportant (one tragic love story aside) compared to Arthur and Lancelot.

Also I thought Joyeuse was Charlemange's sword.

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You're right... I had it mixed up.

And it was just a sardonic joke poking fun at how utterly predictable it would be for someone to say "It was RDM's relic weapon in XI, so I want it to be here too!" because that is exactly the case. Second search for "Joyeuse" using Google is "Joyeuse ffxi." Damn I'm smart!

You expect me to believe someone wants it because it was Red Mage's signature weapon in a couple of Tactics spinoff games? As if!

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Originally Posted by CyrusArjuna

My take on RDM's lore (especially since it was strongly hinted at Fanfest) is that it's how the Ala Mhigans found a way to weave magic with their weapon in a way more fitting warlike culture. Or maybe they're Ala Mhigan mage killers?

I just hope we get a Joyeuse as a relic weapon.

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I rather hope Red Mages have nothing to do with Ala Mhigo lorewise to be honest. Its an iconic class that should be standing with Black Mage and White Mage, or at least have a more magical-national-origin like Sharlayan.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

I rather hope Red Mages have nothing to do with Ala Mhigo lorewise to be honest. Its an iconic class that should be standing with Black Mage and White Mage, or at least have a more magical-national-origin like Sharlayan.

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I'm gonna play devils advocate here

• First regarding the "more-magical-nation" thing. What we know of MNK lore implies that MNK is very much magical in nature, they just prefer to punch stuff instead of casting fireballs, but these punches are augmented by their chakra
• Secondly there is their architecture and iconography, both hind at more magical influences as well. The architecture is claimed to be based on that of the Renaissance era, the period of Enlightenment, and thir patron Rhalgr is symbolized by a Meteor, a Black Magic staple. I don;t think They are idiotic muscleheads, but they just apply magic differently, for that reason It might stand to reason another Melee focused form of magic, the Magic Knight (AKA Spellbalde, Mystic Knight, Rune Fencer and in XI Red Mage) could arise there.
• Lets compare their culture with that of Sharlayan. As it stands, they value their knowledge like Ul'dah values their coin, and from what we see form the AST quests, they seem to be content to stand atop their ivory towers, seeing themselves as above the "dumb commoners" of the other nations. For that reason they seem to hold those that want to help other people (especialy by using knowledge that they think are unworthy to even witness) such as the Circle of Knowing and Leveva, in contempt. A RDM trainer form there might be possible, but unlikely as they are liable to clamp down on dissenters after Leveva's escape is inevitably known (and likely already have after Louisoux left)
• The other Magical nations are remnants of an ancient war that likely saw to their that their cultures (and this their elements) never meet. Though with Nym being neutral in Mhach and Amdapor's conflict they are more likely to use all 6 elements on the same magic, but so far their only Job, SCH shows nothing of that

To be fair, it is only a single faction within Sharlayan which is particularly adamant about keeping Sharlayan knowledge and magic in Sharlayan hands; the Bibliothecs. Prior to that, however, Sharlayan seemed almost open-handed in sharing their knowledge with those who sought it. We have NPCs such as the Ishgardian Astrologian who studied in Sharlayan, and refugees like Yda who came to the colony and were taken in. The Sharlayans shared their knowledge of Astrology with the Ishgardians who just developed their own branch of it to predict the movements of the Dragons.

I'd happily see an opposing faction from Sharlayan making strides to share their knowledge with Eorzeans, especially if Levava's example is what drives them to take action rather than debate it in the forums.