War and shoulder tackle cross action

I think wars can benefit from a gap closer pvp wise. And I think I have a proposal that is balanced and easy to implememt.

Just reclassiffy the pugilists mantra action to a monk action (which makes more sense imo lore wise) and then let the war cross action the shoulder tackle instead of the mantra.

This is the most elegant fix as it doesn't screw around with any existing abilities nor does it require the addition of a new ability.

Brutal swing could have its cooldown increased to compensate if need be.

What does everyone think?

Should just make holmgang have a instant yank action instead of a slow pull. Similar to mortal kombat scorpion move.

I think WAR is in a very good position, and this would only elevate it above PLD and DRK even more. I feel like this change (while nice) does not help with balance. Perhaps 4.0 will change my mind, but not before

It helps balancethings against machinists which can kite war to death. pld and drk are getting buffed in 3.4 so I don\\\\\\'t see how this upsets balance in anyway.

moreover, mobility isn\\\\\\'t the reason why wars are favored anyway. So I don\\\\\\'t see why this simple change can\\\\\\'t happen now.

It\\\\\\'s just not right that our only method outside of weapon throw to stay on a target is a slow, unreliable pull that sometimes leaves the enemy outside of reach AND binds us for 6 seconds.

If holmgang is purified, the war basically just cc ed HIMSELF for 6 seconds.

AND it\\\\\\'s on a 3 min cooldown.

Its just a quality of life change mostly to prevent situations where as a war you can be kited without any means for recourse.

It also provides a bit of utility in groups in situations where a war needs to get to a healer quickly to try and peel or slow the enemy dps.

Doesn\\\\\\\\\\\\'t really unbalance anything and it doesn\\\\\\\\\\\\'t even require a reworking of any skills.

Pretty pls? = )

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

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Oh this is the pvp section, my bad, it would be more balanced in pvp than pve I suppose. However I have never seen an instance where a cross class skill is given exclusively for pvp and I doubt the system is designed with that in mind, so regardless of how good a change it would be a pvp, it would be bad for pve

This will be a HUGE imbalance,
there's no reason to give WARs (that are already very strong, expecially in solo queue) another toolset that actually only the poor DRK have (a gap closer).
Even because

Berserk > Full Swing > Fell cleve > Stun > Fell Cleave > Mythril Tempest (Stun) > Shoulder Tackle (Stun) > Mercy Stroke

So no please, a gap closer is something extremely useful in pvp, and in order to help Tanks to reach other jobs the SE moved Weapon throw from melee (that already have one or Gap closer by themself) to give it to tanks.
It's like asking Rampart crossclass because melee has no effective defense buff compared to tanks,
any role has his pro and cons.

And now an example that I experimented on myself, few time ago I used to play SCH and I got a very strong WAR against me,
I was aware of the WAR burst so I purified myself as I saw Fell Cleave + Stun up and I suvived, but right after me and my party was low in HP,
I tried to LB and he stopped me with Holmgang far from my party and making a melee die.

After the match I asked to that WAR (he is from my server) if he intentionally stopped my LB with holmgang, and he said no,
but he said "you already used your Purify, so you wouldn't be able to stop Holmgang".

So you just need to use it correctly in my opinion, I agree that for the pull effect of holmgang 3 min of CD are pretty long,
but your class has already all the tools in his hand to do a great job, so I wouldn't change anything about Warriors now.

(Ps. I'm not a main WAR, I just used it few times, the above mentionated Rotation I dont' know if it's the best one, but it was just an example to show how scary will be a WAR burst with a gapcloser too)

Then you do understand that fell cleaves are limp noodles unless we have maim+stormeseye+berserk+full swing+infuriate to do it again.

Further, the many shields also cut down on its damage. Plus any debuff which happens to be on the war.

Poor drk?

Lmao

They have 400 potency soul eater plus 450 carve and spit which is off global cooldown.

And they don't have to waste time building stacks and debuff in with stormeye.

You realize SE changed dark arts a while back to give drks more burst right?

Show me how they are SOOOFAR behind wars please.

And not asking for more burst just some options in situations where wars can't get from point a to b fast enough.

That's a completely separate issue than burst.

I'll say it again. Gapcloser, tarpit, weapon throw, and now unleash aoe bind is stupid.

Give the other two tank classes that actually have problems being kited some means to close gaps pls.

They really do need to add a dislike button, and allow us to make some of these post invisible.

