I've done the msq and I just don't understand it really. I don't get what they were trying to accomplish or why their world was in danger, and if it was why hydaelyn didn't step in sooner to help - was that where all her power was going? Why didn't she notice? Sorry, I just find the story very thin at this point.
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10-04-2016, 04:40 PMAivi_loSpoilers - plus help I don't understand the warriors of darkness storyline
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10-04-2016, 04:40 PMAnonymoose
This will probably require a thorough explanation of the cosmology as a whole, so bear with me here.
It is implied that when formless chaos was given order and existence came into being, the aetherial sea gave rise to Light and Darkness, personified by Hydaelyn and Zodiark. The story we've been told - which may or may not be complete or accurate - is that the Darkness is by nature lustful of power and dominance. When Zodiark tipped the balance and took power for himself, Hydaelyn grew fearful and expelled him.
Dividing the original cosmology into planet and moon stressed the fabric of the universe so severely that it caused spatiotemporal rifts (cracks in spacetime) that resulted in reflections of the world fanning out in all redirections - thirteen "copies" in total. How alike these worlds are is unknown.
In order for Zodiark to be made whole - to be reborn - the cracks must be healed; the reflected worlds need to be rejoined to the original dimension (aka The Source). The Ascians labor to accomplish this by creating Calamities, weakening the barriers between worlds with great acts of chaos and destruction in such a way that the reflected world is destroyed; all Life there is killed (reverted to aether), and rejoined to the Source (empowering Zodiark). Hydaelyn protects against this by empowering Warriors of Light to thwart their plans.
The reflected worlds all have shards of Light and Darkness, but in varying amounts. The catch is that if either becomes too dominant before a Rejoining occurs, the aether is destroyed by the flood of Light or Dark and leaves only a void in its wake. This is where Elidibus' mission deviates from the Ascians in black; his mission is to direct the chaos and prevent the rocking boat from capsizing, so to speak. Zodiark cannot be reborn from void.
One of the reflected worlds - known as The First - was inherently imbalanced towards Light. When the Ascians threatened it, Hydaelyn's champions prevailed with relative ease. However, just as Zodiark cannot directly act but through His chosen (the Ascians) and His Emissary (Elidibus), Hydaelyn could do nothing as the Light flooded their world as a result.
Elidibus convinced the Warriors of Light of The First that the only way to save their world was to aid in the Rejoining before it was too late. Everyone would die, but their aether would be transferred to the Source to be born again as something new rather than spend eternity in a void as ... something else. They took the bait; knowing what they knew, how could they not? So they came to the Source to work towards causing a Calamity. They did this by dying, maintaining "immortal" form via the Echo, and traveling through the dimensional barriers via crystal the same way the Ascians do.
Elidibus likewise tried to get Urianger on board with restoring the status quo of the universe, expecting him to believe that the "shattered" universe was an aberration - something that shouldn't be. But when Urianger learned of the First and the Warriors of Darkness, he undertook his own plan to save their world another way (inspired by his interpretation of Louisoix's creed and the Warrior of Light's penchant for blazing unforeseen alternative paths).
Minfilia had sacrificed herself to Hydaelyn to act as Her voice; She was too weak to speak otherwise. Urianger manipulated the Warriors of Darkness to attempt direct conflict with the Warrior of Light, knowing that they would be so sorely tested that they would need to call upon the power of their Crystals - five aspects of them. Urianger called on the Warrior of Light to manifest the sixth aspect, thus completing the set and momentarily unleashing the power of Light and creating a direct conduit to Hydaelyn.
By offering this power back to Hydaelyn, Urianger gave Her the strength to create a force to oppose Elidibus - Her own Emissary. Though Hyadelyn was powerless to directly affect anything, Her Emissary could - something Elidibus had willfully withheld from the Warriors of Darkness. Their world will be saved by Hydaelyn's Emissary in a way that no Calamity is required and the Ascians there are still defeated (for now...?)
What does it all mean? Perhaps, in the end, Light and Dark will be forced into stalemate and Life will inherit the worlds - broken, but beautifully so. As the Warriors of Darkness said - fight not for either, but be true to yourself. Still, being the mother of Life, Hydaelyn seems to be the only force so far with any interest in our continued survival. Even though, for all intents and purposes, the First was called to action and abandoned to the flood of Light, She longed to save them (almost) as much as she feared the empowering of Zodiark.
But this whole tale has been told from only one point of view. There's room for further gray.
To be clear - there's a lot more to this. The Light and Dark have different themes relative to the aetherial sea. For example, the Keeper of Precepts (Zodiark) is strongly associated with the soul despite Hydaelyn's creation of Life. In fact, from His point of view, She erects walls around it. This all plays into the nature of the Echo, the Ascians, the Warriors of Light, etc. But those are whole other chapters of this story, so I tried to stick to the parts relevant to your question. -
10-04-2016, 07:09 PMFJerome
Hydaelyn didn't step in sooner because frankly she's kind of terrible at this whole Mother Goddess business; she screwed-up in the initial Sundering and it's just been a cavalcade of well-meaning but ditsy "woops!" moments ever since.
