Proposal for 3.4 BiS for War.

Hi there!
Regarding the new equipments in the 3.4 patch, I tried to make a new BiS for the War.
It is not that simple to make BiS at the moment since we don't know the acc caps yet. Nevertheless, I made a rough estimation regarding the previous caps:
Acc cap A4S: 647
Acc cap A8S: 705
Acc cap A12S? it seems the SSS dummies have the same acc requirements as the real fights, and people tried, se here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._accuracy_cap/

Seems the requirements are just a bit more than for A8S! 715 would be enough actually!

How did I made this build...
We want to:
- reach the acc cap, in order to hit 100% times.
- maximize the ilvl of the weapon, since WD is really important
- reach an acceptable number of SkS in order to get 9 GCD under Berserk. Note that this is really latency dependent. If you live close to the servers and have an amazing ping, ~500 is actually sufficient...
- maximize main stats (Str, Vit)
- maximize the secondary stats with crit>det~sks>>>par. We will try to minimize Parry, which is a pure dps loss for the moment. I really wish a revamp of this stat. Looking forward 4.0... I used the stat weight by Dervy for that (here: https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/stat-weights/ )

Regarding all these parameters, I obtained the following build (no dps right side):

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/VRCR

With these stats for an Highander:
ilvl: 270. Str:1223. Acc: 750. Crit: 1020. Det: 623. SkS: 699. Vit:1805 (so 35783 HP). Par: 413.

If we are OK to use dps right sides (so losing vit):

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/VRDX

With these stats for an Highander:
ilvl: 270. Str:1286. Acc: 750. Crit: 1037. Det: 673. SkS: 699. Vit:1732 (so 34287 HP). Par: 354.
It removes the token ring (which has parry) and replaced it with the alex str ring. Slightly better in term of dps, but we lose 73 vit points.

Did you find a better one?

Fayth

edit: changed regarding news about acc cap via SSS.

ACC cap for A12S is like 710~720 according to the A12S SSS dummy.

Cap for A8S was 699 frontal, and from what we've heard A12S is around 710-720 as spooky mentioned. Swap the savage necklace for the tomestone one to end up with 750 accu (that's the most straightforward potential BiS obtained by avoiding parry gears). You also don't have str v materias on some of your accessories in the links you posted.

Using the old stat weights from 3.2 I haven't figured a way to use the savage chest piece to get higher total weight since we have to make up for that huge accuracy loss, and from a quick glance it seems like the crafted accessories don't have better weights than the i270 ones unless you overmeld with materia v.

Aleph: thanks. I found a link on Reddit,a nd yes, seems the A12S cap is around 715. So I updated the BiS. Sorry, wrong C/P, I fixed the STR mats on right side.
Nevertheless:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Using the old stat weights from 3.2 I haven't figured a way to use the savage chest piece to get higher total weight since we have to make up for that huge accuracy loss

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I disagree with that. Acc cap is so low you don't need the acc from the body. It gives par, which is not that good, but otherwise we are over capped in acc (my previous build was at 800ish). With some mat, we can reach 715 easily (see my build) without losing crit. If you found a better total weight, please let me know!

If you click on the BiS solver, you can turn on stat weights.

The thing you are not understanding is that parry on your chest piece is a net loss in useful secondaries. It doesn't really matter what gear you use. You have the same max primary / secondary stat budgeting. Parry wastes a portion of that budget. If you use the tomestone chest-piece instead, you can use the ACC from the chest slot to drop ACC from other gear in favor of crit / det / ss.

As for there being a better set-up, almost definitely, but we're going to need to see how hard the content hits first. In Midas, you could afford to wear a piece or two of Slaying right side and some Slaying pieces have better DPS stat weighting.

If we use the token body, we cannot really go below 750 acc.
In that case, you get this build:

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/VRCR

With these stats for an Highander:
ilvl: 270. Str:1223. Acc: 750. Crit: 1020. Det: 623. SkS: 699. Vit:1805 (so 35783 HP). Par: 413.

