Arrow card questions

So, I've heard that several classes love getting the Arrow card (blm, brd, mch, mnk, and war in particular), but I've seen those classes say they don't like it at all, so my question is: what classes benefit the most from the arrow card and in what situations (like during a lot of trash or boss fights).

My biggest problem is knowing when to give someone an arrow. I can't speak for mch, mnk, or war, but whenever I do aoe as brd, I run out of tp very quickly, so I'm worried if I give it to tp users during aoe situations, I could give them tp issues.

Lastly, would it be a bad idea to give the arrow to myself if no one else in the party can benefit from it (assuming I can't aoe it)? <_< >_>

And another non-arrow question - what is considered better, enhanced or extended cards? I kinda like enhanced more, but I still have hard time telling which is more helpful in the end.

(Sorry for all of the questions)

So, regarding Arrow, I only really throw it on someone if I'm sure their TP can take it, so during a small pull, because I really don't have to have to use a Spire on someones TP in a boss fight (especially during raids) when I could've just burnt it. Now, the weird thing is as an AST, I always feel like I shouldn't be using the cards on myself because that's bad and I'm the benevolent buffer healer who reads the fortunes of others and yackity yack *~*. If you don't want to shuffle the Arrow, if you don't want to save it, use it on yourself. Get some Gravity casts in (if you like to DPS), get some faster heals, because who doesn't like faster heals. I...can't speak on the topic of who likes what cards because it really depends on the player.

(NOTE: For those of you who DON'T want a card when it's on you, right click the buff, it'll leave.)

Some players dislike it because it can change their GCD sync with the fight a bit off. That is not bad though since it is indeed a damage incrase by the end. Good players tend to like Arrow on any job they play. Also using it on yourself for a Presence of Mind-like buff is pretty cool and totally viable. As for TP issues, unless you throw too many Arrows at someone or a enhanced Arrow at someone that already go pretty low on TP, they shouldn't have any TP issues. So pay attention to your party, talk to them too. Of course your priorities with Arrow should always be BLM followed by BRD. And if they don't like it, they should just remove instead of complaining.

- Best Job to give Arrow to is BLM, hands down. In the absence of a BLM then I'd go: BRD > MNK/NIN > WAR. Could include SMN in there if the player is using Ruin IIIs outside of Dreadwyrm Trance (which they should, but not all players do).

- Only cards you'll want to give to yourself is Spear (before using CDs like LA and Lightspeed) and Ewer, otherwise burn them on Royal Road.

- I'd say Extended Cards are better, if only because it means you get a use out of Spear (via RR), instead of burning comparatively better cards (Bole and Balance) to get the Enhanced effect. In 8 mans though, Expanded is better than both (unless it's Arrow; an Extended > Enhanced Arrow would be better IMO, assuming you have a BLM).

You could always just use it on yourself if no one wants it.

Technically speaking, all classes benefit from the arrow card UP TO A CERTAIN POINT. It's perhaps the one card that actually boosts all three roles in a party (tanks hit faster for more enmity, healers heal faster to catch up easier, DPS spanks mobs faster). TP and cooldown/GCD synergy do become issues at a certain point, but that's also individuals. A skilled DPS will be able to factor in an Arrow card and adapt to the increase. (It also gives you a chance to actually use Spire on a DPS...)

The one DPS that will not mind Arrow in any circumstances is BLM, simply because they are not resource limited. For any other DPS tho, AoE is generally not a good time to Arrow (In fact, I find better use chucking Ewer on the SMN or Spire on the melee/ranged just so they can pull off a few more Blizzard IIs/AoE weaponskills before going dry).

Arrow is always useful for you, but it falls off unless you are constantly using your GCDs. Enhanced Arrow on yourself as your Malefic II/Gravity spam tho...
https://www.emojibase.com/resources/...qQ_OSCTg3l.png

Speaking from a MCH PoV here, I adore Arrow anytime I am using my burst combos with Wildfire. Usually with Arrow active, I can get in a near full combo a third time, if not half a combo without rapid/proccing. Either way it increases the overall damage of that burst string usually around 2-3k on its explosion, more if random crits are feeling generous. When you spot a MCH throw out Wildfire (look for the red smoke and the little red beeping bomb to appear on boss), it's a perfect time to throw it their way then.

To put it simply : Mana class > TP class

hands down the BLM is first and foremost, any kind of arrow is always welcome
Pure DPS boost no loss
then comme SMN but it force then to rework their mana cycle a bit, huge DPS gain small loss if mana not manage adequatly

then come BRD/MCH and NIN/MNK, the cast class are always happy but can be a bit trouble if short in TP
NIN and MNK have a huge benefit in DPS but inflict huge struggle in TP management

DRG are the least wanted for arrow because their rotation is rightfully calculated... all DRG I know dislike it XD

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on healer it's good if you're in DPS window

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Enhanced card is mainly Spear, bole and ewer
because it's very useful on us healer (spear/ewer give a lots of mana if use with LA) Bole always a breeze on tanks

Thanks for the help, everybody!