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10-04-2016, 09:42 PMAivi_loThank you so much for taking the time to explain the story in depth. I remembered bits and pieces of it, but I don't have the best memory and the story being broken up as it is doesn't help me!Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
I had to read your explanation 3 times, but think I understand it now. I had thought that the Warriors of darkness were just better than we were at stopping the bad guys and that's why their world was flooded with light. I wonder if hydaelyn is so weak because her light is effectively dammed away in the first world? And if she already had warriors of light /emissaries there, why she didn't act sooner (not that I'm not thankful minfilia is gone for a while!)
What are the different aspects of the crystals? Are there only six? I'm vaguely remembering collecting those in a previous instalment, but cannot for the life of me remember what happened with them in the end and why I still have one but the other scions don't. -
10-04-2016, 11:52 PMGriffey
We gathered the crystals through the 2.0 storyline, giving us the ability to use the blade of light against Ultima and Lahabrea amongst other things. Hydaelyns power starts waning and we seem to lose them by the time we meet Midgardsormr, then we spend the rest of the 3.0 storyline getting them back.
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10-05-2016, 12:01 AMCilia
The problem is ultimately that neither Hydaelyn nor Zodiark can directly intervene in the corporeal world, or at the very least that doing so places a great strain on them. Their will is imposed (for lack of a better term) by their agents, the Warrior(s) of Light and the Ascians, respectively, as well as their Emissaries (now Minfilia and Elidibus, respectively). The problem is the Shard Worlds are seemingly imbalanced toward Light or Darkness, and the Warriors of Darkness, having banished the Dark, inadvertently condemned their world (the First Shard) to a cessation of existence via a Flood of Light (because the First Shard is naturally tipped toward Light unlike our world, the Source). Thus they conspired with Elidibus to Rejoin the First Shard to the Source before everything was erased into, for lack of a better term, a "Light Void," leading to the Warriors of Darkness plot that played out over 3.1 - 3.4. They turned on Hydaelyn because following her (seeming) instructions was what damned the First Shard to begin with.
There are six elements: Water, Fire, Lightning, Earth, Ice, and Wind. We still have all six Crystals of Light - having them all is what marks us as Hydaelyn's chosen, the Warrior of Light. None of the Scions have one because they do not have the divine blessing we do; they chose that path entirely of their own volition. Krile has the Echo, but no Crystal(s) of Light. -
10-05-2016, 12:17 AMTinyRedLeafYup, that's correct. Although, it may have been the case that the forces of Darkness were relatively weaker in the First, and that was why the WoD were so successful there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aivi_lo
My impression throughout the 2.x series is that Hydaelyn had spent too much of her Light empowering her champions in the Source, and that was why she was weakening, to the point where she could no longer directly communicate with her Chosen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aivi_lo
The Light/Dark encapsulated in the 13 shards were separated from the Source at the time of the sundering. While they are, in a sense, in a different place, I'm not sure if it's accurate to say they're being "dammed" away, because it's not like that was part of a deliberate plan. As Anonymoose described, it was an unavoidable consequence of Hydaelyn expelling Zodiark from the Source.
It appears that Hydaelyn never created "emissaries" of the same nature as the Ascians — until now. She chose instead to directly empower "Warriors of Light", who, unlike Ascians, remain mortal and alive. Ascians, are, on the other hand, some kind of aetherial beings. They're immortal, but aren't alive the way the Warriors of Light are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aivi_lo
Having chosen to directly invest her power in the WoL, I assume Hydaelyn eventually passed the point of no return, where She no longer had the strength to create an emissary even if She wanted to. That was why She couldn't help the First, even though She heard the world's prayers.
Each of the crystals of light represent one of the six elements of fire, water, wind, lightning, ice and earth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aivi_lo
Hydaelyn told the WoL at the very beginning of 2.0 to go forth and seek the crystals. And by the WoL's deeds, the crystals would reveal themselves to him.
The WoL is the only one among all those gifted with the Echo to have successfully collected all six crystals, which makes him by far the strongest champion that Hydaelyn ever empowered.
For some reason, Midgardsormr chose to strip the WoL of the blessings of light in 2.55, as a way perhaps to test his worth. And the WoL spent the rest of 3.0 re-igniting the crystals, and regaining their full blessing.
That's what makes him by far the most fearsome opponent that mortals and primals alike will ever face. In Elidibus' own words, the WoL's power is approaching that of the gods, and he feared the WoL is danger of upsetting the balance too much towards Light. That was why Elidibus decided to deploy the WoD to counter the WoL, at the end of 3.0. -
10-05-2016, 12:19 AMAivi_lo
Thank you for your breakdown and replies :) it does make much more sense now. I guess it was lucky we had the last element on us at the time! I am curious as to why hydaelyn treats each world differently (no WoL for them!)
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10-05-2016, 12:28 AMTinyRedLeaf
What I'm left to wonder about, now that the cosmology of FFXIV has gone down such a completely different direction, is who or what exactly are the Twelve?