The stats difference is: +34 (useless) acc, -147 crit, +51 det, +157 sks, -90 par.
The weight difference is (using Dervy's data): ~+40.
That's better, thats right. I don't really like the high SkS, the crit loss and the useless acc, but right, it is possible! I update (again).
Thanks! :)


edit @ Brian. I didnt know the auto BiS solver stuff, was doing by hand... Well, thanks! :D
I tried with no str right side (pure vit), and got the build I posted as a BiS.
Then I tried again allowing the str right side, and got this build:

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/VRDX

With these stats for an Highander:
ilvl: 270. Str:1286. Acc: 750. Crit: 1037. Det: 673. SkS: 699. Vit:1732 (so 34287 HP). Par: 354.
It removes the token ring (which has parry) and replaced it with the alex str ring. Slightly better in term of dps, but we lose 73 vit points.

Full augmented savage set is better than full augmented script set? Assuming I don't bother mixing up pieces...

My concern is the lack of determination may directly effect my ability to hold aggro as a Paladin/Dark Knight.

700ish sks is not "too high" especially on a warrior which has no TP issues. With arrow card or fey wind that allows you to use fracture before double fell cleave in certain openers to let it get buffed by IR and/or potion (if your sks is too low, using butcher's block combo, fracture and 2x fell cleaves means losing eye debuff before you reapply it, which is a 27 potency loss excluding buffs).

The problem with using savage chest is that the extra accu on the scrip chest is not completely useless (unlike the case in 3.2 where lore belt was better than midas belt since the accu is completely useless). Out of the 129 accu only around 30 is over the cap, which means that you have to make up for that nearly 100 accu from somewhere else, and in this case due to the limited options, it doesn't seem to be possible to do that while obtaining higher total stat weights. It's a tradeoff of 30 useless accu against 90 useless parry.

With A12S already down in much much lower gear, I find it unlikely that the additional 1496 HP you'd get from the Shire Ring would ever be critical enough to make or break a fight for even midcore groups. As such, I'll be aiming for the Alexandrian Ring of Slaying.

Indeed should be using alex str ring.
For neck, would a good melded crafted vit neck be better? It has 54 crit - can meld 36 - 48 skill speed extra.

Regarding savage chest vs tomestone chest, i would say savage chest melded with acc for lower turns, tomestone chest for higher turns.

If the accu cap is indeed 699 just like a8s, then depending on how much hp you'd like to have you can take the slaying savage ring and slaying tome earring and just meld 1x accu v materia somewhere (probably head since it seems to be the only place where you meld anything other than str/vit/crit). Something like this http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/VVDJ.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Indeed should be using alex str ring.
For neck, would a good melded crafted vit neck be better? It has 54 crit - can meld 36 - 48 skill speed extra.

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Based on the old stat weights for war, nope it still loses to the tomestone necklace.

The real question on the Slaying/Fending accessories: How much HP will be enough for tanks to still be able to withstand tank busters in DPS stance at any point? While a9s-a11s are pretty mild, A12S in particular has Punishing Heat that currently requires tank stance and big CDs to survive. The tank adds also does Smash which hits for quite a bit. The WAR in particular currently has to save a lot of CDs when he goes in to tank and hit the add alone, if you have seen the clear vids.

So this comes back to IF 35k++ HP at i270s is able to let tanks do more damage via DPS stances.

Also to note that it makes your healers' job easier to have more HP as a tank especially if they are also busy doing DPS to push for that group DPS.

Remember, right now you are comparing to a very small damage up for that kind of HP which can potentially (to be tested when we all reach i270s) contribute more as a team's effort rather than your own 420blazemyparse.

Haven't seen the kill vids of a12s since I'm still at a10s but I wouldn't wear slaying the first time I step in there lol. I'll consider slaying only after clearing the fight, and even then it's just as you said, depends on how much hp I'd want to have.