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Originally Posted by tjw

Arrow is always useful for you, but it falls off unless you are constantly using your GCDs. Enhanced Arrow on yourself as your Malefic II/Gravity spam tho...
https://www.emojibase.com/resources/...qQ_OSCTg3l.png

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I did this once and it was magical. *-*

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

I'd say Extended Cards are better, if only because it means you get a use out of Spear (via RR), instead of burning comparatively better cards (Bole and Balance) to get the Enhanced effect. In 8 mans though, Expanded is better than both (unless it's Arrow; an Extended > Enhanced Arrow would be better IMO, assuming you have a BLM).

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While over time extended are better then enhanced since they're double time against 50% extra potency from enhanced, if the fight is about to have an downtime this makes your extended time not so usefull.

I'm curious, I always asumed BLM mana regen would possibly break under Arrow.

On your opener with arrow you might ran out of mana quickly like in 15sec but it allow you to go in ice then one tick go back to Fire then Fire IV and ice for BliIV

Since Blm have real infinite mana it's never a problem

And if you wait for a tick just cast a thunder

The MP in single target situations is never a problem.
But too much SS is really annoying on AoE situations since you might accidentally skip a mana tick. Still, arrow is very welcome since those FireIIs and Flares will be out much faster.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

- Best Job to give Arrow to is BLM, hands down.

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BLMs will (should) click it off on trash because the extra speed prevents them from refreshing enough MP to do their rotation, resulting in a DPS loss, so don't throw it at a BLM on trash. If you use it on a BLM during a boss, however, you will be that BLMs new best friend.

For the other jobs, too many Arrows can lead to early depletion of TP/MP. In a light party, I'd recommend burning it for an Extend. In full party content that will last longer than couple minutes, if there's no BLM, Redraw. If it's a short/easy fight, the resource depletion won't be an issue, so you can use it on someone based on the priorities the above posters have suggested.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

BLMs will (should) click it off on trash because the extra speed prevents them from refreshing enough MP to do their rotation, resulting in a DPS loss, so don't throw it at a BLM on trash. If you use it on a BLM during a boss, however, you will be that BLMs new best friend.

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No we won't, that was even a topic for discussion on the BLM Sanctuary recently. Just add a Blizzard or Freeze cast before Fire III and we are good. That is both a DPS and a PPS increase.

Though for trash in dungeons I'd give Arrow to myself as AST so I can Gravity faster. But that is mostly because I have no trust on Duty Finder people.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

BLMs will (should) click it off on trash because the extra speed prevents them from refreshing enough MP to do their rotation, resulting in a DPS loss, so don't throw it at a BLM on trash. If you use it on a BLM during a boss, however, you will be that BLMs new best friend.

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See, this is what confuses me. I've heard that arrows are great for BLMs, especially during aoe situations, and all of these conflicting opinions just confuses me even more. I don't understand how speed can be bad for BLMs when Ley Lines does just that.

Also, I would be really irritated if someone just clicked off my card instead of telling me outright, that way I know not to continue giving them arrows.

Not a single sane black mage will leyline in aoe rotation

However then can learn to deal with it, too much cast speed, then use blizzard II
(Since good caster are always in melee range XD)

And also do never click off a card, first it's a buff qo don't throw it away
Second it's rude !

Obviously you always give the enhanced arrow to the ninja, so they just have no idea what they're doing

My Arrow Rules:
1. Give it to BLM if they are doing their Solo Rotation. Never give it to them for their AoE Rotation, this is where they get thrown off.
2. Melee. Especially MNK and NIN. It helps them get through their weapon combos quicker. Watch their TP though because Arrow can help drain it more.
3. MCH. Especially during Wildfire.
4. BRD. Helps with their cast times
5. WAR. Helps push their DPS more
6. Other Tanks. Helps them go through their Aggro-generating combos quicker if they are having aggro problems.
7. Myself and the other healer.
8. SMN. I read somewhere Arrow wasn't potent enough to make their Ruin III casts during Dreadwyrm Stance fast enough to add one more cast.

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Originally Posted by Kibby

See, this is what confuses me. I've heard that arrows are great for BLMs, especially during aoe situations, and all of these conflicting opinions just confuses me even more. I don't understand how speed can be bad for BLMs when Ley Lines does just that.

Also, I would be really irritated if someone just clicked off my card instead of telling me outright, that way I know not to continue giving them arrows.

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Don't give a BLM arrow. You will literally F'up the AoE rotation because they won't get the full mana tick when casting F3 From Astral Ice. A BLM shouldn't be using Ley Lines in the AoE rotation unless they have really slow Spell Speed for the same reason. If F3 takes less than 3 seconds you miss out on an F2 or a Flare and are left scratching your head as to why.

On a boss it's okay but I'd still rather not have it, because it's not really going to help with anything because the rotation is the rotation. You're not getting off an extra spell, you're potentially only screwing up how much MP I get back while casting B4 making me lose my full rotation on the refresh.
You only want extra SS once you get to AF because you NEED your AI T1-B4-F3 to take at least 6 seconds to get full MP. Which is what it takes at around 1200 SS.
It may help a bit when single targeting, but it's not really very helpful at all.