They aren't primals or eikons, and are apparently gods of a far greater magnitude of power, so much so that it would be absolutely life-threatening to summon even a mere fragment of them.
And, yet, throughout this time, the Twelve have been silent. Do they even exist, the way Hydaelyn or Zodiark do? Or are they just figments of prayers and faith, like any ordinary primal, except a lot stronger?
(Or, here's my very, very wild and totally unsupported hypothesis: Could the Twelve perhaps be the incarnations of the surviving 12 shards of the Source? Hmmm....) -
10-05-2016, 01:26 AMAmetrine
Well, during Dalamud's fall, after Bahamut broke out and started whecking everything, Louisoix and the Circle of Knowing attempt to summon the Twelve to reseal Bahamut, but they appear only in symbol form and are almost immediately shattered.
There was a quest at the end of 1.0 that had players go on a pilgrimage to to all the spots in the world with the Twelve's symbols and pray to them. It clearly wasn't enough.
I think they are just local dieties that have just persisted through time. -
10-05-2016, 01:52 AMAlleoWell theoretically we have all six elemental crystals so we always could have summoned the one that was still missing. I am not sure if its correct but each WoL probably will take away some of her power. The crystals seems to help us against the Ascians but they have her aether in it. If we are able to give back her power by giving her our crystals we are probably also taking away her power if we get a crystal. We dont even know if the other worlds had no WoL. Maybe these WoL just lost to the Ascians? We are also her last trump card, so maybe she just cant "create" more WoL without using the last bit of her power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aivi_lo
Its also the question if everyone that is choosen as a WoL, really goes along the path. She never truly forced us to help her so maybe some choose not do to something? -
10-05-2016, 02:28 AMAnonymoose
I think TinyRedLeaf addressed the questions I would have replied to quite well, already, but...
It's hard to say for sure how much of Her weakness can be attributed to bits of the Light being on other worlds and how much is just that seven straight Calamities (and seven sets of Warriors of Light that can harness Her strength) have really taken their toll. Hell, even empowering us, casting out Lahabrea, and the Ultima shields cost Her pretty dearly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aivi_lo
As far as we know, Minfilia is the only Emissary - The First may have been the only time that Ascian machination we defeated so hard that a gap was placed between a flood of Light and a Rejoining. The Warriors of Light may have just done everything they could have in the past and kept ultimately losing ground; there might not have been a flood of Light to stop. But this is all speculation - it could all be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aivi_lo
Technically ... There's Lighting / Fire / Earth / Ice / Water / Wind. But there are also crystals of Darkness, and since 1.0 there have been manifestations of imbalanced aspects that tip towards two adjacent elements, even three when it's the "Astral" trio (Wind / Lighting \ Fire) or the "Umbral" trio (Water \ Ice / Earth). The entire Chrysalis, for example, is made of Dark Crystal - from the door to the platforms to the statue. That, combined with the fact that it looks like the inside of the Burning Heart, has me suspicious that the interdimensional rift is actually within the moon - perhaps within the "Fathercrystal" itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aivi_lo
You know me; I hold logic and speculation pretty dear until we get to issues of "keeping the faith". I'll support doubt, I'll back interpretations to the contrary, but it just seems like a more powerful adventure if you hold fast to hope. Most tangible evidence so far points to the Twelve being seeds of faith that descend from legends of the Archons and the Warriors of Light, every era reinforced and strengthened when history repeats itself. The Circle of Knowing were twelve figures bringing accurate warnings of the future and even today the commonfolk will be quick to say, "THE ANGELS HAVE RETURNED TO US!"Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
Still ... I keep the faith that the Twelve are something. My current baseless headcanon is that they existed in an unwritten era of Prehistory between the division of the Source and the first Rejoining; that they were extremely powerful forms of Life that existed early on as a means to lead and guide, but ultimately it didn't work out. But who knows. Maybe they were all dragons, eh!?
Correct. Louisoix tried to tap into a summoning ritual to essentially summon primal versions of the Twelve and direct their strength towards sending Dalamud back into the heavens before ultimately killing himself to prevent their corporeal manifestation (Bahamut broke the spell before it got that far). From the symbols in the sky to the literal recreation of Dalamud around Bahamut, it's strongly suggested that these are just manifestations of faith and aether.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ametrine
What the Twelve are otherwise - if anything - is still a great mystery. -
10-05-2016, 08:47 AMSuzakuCMXIt's important to note that despite the Circle of Knowing being so against primals that they tried to summon the deities in a manner similar to primals. Urianger was the one in 1.0 who came and directed players to the deities' symbols around Eorzea and to pray at them in order to fill them with aether.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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10-05-2016, 10:18 AMViaeus
Thank you for all the clarifications in this thread, great explanations.