Holmgang's best all in 1 package skill in pvp. Stuns, binds, uses a pullback, and keeps the war alive like its a holyground. 3 min recast is large, but its a death sentence if used at the right time. sprint/tp is now no longer an issue. Weaponthrow upgraded is 60 seconds. Of the 3 tanks, you already have the quickest solo regeneration. Compared, at least to plds, you have a 1 man burst option. All this...and youre complaining cuz youre forced to use track shoes insteada high heels for chasing down mchs? You were already handed dps's weaponthrow ona silver platter. Now you want mnk's shoulder tackle. Hell...lets give plds nin's overwhelm and why not...give whm's drgs spineshatter.

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

Poor drk?
Lmao
They have 400 potency soul eater plus 450 carve and spit which is off global cooldown.

Show me how they are SOOOFAR behind wars please.

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Ok I'll show it, maybe you are missing the buff part on the potency of the count, so:
Deliverance +5%
Sorm's Eye +10%
Maim +20%
Berserk +50%

Now you have to multiply them to see the addition of damage dealt during the time that those buff are up
1.05 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.5 = +107,9% of total buff

If you sum the potency of rotation I suggested before
Berserk > Full Swing (150*) > Fell cleve (500) > Stun (100) > Fell Cleave (500) > Mythril Tempest (Stun) (200) > Shoulder Tackle (Stun) (100) > Mercy Stroke (200)
150 + 500 + 100 + 500 + 200 + 100 + 200 = 1750 (without considering Full swing debuff and ticks, because I think it don't buff his own 150potency)
150 + 600 + 120 + 600 + 240 + 120 + 240 = 2070 (with Fell cleave debuff)

2070 total potency * 207.9% buffs = 4303.5 total potency,

Now, suggest me a DRK bust rotation and take care that during this WAR rotation the enemy is costantly stunned, so Purify or die.
But esteeming the DRK buffs, that if I'm not wrong are just Darkside (+15%) and Sole Survivor (+10%)
for a total of +26% of damage dealt buff.

and his strongest hits are
Carve and Spit (450)
and SoulEater (400)

Even if Carve and Spit is a OffGlobalCooldown (and it's good), and DRK has a lot of more OGCD than WAR, he can compete by far with his DPS, I'll be glad to calculate the potency if you suggest me a rotation of about 6sec, as the WAR one.

But again, the war one is all during a stun, and the build up for it is not so hard, you dont' need a degree to put storm's eye on a target and pop your buffs.
The drk can stun the target for 3 sec only and have to pop a lot of times Dark Arts that both steals you MP and slower your Burst, because instead of 1 OGCD you had to pop 2 of them.

Right. Good way to forget that:

1.wars have to build stacks when darks don't
2. Darks have faster base attack speed & blood weapon increases that by another 10 percent.
3. Drks have FULL SWING TOO.
4. You ARE DOING MATH WRONG.

how the hell did an increase of 79 percent (I'll assume this is right) become 179 percent down the line.

Bro, pass elementary school math before you make a math post.

5 + 10 + 20 + 50 = 85% increase not whatever over 170% you came up with.

Do assuming you're right with your other numbers

2070 × 1.85 = 3829.

Nice job.

You just overstated by almost 500 potency.

Dark side 15%
Sole survivor 10%
Fullswing 20%

Rotation:
sole survivor
Salted earth
Dark arts
Full swing 150
Stun 100
Soul eater 400
Carve and spit 450
Dark arts
Tar pit 250
Dark passenger 250
Dark arts
soul eater 240
Plunge 200
Carnal chill 200
Mercy stroke
Two ticks of salted earth 150

=2190 × 1.4 = 3066

Factor in faster auto and it's roughly same as war.

Your buffs are multiplicative (as in 'multiply') in this game, not additive (as in addition). For example, consider the Paladin abilities Rampart (-20% damage taken) and Sentinel (-30% damage taken). In this game, because buffs are multiplicative, if you pop both of these at the same time, the net reduction is: 1.00 (normal damage taken) x 0.8 (-20% damage taken) x 0.7 (-30% damage taken) = 0.56 (net -46% damage taken) instead of 1.00 - 0.8 - 0.3 = 0.5. That's why if you pop all your WAR buffs as mentioned above you receive a 107.9% increase in damage/potency instead of 85%.

Ouch. Guess someone taught me = s

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

Right. Good way to forget that:
Bro, pass elementary school math before you make a math post.

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Learn how the game math before to shout to other.