I propose this set for bis.
It's only about 2.5 stat weight lower than the full fending one in the OP (http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/VRCR) AND it uses the Alex chest, BUT.. that 2.5 weight is EASILY made up for when you notice my build still has 9 empty melds on left side. After parsing on a12s SSS and getting 0 misses for 2501 attacks @699 acc, I'd have to insist that useless parry > useless accuracy, so I swapped the chest from Scripture to Savage.
Final stats:
700 acc(using priestly omelette) 1138 crit, 570 Det, and 517 SkS.
Use the final 9 melds however you like at this point to get SkS where you like it, then boost Crit/det with the leftovers. Even going full SkS with those last melds will put you 10 weight above http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/VRCR

Side note: I do plan on running more parses @699 on the dummy. I'm pretty confident with 2500 hits that this set will work, but it only takes 1 miss to send me back to the drawing board :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HaelseMikiro

snip

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That seems to be the best full fending set I've seen so far. I just noticed that using the omelette allows dropping the tome chest (if you use pipira you'll end up at 698 accu, which is why I ruled that possibility out few days ago when the omelette wasn't updated on ariyala yet).

Edit: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/W0MV using 4x sks v melds instead of 4x det v melds you can reach 560-ish sks which should be plenty, otherwise you can use det melds and end up with 510-ish sks which pld and drk may prefer (?).

If we can get 0 miss on A12S in dps stance front with 700 acc, then yes, we can use the Alex body. My main issue with the previous build was to lower down the acc (impossible to go to 715, my min was 750). With this acc, the BiS I found (see my first post) was at 5680 AP.
But if this can be done, then I obtain the following build:

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/W188

With these stats for an Highander:
ilvl: 270. Str:1286. Acc: 700. Crit: 1215. Det: 610. SkS: 565. Vit:1742 (so 34492 HP). Par: 444.

AP: 5701.

Better that's right.

You're set is good EdgeFayth, but you made a huge mistake. You didn't manually change the stat weights in the BiS solver. Ariyala never got those updated to reflect Dervy's more recent research. So the final weight of your set for a Highlander is actually only 5236.67, not 5701.
That's 4590.618 added from gear.
Using my set, even with full SkS in the 9 open melds (lowest possible weight gain) gives a gear weight of 4590.82.
That's a bonus of 0.202 main stat damage potential(who even cares?) BUT has the added bonus of +1500 HP since VIT wasn't sacrificed for secondaries.
And then using the highest weight melds will take the gear weight to 4593.04

At a difference of 3 stat weight on the scale of 45-4600, in the end it matters nil, FFLOGS will reward crit RNG,party stacking, and mastery of an enounter.
I stand by my previous statement of

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HaelseMikiro

Use the final 9 melds however you like at this point to get SkS where you like it, then boost Crit/det with the leftovers.

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with the added defense of 'however you use those melds, it will probably be the highest weight set a WAR could possibly build, with the extra icing of maximum possible HP'

Hi.
I used the stats available here (not the ones by default):
https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/stat-weights/

They aren't correct?

@HaelseMikiro
Just comparing alex slaying ring vs tomestone fending ring, it seems like alex slaying ring has about 8 more stat weight. So doing that change would make it better

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alimdia

@HaelseMikiro
Just comparing alex slaying ring vs tomestone fending ring, it seems like alex slaying ring has about 8 more stat weight. So doing that change would make it better

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The difference is that mainstats on tanks are only worth 0.45x as much when calculating actual attack power, dropping that to about 4 Attack power, at the cost of 1500 hp.

The difference here, and what makes these BiS theorycrafting threads so ridiculous, is that you can actually get use out of 1500 more hp by eating busters in out of tank stance, or saving your healers GCDs over time, instead of 0.3% more DPS(assuming 1300+ Attack Power at full i270), which will not even be detectable on a parser due to crit variance.

HP does something, fractional percentage DPS increases do not.

So is no skill speed at all to be melded unto gear?
I just recently levelled my war to 60 and have had various people say crit, others said skill speed, i am lost... lol
Currently using POTD weapon with det melded, but my main is blm and 2nd is Ninja so i will probably not be getting scripture gear on Warrior for sometime.
If at all i will just get the Prototype gear from the new Alex raid

The slaying ring will be popular in i270s because skilled WAR doesn't need that much HP to begin with mostly because they are more efficient at tunnelling DPS and not tanking majority of the fights, coupled by DRK/PLD procs.

Ever since the 3.2 change, Vit is legit while Crit is not fixed and highly arguable due to the RNG nature. 8 more potential AP is barely noticeable when you actually compare to how much STR and VIT you are at i270.