I have one question. We know now that the Ascians try to cause calamities in the reflection worlds to rejoin them with the Source. Our world already is the Source, so why do the Ascians try to create calamities in our world? Does our world need to be rejoined with itself? -
10-05-2016, 10:48 AMCilia
Knowing what we now know, it sounds to me like the Ascians need to make a massive aetherial disturbance (i.e. calamitous event) in order to initiate a Rejoining. This is the task of the Ascians operating on the Source; the others are supposed to keep a Reflection balanced until such a time as it is Rejoined.
Conjecture, though. We don't know the whole story. -
10-05-2016, 11:02 AMNaria
The Calamites that we know any detail about have involved two things 1) Massive war(s) 2) the consumption of a great deal of aether either through magic (White and Black/Void for the Sixth Umbral Calamity) or Primal summoning (the Third and Seventh Calamities) as a result of those wars. Since the WoD say that the aether of the First Shard would be returned to the Source if a rejoining occurred, presumably one of the components of a rejoinging is to create a massive deficit of aether on the Source. We don't know what the necessary components for a rejoining on a Shard world are, besides that they need to be in relative balance. As Cilia said it could very well be that Calamities don't happen on the Shards, only the Source.
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10-05-2016, 11:41 AMCilia
So by creating a massive aetherial disturbance or deficit on the Source, the barriers between it and a Reflection are ovecome by the Source's need to fill that deficit... and a Reflection is Rejoined to compensate...
... yeah, sounds logical. -
10-05-2016, 12:47 PMNaria
It is possible that there is some other component to it--that on the Shard targeted to be rejoined the Ascians cause some kind of planetary catastrophe that would result in a great deal of death in short period of time (not unlike the Source's Calamities but without the encouragement of aetherial consumption/drain) in order to "free up" aether and insure that specific shard is rejoined and not another, but that is pure speculation on my part. As I've said elsewhere, with what we know at the moment I doubt that Calamities happen on all remaining shards whenever there is one on the Source (It seems like it would create a lot of extra work for the Ascians). I might be accrediting them with too much organizational skill. We know so little about the other shards I could easily be completely wrong.
But yeah unless I've missed something the MSQ didn't say either way if Calamities happen on the Shards, only that the Ascians are also active on the Shards to maintain balance. On a world rich in Light like the First that would mean promoting Dark (whatever that would entail). On the Source however the Ascians seem mainly occupied with deliberately causing an aether drain on the planet/Hydaelyn. The fact that millennia pass between Umbral Calamities makes me think there is something more to it then just causing a massive aether drain on the Source. -
10-05-2016, 02:27 PMCilia
Ehh... I was just saying that sounds like the most logical answer to the how and why of the Ascians' MO, for now.
Don't think a length of time between Rejoinings is necessary; the Ascians have done nothing but try and force another one and it's only been 5 years since the last... but I digress. -
10-05-2016, 02:42 PMAnonymoosePersonally, I assume it's another correlation/causation thing. Look at what usually happens after a Calamity - a huge amount of people die, the land becomes uninhabitable, and the survivors scatter to the wind with what pitiful knowledge and technology they can steward through the strife. Who is going to cause any noteworthy measure of chaos? And with what? The delay between previous calamities was likely allow enough people to come together with enough resources and enough motivations to actually get the chaos ball rolling again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
Thanks to Louisoix we still have plenty of civilizations, technologies, and peoples ready to rise up and [insert cause here].
No delay necessary. -
10-05-2016, 03:05 PMRoclSTEP BACK THE BOOM'S ABOUT TA PUT YOU IN AQuote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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10-05-2016, 03:11 PMNariaThat is the simplest explanation. Like I said I'm probably giving the Ascians way too much credit, or perhaps over simplifying things. My first instinct is to look at the 1500 years of the Sixth Astral and be like "What were you people doing the entire time? Taking a long coffee break?" :confused: Thus I event reasons for why they didn't try to start a calamity as soon as civilization got its feet back under it. Eh, for all I know the Sil'dah/Ul'dah zombie not-really-an-apocalypse could have been an attempt to start a calamity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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10-05-2016, 03:46 PMTinyRedLeaf
This is as yet a half-formed idea, so it's going to be challenging to put it accurately into words. Please bear with me.
First of all, Naria and Cilia raised a very plausible theory that the Ascians trigger Calamities to drain massive amounts of aether from the Source, and force it to lower or break through the aetherial barriers, and re-absorb the shard worlds, to compensate for the loss.
And now, we also know that it's very important for a balance of light and darkness to exist in the shard worlds, so that the optimal amount of aether is returned to the Source.
We don't know how the Ascians on the shard worlds are achieving this, but we do know that, for whatever reason, there are agents of light in at least one of the shard worlds, who are actively fighting against the darkness, and even winning against it overwhelmingly.
Now, if the Ascian goal is to effect a returning of aether from the shard worlds, I wonder how this is different from what the Source is currently doing, with regard to absorbing the excess light from the First. Isn't this also a rejoining of sorts?
I mean, given the Ascians' association with darkness, my assumption until now was that returning Zodiark to the Source would flood the world with darkness. Or, at the very least, give Him an upper hand over Hydaelyn.