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3. Drks have FULL SWING TOO.

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For that I didn't putted it in WAR's the buff and I made 2 different count with and without Fullswing.
To be as imparial as possible, but more you are going on and more this seems a childish caprice and you won't even admit the difference between the 2 burst...
Please take a look even to the thumbus up and start questioning if you might be wrong, it happens, and there's no problem with it.

Anyway, let's math for DRK ;)

Dark arts + Full swing 150 + Stun 100 + Soul eater 400 + Carve and spit 450 + Dark arts + Tar pit 250 + Dark passenger 250 + Dark arts + soul eater 240 + Plunge 200 + Carnal chill 200 + Mercy stroke 200
Two ticks of salted earth 150

(but who will remain there considering that he is unstunned in the last 3 sec?
And also ground DoTs I don't remember if count even the debuff on the enemy, anyway I put it in the count)

150 + 100 + 400 + 450 + 250 + 250 + 240 + 200 + 200 + 200 +150 = 2.590 (w/o full swing debuff)
150 + 120 + 480 + 540 + 300 + 300 + 288 + 240 + 240 + 240 + 180 = 3.078

Buffs!
Darkside (+15%)
Sole survivor (+10%)

1.15 * 1.1 = +26%

Total Burst damage 3.078 * 1.26 = 3.878

(War 4300 vs DRK 3880)
That I admit that is not such bad, BUT:
I marked in Grey the part where the target is free to act, if it is a healer you are ruined, any heal in that timeframe will make your burst shit.
Aslo you popped even all your party utility that is the "strong" part of a DRK.

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1.wars have to build stacks when darks don't

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God... you can compare this with the MP management needed by DRK,
remember that if during your burst you lose Darkside csause of no MP, your dps will be debuffed by 15% and you won't be able to use las Dark Arts for example.

Also you can build those stacks hitting ANY target, even the Adrenaline Box, and if they are near to disapper you can use Raw intuition or Vengeance to reset them to 30s.
Also as WAR unleass you are just applying Fractur to all (that I doubt is a smart way to act) both any rotation u do will give you Wrath...
You dont' even need to do somethin like SMN that need to be in dreadwyrm Trance and have atleast 2 Aetheflow stack up to burst, so do you really think this is THAT hard?

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2. Darks have faster base attack speed & blood weapon increases that by another 10 percent.

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It won't change (almost) nothing because it is a rotation based on Abilities and not on Weaponskills, so you cast them instantly, both with and without BloodWeapon,
it reduces the cast/recast time of all your weaponskills and spells, but the DRK rotation is just a spam of all OGCD.

That's all.

I did 2 test on WD pier too:

3 Dark arts while you are engaged in battle will make you run out of MP, you will be no able to do Dark Passanger or the last buffed Soul Eater (or you will lose the stance) BUT:
I think blood weapon can save you, because during a ton of attacks I think you wil lbe able to recouperate few MP

I putted Sole survivor on a dummy and used Salted earth, no damage difference detected.
But I noticed that on dummies Sole survivor does not apply Vuln.Up debuff -.-
So I still have to test it, but if I'm right the Salted earth dots are not buffed by Full swing / Sole survivor.

Also Full swing will set the same dot for DRK and WAR, but the WAR is heavy buffed compared to DRK,
this won't put such a huge gap, but, it's just to point it out xD

Ninjas want a gap closer in PvE too!

Please make Overwhelm available in PvE.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

Ninjas want a gap closer in PvE too!

Please make Overwhelm available in PvE.

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/ac "Shukuchi" <t>

Enjoy your PvE gapcloser XD

Yeah.... no.

If you give WAR a gap closer, every 90 seconds they will just choose whose time it is to die.

Is this the thread where we ask for stupid things? In that case can I get Assize and Aero III on SMN? Also I would very much enjoy Holmgang on Dragoon, for balance.

Hallowed Ground for monk pls. At a 60sec cd.

Instead of a gap closer, give them a passive in 4.0 that gives them +10% movement speed when they have stacks up.
Looking at their design in comparison to PLD, where they need inner beast to hit a target in order to mitigate dmg, it makes a bit more sense they just had a passive movement speed increase (but slower than NIN and MNK by 5%)
This also helps with the slight issue of 'sprint' tanking too. (Also helps maintain stacks between pulls even more)

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Originally Posted by Geologo

/ac "Shukuchi" <t>

Enjoy your PvE gapcloser XD

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Only if they remove the delay after using Shukuchi.