There are many instances where more HP is noticably better especially if you raid. For example, A11S features a tank buster called Laser X Sword which deals 36k damage raw each on 2 tanks. You know how much easier for healers to still continue DPS if you have that potential full HP? Thrill Vengeance will easily survive (you take 26k with 40k hp) and gives ample of time for healers to contribute more damage than your almost nonexistent damage increase before E.D.D add spawns. Even 1 GCD each from healers is already better than your 0.3% damage up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maero

So is no skill speed at all to be melded unto gear?
I just recently levelled my war to 60 and have had various people say crit, others said skill speed, i am lost... lol
Currently using POTD weapon with det melded, but my main is blm and 2nd is Ninja so i will probably not be getting scripture gear on Warrior for sometime.
If at all i will just get the Prototype gear from the new Alex raid

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You want to have enough skill speed for triple fell cleaves in berserks ideally.

So the 3.4 stat weights were just released and this list has changed quite a bit. Interesting that the new BiS lists have almost no SkS on it so some WARs with bad internet connections or less skill will need to use sub-optimal gear.

The biggest and most impactful change was the Alex chest now being BiS due to the new crit weight. So while we gained a big chunk of crit and a higher stat weight, we lost a lot of SkS and ACC. Also, a lot of the i250 crafted accessories are now BiS when heavily V over melded. The necklace in particular is now really good but it's stuck in a weird position. With V overmelding, it's quite a bit better than the previous BiS, the shire necklace, but now we no longer have a surplus of ACC to drop so the Alex necklace might be needed unless we're melding ACC Vs. Without sacrificing Crit V melds, that leaves only 4 non-overmeld slots that can be used for ACC and that's not enough.

So yea, the BiS list is now kind of up in the air.

Pretty sure it was accepted that the alex chest was BiS even with the old stat weights. Using the alex necklace and priestly omelette you can get exactly 700 accu while using alex chest without the need of melding accu materias. http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/WWDM.

As for pentamelded i250 accs, they're mostly just a bit better than the i270 accs even when pentamelded with tier v materias, and since the set above only has 700 accu, you'll have to make up for the loss of accu by melding accu materias. I'll play around a bit more and see if I can figure out something that has better stat weight.

Edit: seems like only the pentamelded crafted slaying ring is BiS (with vit v, crit v, 3x sks v it has 0.330 more stat weight than the alex slaying ring with vit v).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/WWDM.

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This seems EXTREMELY theoretical, there's a massive accuracy loss for only about 20 main stat, unless you can put together a full set with accuracy caps that don't nullify the weight gain, I seriously doubt i250 crafted accessories will be worthwhile, even for enthusiasts with far too much gil.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Pretty sure it was accepted that the alex chest was BiS even with the old stat weights. Using the alex necklace and priestly omelette you can get exactly 700 accu while using alex chest without the need of melding accu materias. http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/WWDM.

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It technically wasn't because you could get a higher stat weight (and most importantly, it came with a lot higher SkS -- 517 SkS is not enough for a lot of people) while meeting the ACC cap with a 2 slaying / 3 fending ACC split and the augmented shire chest piece. You obviously lose quite a bit of HP so whether it's practically worth it is questionable but A12S was cleared and deliverance up-time was already incredibly high even with less HP. http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/WWE7

Though I guess after looking at it again, you can still achieve that now. It's just that you need to bankrupt yourself to do it since now you need more V pentamelded accessories to pull it off. So yea, going with the Alexander chest piece build is a lot more practical now, but like I said, the SkS is going to be an issue. You could swap some melds for SkS Vs and maybe look at different food but that would all be sub optimal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian_

It technically wasn't because you could get a higher stat weight (and most importantly, it came with a lot higher SkS -- 517 SkS is not enough for a lot of people) while meeting the ACC cap with a 2 slaying / 3 fending ACC split and the augmented shire chest piece. http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/WWE7

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I'm sure I've checked that set out a few weeks ago but it ended up slightly below the one I linked, if we use the old stat weights, but I might be wrong and I'm too lazy to check again lol. I get your point about 517 sks being too low for some people, personally I'll probably swap a few det melds into sks just for a bit of leniency in actual fights. I'm definitely not going to go v pentameld though, last time I tried pentamelding I ended up using like 80 mat iv for the 4 overmeld slots, can't imagine that with mat v. :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

unless you can put together a full set with accuracy caps that don't nullify the weight gain, I seriously doubt i250 crafted accessories will be worthwhile, even for enthusiasts with far too much gil.