It now seems that this wasn't the actual goal. It seems that aether with an optimal balance in polarities is absolutely essential for a successful Rejoining.
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Which brings me back to what the great bearded one, Ramuh, once told the WoL, back in 2.3:
Thy conflicts have brought naught but anguish and misery unto the forest. All blame doth lie with the darkness that resideth in the breast of man. In the beginning, no such duality existed. Were light and dark given form when man was born? It would explain much. Not least why strife and sorrow follow ever in thy wake.
And the Word of the Mother said, in 3.2:
Before there was life, in the depths of the aetherial sea, Light and Dark did once dwell as one. But the Darkness coveted power, and the balance was broken. Thus was I forced to banish Him unto the distant heavens, to forever remain apart.
Based on the quotes above, it would seem that it was the (I'm assuming spontaneous) creation of mortal life that destabilised Light and Darkness. And it may be the case that, "before there was life", Hydaelyn and Zodiark did not actually exist. At least, not as distinct entities, but rather as a merged entity with an entirely different nature (and quite possibly, an entirely different name).
This could explain Zodiark's absolute contempt for mortal life. As far as He's concerned, it was mortal desire that led to the sundering. To Him, all mortal life is an ugly aberration (hence Ramuh's musing), and that's why He couldn't care less if all mortals are wiped out in the process of rejoining the worlds.
This would also explain why Hydaelyn did not create aetherial emissaries of Her own until now. To do so would have undermined Her own goal of protecting the embodiment of Light: mortal life. And it may explain why She favours mortal champions over aetherial agents. It's simply in Her nature to do so.
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I've lost track of the actual quotes, but I remember a number of references to Order and Chaos, I believe in obscure parts of the MSQ. Is it possible then that, before there was Light and Darkness, the only duality that existed was that between Order and Chaos? Is this possibly the original nature of the merged entity that was Hydaelyn and Zodiark as One? (This hypothesis depends on whether Hydaelyn has ever been explicitly associated with Order; I don't recall so.)
That's my speculation for now. It would be interesting if that were true, because it harkens back to the alignment system first popularised by Dungeons & Dragons, the grand-daddy of all role-playing games: Law <--> Chaos; Good <--> Evil.
Order and chaos, in this conception, is not synonymous with good and evil, respectively. In fact, too much Order could lead to evil (eg, tyranny, or Lawful Evil), while Chaos could also be a force for good (eg, individual freedom, or Chaotic Good).
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By the by, I think it would be great to have a new thread that consolidates the various discussions on FFXIV's cosmology, since from what I can tell, this thread about the necessity of "neutrality" also touches on the nature of light and darkness in Hydaelyn and beyond. (That thread, incidentally, was the inspiration for most of my musings above.)
There's also the related discussion on the nature of the so-called Void, which makes reference to the Ascians' goal of preventing another world from falling completely to either polarity. -
10-05-2016, 03:57 PMCilia
That's actually my line of thinking: it's not so much that a length of time (millennia) have to pass between Rejoinings, but there just isn't enough chaos to cause enough of a deficiency to overcome the dimensional barrier that separates a Reflection from the Source.
Normally it does take that long because civilization has to rebuild, but this time that's not the case.
Probably overthinking this. Have bad tendency to do that. -
10-05-2016, 04:05 PMAnonymooseI think this would be at odds with the Gerun Oracles, which implies that life was created after the division (out of fear of Zodiark).Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
But we've been lied to about the order of events before. Remember that time the Ishgardians left out two hundred years and glued their arrival in Coerthas immediately to the slaying of Thordan? -
10-05-2016, 04:18 PMTinyRedLeaf
Well, maybe Louisoix was simply mistaken?
The essential conundrum is this: Why would Zodiark, the avatar of Darkness, care so much about maintaining a balance of Light and Dark in the shard words? What would a successful rejoining of perfectly balanced worlds result in, other than a perfect balance of power between Him and Hydaelyn?
If the Word and Louisoix were to be believed, then it ought to be the case that Zodiark would seek the upper hand, after the Rejoining. After all, it was allegedly because Zodiark desired power that Hydaelyn forced the sundering. Would a covetous entity be content with being a mere equal to His counterpart? -
10-05-2016, 04:33 PMCilia
It's pretty simple, actually: a proper balance produces the greatest amount of raw aether when a Reflection is Rejoined, and the Ascians are going for an optimal amount. The Void probably could be Rejoined, but aside from potentially unleashing massive devastation on the Source the balance is not right to get a good return. It would be very low, if there was a gain at all, and the Ascians are seeking to resurrect or revive Zodiark. They'll try and get an optimal amount of aether out of every Reflection; Elidibus was not wrong when he said that the events of 3.4 can be played to the Ascians' advantage. The First Shard was originally going to be erased in a Flood of Light; now that Minfilia is there working to restore the proper balance, a Rejoining can occur that gives a better return.
If X amount of raw aether is spent trying to Rejoin a Reflection and you get X- aether in return (from, say, a Void), it isn't beneficial to the Ascians' goals. That's the basic principle behind why they want to keep Reflections from becoming Voids like the Thirteenth.
Hypothetically. Maybe theoretically.
EDIT
The essential paradox that arises from this hypothesis is "but Hydaelyn is always bleeding aether, isn't she? A Rejoining should be beneficial to her, right?" Well... yes, but it can be resolved with the information we have.
Now... this is saying verbatim that Zodiark's corporeal body is the moon, and it's coming from the Goddess so there's very, very little room for interpretation. As Hydaelyn is at once the Goddess, the Mothercrystal, and the planet... it would stand to reason that Zodiark is at once the Dead God, the Dark Crystal seen in 2.0's ending, and the moon. Their crystalline forms only exist on in the Aetherial Sea as far as we know - representations of their physical celestial bodies. All the Ascians would need to do is direct the flow of aether from a Rejoining to Zodiark... not hard with Hydaelyn being abused as she is... and boom, Zodiark gets more powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Word of the Mother
(His "dead" status also explains why the moon is a barren, lifeless rock. Hypothetically it could support life like Hydaelyn, but without aether to create any sort of atmosphere or lifestream... but I digress.)
Hypothetically. Or maybe theoretically.
Somebody stop me if I've jumped on the crazy train. -
10-05-2016, 04:34 PMAnonymooseLouisoix was just quoting the Gerun Oracles, no? The actual tome seems to predate him considerably.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
If I'm reading it correctly, an imbalance in the shard worlds leads to the aether being out-and-out destroyed, whereas keeping equilibrium until the Ardor ensures that the aether will be transferred (rejoined) rather than lost. Recall that Elidibus brushed off being outwitted and allowing Hydaelyn to both regain some strength and create an emissary by pointing out that a whole reflection's worth of aether would not be lost to void, and that this would eventually benefit Zodiark.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
My question is ... why does the Ardor empower Zodiark now and leave Hydaelyn weak now? Was Elidibus lying to the Warriors of Darkness when he claimed that this aether returns to the Lifestream? Or are Hydaelyn and the Lifestream not as linked as we thought?
I feel like it's a simple thing but that a previous assumption is blocking my view...
Or I'm just wrong, lol.
But you've reminded me! I have a new poem to translate, don't I...
Nevermind - poem only exists in English, lol. -
10-05-2016, 06:05 PMTheodricHeh. This made me laugh a lot more than it should have - and I strongly believe that you're onto something there. I think it applies to the Warrior of Light and Scions as well - albeit to a lesser extent - given their lack of regard to the consequences of their actions. Especially in regards to bringing about sweeping cultural and political changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by FJerome
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10-05-2016, 06:12 PMBelhiUnfortunately it happens to kill everyone living on that reflection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
I think one thing to keep in mind when considering Hydaelyn's actions is this whole reflection world thing probably wasn't a well planned out or carefully implemented process. If her side of things are true, it was a desperate measure she took to keep Zodiark from taking over. Because of that her control and influence over the whole setup is likely far from optimal. -
10-05-2016, 08:54 PMTinyRedLeafIndeed. Something is off here, but I can't quite put a finger on it. It just seems odd that an entity that's actively working towards undermining Light on the one hand is also working hard, on the other hand, to maintain a delicate balance of Light and Dark. Thematically, it doesn't gel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
It's also somewhat difficult, I feel, to wrap my head around the idea that a balance of polarities somehow produces the greatest amount of raw aether. I mean, intuitively, one would imagine full Light to be maximum positivity, while full Dark gives you maximum negativity. Light and Dark in perfect balance gives you... er... net zero?
Ah well, I suppose I am over-thinking this as well. Maybe it'll be easier to recall how over-aspected aether in Eorzea leads to highly unstable crystals that aren't just dangerous to life, but also practically useless.
So, maybe what matters it isn't the amount of raw aether per se, but rather the maximum amount of usable aether that Zodiark can get from a Rejoining.
In any case, I'll put my speculation to rest for now. But I still strongly suspect that whatever comes out of a full Rejoining wouldn't be a full-blown Zodiark, but a return to an original state that's something else altogether. Not a Zodiark-Hydaelyn hybrid, but another completely different concept that transcends Light and Dark, and in which mortal life has no place. -
10-05-2016, 09:32 PMBelhi
Does the Ardor weaken Hydaelyn? Or is that what all the primals are for? The Ardor could simply be to return Zodiark. Ascians have used primals a lot and we know their summoning weakens her.
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10-05-2016, 09:38 PMmyahele
It makes sense why there are Umbral eras: it's when the source world reabsorbs a shard world into itself in order to recover. Though it does seem like the Rejoining between the Source and Shard world is not something that'll happen automatically since it's the Asciens that do it.