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But that's what I was saying? I even added an edit saying that only the pentamelded ring is potentially BiS, winning by 0.330 stat weight over the alex slaying ring.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/WN7I

WAR BiS. that is all folks. (the only reason for the SS melds is because i know the limit of my internet connection. if you can do without it and meld 4 det 5's in that would be the most optimal)

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/X1GB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShinMetsu

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/X1GB

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I guess that's the best we've seen so far, around 1.5 stat weights higher than the non pentameld build using savage slaying ring.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

I guess that's the best we've seen so far, around 1.5 stat weights higher than the non pentameld build using savage slaying ring.

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HF overmelding lvl V materia which cost can easily reach millions for neglectable dmg increase.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by l1nk

HF overmelding lvl V materia which cost can easily reach millions for neglectable dmg increase.

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Personally I don't have the resources to pentameld v mats, but that's not our concern here right? We're looking for the "best" set, regardless of how negligible the actual improvement is, compared to the best non pentameld sets. And of course the cost doesn't matter too.

There were already some WARs doing the pentameld V materias in Midas patch. It's going to be even more reason for them to do it because PotD pushes the price down by a good margin. STR Vs was at 50-70k each in Tonberry, in contrast to 110k++ before that.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/XAJ6

I believe this to be the absolute 'stat value' BiS. If you go by unofficial stat weights, that is.
A penta-melded crafted Slaying ring would give slightly better value, but waste skill speed, assuming there aren't decimals past what the game shows us.
Whereas the Alex Slaying ring puts this set on point for skill speed value, breaching the tier by just 1-2 points.
Although Skill Speed for BiS could be debatable anyway, because one must wonder, even with all this skill speed, will i get in an extra hit between Temporal Stases and Inceptions?

Please note that i actually put Highlander for this set when comparing it to other sets
Oh and also, your healer might hate you for dropping so much VIT :')

edit
I'd like to elaborate on the use of crafted accessories, as some may find it to be a bit controversial.
First off, crafted accessories are better on tanks than on other roles due to how their stats work now.
STR doesn't count as 1 Attack Power anymore, instead STR and VIT count as 0.45.
This means we get less Attack Power out of our single Stats on accessories, as they only carry either STR or VIT, not both like left side.
So we get less out of Accessory iLv upgrades than a DPS would for example. And the Materia will carry 15 Stat points, regardless of iLv.

Furthermore, for me for example, these crafted accessories are a godsent as we've had bad luck with tank drops in A9S in our group.
The crafted accessories allow me to reach BiS sooner, they also allow new tanks that have the cash to spare to reach BiS sooner.
As long as you have the cash, these accessories are quite accessible. :P

For my part, i penta-melded V 3 accessories and it took me about 15m gil total.
I did 3 accessories so i can swap between a low Skill Speed and a balanced set.

For those people interested, for my alternate set i used the one i posted before at the top of this page, but i reversed the melds on necklace/ring as well as head/body so i can use the necklace and head on both sets.
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/XAL8

my BiS set is with the Alex ilv270 chest piece.

Left side is all savage gear but the helm (ilv270 Scripture Head, with 2x Det V melds.)

acc for Creator is 700 on the nose im told.

so my build has me at 700 acc and Crit at 1198 with Priestly Omelette HQ . Free for me to make since Cul Spc :)

If the acc turns out to be slightly higher, i can just respec the helm to have an acc V, which was my original plan.

Main goal I tell myself is that "any accuracy over the cap, is wasted stats." So i play it as close to it as possible :)

The shire ilv270 chest piece is WAY too much acc, considering our selection in tank pants atm, only reason id consider that chest is if in a future update theres Crit/Det pants at ilv260ish. Then theres room to debate.

Shire gear is ilv270 Head, Earring, Ring, and Bracelet. Everything else drops in savage.