So since the Rejoining for the 6th Umbral Era has not yet occurred, does that mean that we're still in the 6th Umbral era? Or is Hydaelyn recovering without the aid of absorbing the shard worlds for the 1st time? -
10-05-2016, 10:03 PMAivi_lo
Are we the source world or a reflection? Are the reflections destroyed upon absorption by the source world? I've been reading through all the posts and this info and insights are great :)
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10-05-2016, 10:46 PMKalleraIt seems this world is the source world, but this has me thinking, if we are the source world, is the 7th umbral era then a reflection and demonstration into how the rejoining smooshes the events of the destroyed world into the history of the source? As in, though we were on the source world where historically bahamut had a destructive fling and was stopped, but the reflection's history was bahamut destroying everything?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aivi_lo
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10-06-2016, 12:43 AMCilia
Just going to compile the hypothesis (maybe theory) and try to answer any other questions here...
The Ardor
-A calamitous event on the Source that Rejoins a Reflection to it. By creating a massive aetheric disturbance or deficit on the Source, the dimensional barriers separating a Reflection from the Source are broken down, converting that Reflection into raw aether intended to fill the deficit and repair the aetheric flow. This aetheric flow is redirected to Zodiark, while Hydaelyn needs time to recuperate and civilization needs time to rebuild, creating the cycle of Astral and Umbral Eras. (Most recent Umbral Era very short because the disturbance was undone by Louisoix returning the aether from the summoning of the Twelve to the land, and civilization survived to continue creating the chaotic conditions that support Ardor.)
Balance
-Needs to be maintained on Reflections or they will be drowned in a Flood of Light or Flood of Dark. Neither is beneficial to the Ascians, as an imbalance does not produce an optimal amount of aether. There may also be the matter of a Reflection being superimposed on the Source during a Rejoining in the style of Terra and Gaia in IX, and a Void superimposing itself on the Source would make for less than ideal circumstances to initiate another Rejoining (possibly ever). Light and Dark in a certain balance produces the greatest amount of raw aether upon a Rejoining, which is then directed to Zodiark.
Primals
-Thoughtforms given physical manifestations by aether. Exist solely to drain Hydaelyn of aether, thus weakening her and making it ever more difficult to prevent further Rejoinings. Primals warp the flow of and devour aether, preventing it from being returned to the land, which slowly kills Hydaelyn and weakens her until then. This makes it much easier for the Ascians to initiate Rejoinings.
Zodiark and Hydaelyn
-God and Goddess of Dark and Light, respectively. Though associated with those elements, the elements themselves are not inherently good or evil. Heavensward has beat into our heads that it doesn't matter whether it's Light or Dark, it's how you use it that's important. Dark Knights use the power of darkness, but are still good people at heart. The Knights of the Round used the power of light, but intended to put the world under their heel. The Warriors of Darkness vanquished all the Ascians on the First Shard, only to have it start getting erased in a Flood of Light. The Thirteenth Reflection was drowned by Darkness, but that isn't beneficial to the Ascians' goals.
It's not so much that "Light and order are good because they are Hydaelyn's domain" or that "Darkness and chaos are bad because they are Zodiark's domain," but that "Hydaelyn is a benevolent goddess whose domain happens to be Light and Order" and "Zodiark is a covetous god whose domain happens to be Darkness and Chaos." (This would explain the Ascians' association with the Void despite it being useless for the purposes of a Rejoining.) Hypothetically one could reverse the roles with Zodiark as the benevolent Fathercrystal whose domain is still Darkness and Chaos and Hydaelyn as a tyrannical, banished goddess whose domain is still Light and Order... but I digress.
... well, that's the best hypothesis I can hash out with what information we currently have. I'm going to jump off the crazy train and wait for it to plow into my house of cards when we get another piece of information that contradicts it, lol. (And Zodiark is totes the moon! I called it a long time ago!) -
10-06-2016, 05:44 AMAnonymooseQuote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
I actually don't yet understand where the [Optimal Amount of Aether] hypothesis comes from. Wasn't Elidibus speaking in pretty black-and-white, all-or-nothing terms? That the aether is entirely lost if a flood of Light or Darkness creates a void, and a void is entirely useless to Zodiark? Does perfect equilibrium matter? Or just enough to ensure that the boat isn't in danger of capsizing. What if you maintain enough equilibrium so that the boat (world) is leaning pretty far, but no water is coming in (no flood is annihilating the aether)? I don't recall anything that points to that being "sub-optimal". Could you help me out?Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
To be over-technical, I suppose it depends on whether the [Calamity / Ardor / Rejoining] are different events happening in rapid succession or just all names for the same event. The Calamity (chaotic confluence on the Source) definitely weakens Hydaelyn. The Ardor / Rejoining (fusion of a shard world) definitely empowers Zodiark. Assuming there's a pedantic difference between even these two events - are they correlated or does one cause the other? I'm less than confident in assuming, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belhi
What do you mean? The Great Flood looked like a Calamity and Rejoining both, no? Or do you mean the 7th, where Louisoix half-stopped the events? Hydaelyn says that "seven times has the Dark grown stronger", which I take to be seven successful Rejoinings for seven Calamities, the last just didn't destroy as much life on the Source. The plights of the First and the Thirteenth seem to be separate from this... I think? Urianger confirms that six worlds remain, but does the Thirteenth count as a Calamity-lost that didn't get Rejoined, or as a reflection whose space technically still exists but is now void? I suspected the latter but there is room for doubt, I suppose.Quote:
Originally Posted by myahele
We're definitely on the Source now, according to Hydaelyn, Elidibus, and the Warriors of Darkness. There are some darksteelfoil hat (fun-but-unproven fringe) theories that Version 1.0 took place on a Reflection, but that's about it. The worlds would have to be remarkably similar for that to be true, and the Warriors of Light would have had to travel between worlds without dying and without crystals via Louisoix's spell. It needs the narrative to jump it over a lot of hurdles to be true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aivi_lo
Granted, it could be that the same thing happened there and the Rejoining is more about timeline compression than anything - that the works are nigh identical and progress relatively the same until singled out for their Calamities and Rejoinings, but we're still workin' out on the fringe there.
The idea that a Calamity creates an aetherial vacuum resulting in a Rejoining is definitely something I'd file in the Possible Theories box. I'm still struggling to archive properly, though, so I'm going to keep my hand out of the prediction jar as much as possible for now and just take the Powers that Be at their word that a Calamity "blows out the barrier" between the Source and a Reflection. I'm also quite curious if and/or how the Ascians plan which shard will be absorbed. Perhaps that's why the relic scenario pointed out that Calamities threatened other areas of the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
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10-06-2016, 06:22 AMCilia
Muh... muh brain was farting a bit last night. Not working for a short while and getting depressed about the consequences of such will do that.
According to the Word of the Mother, Zodiark was split into a baker's dozen Shards that are scattered across the Reflections of the Source. Thus a Rejoining would not convert a Reflection to aether Zodiark can be absorbed, but simply erase that Reflection (or convert it to aether that is absorbed by Hydaelyn / Zodiark, or superimpose it on the Source... or something) in the process of restoring the Shard to Zodiark. A Void of either type is not beneficial to this plan; a Dark Void would consume the Shard itself and make it difficult if not impossible to salvage, while a Light Void could eventually erode and erase the Shard itself. (Therefore sending Minfilia to halt the Flood of Light in the First Reflection is beneficial to the Ascians' plans.)
A Rejoining breaks down the dimensional barriers separating the Source and a Reflection, thus giving Zodiark a Shard of his power / self back. Get all thirteen (somehow) and he will be reborn. Rejoinings in mortal terms are massive aetheric disturbances, "Calamities" for lack of a better term.
Okay, really stopping this time before I turn into this guy.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...9926&type=card
He's got a mouth growing out of his ear. Don't wanna end up like that. -
10-06-2016, 09:48 AMmyahele
I am abit confused now.
Elidibus says that people have survived the Rejoining 7 times now. Is he referring to the people from the Source world? Or the souls of the people in the destroyed world that have Rejoined
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10-06-2016, 10:30 AMAnonymooseThis is one of the lines that I've studied backwards and forwards trying to make sense of it. Until this point in the story, the Ascians had been using their standard MO of teaching mortals the art of summoning and hoping that it would inspire greater wars - whether it be primal vs. primal, or summoners vs. empires, or whatever conflict they could escalate (they could adjust as time went on, as they did with Allag).Quote:
Originally Posted by myahele
Igeyorhm, Nabriales, Emmerololth, and Altima are discussing how all five beast tribe primals have fallen, and the last one accepted the Warrior of Light after being defeated. The context is the implication that they haven't been taking Elidibus as seriously has they should have when he claimed that mankind's potential was limitless and they should be keeping a much closer eye on the chosen.
Elidibus claims that this is Hydaelyn's doing, and that souls are degrading and becoming more spiritual. In Japanese he uses the phrase 人ならざる者, which I have no idea how to translate. Something more than human? Something not entirely human? I'm not sure. Anyway - he sees this as the final key. Those with the Echo have to be fully awakened to it's potential to forge the final key in their plan. It may be as simple as trying to understand and manipulate those with Echo, it may be as complex as that the creation of mortals was part of what keeps Zodiark's rebirth in check (a la Promathia; recall: "Come mortals! Render up your souls that Lord Zodiark might be reborn!").
Now, he also speaks of leading mortals towards a "New God". At the time it felt obvious that this was Shiva - a manufactured fusion of a mortal raised to the position of saint and a single Echo user's interpretation of Halone. But that might not be the whole of it at all. It's easy to forget (being two unresolved lines in a patch full of conclusions), but the Warriors of Darkness had a secondary mission.
They were to defeat the beastmen gods so utterly, to humble them so completely, that they would be abandoned by their patrons in favor of something more powerful. They used the same phrase: the "New God". Remember, Urianger himself moved them off of this path and convinced them to make a direct attack on the Warrior of Light. He even launched into the suggestion after pointing out that Titan was so weak and unstable when summoned that it will to little to convince the Kobolds to think beyond the Great Father.
All of the Ascian plans are tributaries to the same great river, so to speak. This is Zodiark's will.