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Originally Posted by Kibby

I've heard that arrows are great for BLMs, especially during aoe situations

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For the first ~11-17 seconds it's nice: F3 > F2 x3 > SwiftFlare (Convert > Flare) > Transpose > Wait on MP tick. After that, your rotation lasts 15 seconds if you have 800+ Spell Speed: F3 > F2 x2 > Flare > Transpose > Wait on MP tick

Having 10% off cast time for that first 11-17 seconds means transpose happens 1.1-1.7 seconds earlier. The possible scenarios:

1. Pack dies in first wave before transpose - You just cut 1 second off the dungeon run
2. Pack is under 10% after first wave - Rather than going back into AF, it's better to use Freeze/Blizzard II/Blizzard/Scathe, and extra one of these is a small boost
3. Pack still has quite a bit of HP after first wave - The 1-2 seconds might have put your 2nd wave 3 seconds earlier, or it might be in exactly the same spot

In none of those scenarios is there any dramatic increase in damage. A more likely scenario: (not realizing Arrow was tossed your way) Transpose > Fire 3 without getting the 2nd MP tick > Fire 2 (or Flare if you caught it) > Wait for transpose to be back up

Still don't buy this 'don't give black mages arrows' conversation. Even as someone who plays the class for fun occassionally. Spell speed is almost as high of a stat weight as intellect for black mage for a reason, and arrow basically gives them that.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Still don't buy this 'don't give black mages arrows' conversation. Even as someone who plays the class for fun occassionally. Spell speed is almost as high of a stat weight as intellect for black mage for a reason, and arrow basically gives them that.

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It gives them SS, but we're already as high as we want to be most of the time.
All giving Arrow does is make us wait extra time for an MP tick or screw up the rotation by denying us an MP tick because our F3 was too fast.
Leylines is used because the Single Target rotation casts three spells in Umbral Ice, which should always give you three MP ticks. (Under Arrow+Leylines it MAY only give you two, which is a problem)
The AoE rotation however, you cast a single spell in Umbral Ice, and that spell is already perilously close to 3 seconds, gaining any extra spell speed will DENY the mana tick you need because it will be less than 3 seconds.

You don't have to believe me that giving BLM Arrow is never as useful as you think it is, or that in many cases it's just a bad idea. But you will someday, cause someone to miss a Flare and they will be mad or very confused. It took me about 3 missed Flares one dungeon to realize I was getting Spell Speed buffed too fast to get the mana tick I needed.

What I'm learning from this thread is to just ask at the start if anyone wants to not have arrow.

I don't give BLMs Arrow for the aforementioned reasons; it's all down to individual preference, and I'd rather just toss them Balances instead of giving them a buff they might not want that could potentially screw up their rotation. Never had any complaints about it.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

It gives them SS, but we're already as high as we want to be most of the time.

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????

That doesn't make any sense, that's like saying you have as much intellect as you want. It's a DPS increase, if you're worried about mana ticks just do a single freeze cast after blizzard III, you'll be full mana by the time it's over.

For flare I just don't understand that because you don't get mana at all during astral fire to begin with. I apologize if I am missing something, but I've done the AoE rotation many times with arrow on me and it's always an increase from what I can tell.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I don't give BLMs Arrow for the aforementioned reasons; it's all down to individual preference, and I'd rather just toss them Balances instead of giving them a buff they might not want that could potentially screw up their rotation. Never had any complaints about it.

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Same. If I get an arrow, I'll just put it on myself during trash pulls and Gravity spam, lol, UNLESS there is a BRD or MCH. Though if they don't seem to be doing good damage I'll just put it on myself anyways. I used to give Arrows to BLMs on bosses but after reading this thread I might stop doing that and use it as Royal Road food instead if no one else would benefit from it...

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

????

That doesn't make any sense, that's like saying you have as much intellect as you want. It's a DPS increase, if you're worried about mana ticks just do a single freeze cast after blizzard III, you'll be full mana by the time it's over.

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It actually does make sense, though. It's the same with DRGs. There is a point in which you have much more SS than you need, and it can be detrimental to your rotation because of buffs falling off and coming back up at different times, or in the case of BLM, by messing up with the mana ticks once they get into Umbral Ice, forcing them to stay in Umbral longer without doing anything or entirely messing up their entry into Astral Fire if they don't notice the speed buff.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

My Arrow Rules:
1. Give it to BLM if they are doing their Solo Rotation. Never give it to them for their AoE Rotation, this is where they get thrown off.
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8. SMN. I read somewhere Arrow wasn't potent enough to make their Ruin III casts during Dreadwyrm Stance fast enough to add one more cast.

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The fast enough "to add one more cast" thing, kind of sticks out to me. I'm not 100% convinced that's the only metric to go by.


One thing about the arrow I've noticed at least when using it on myself is the mobility afforded by shaving those few moments off the end of the casting. I'm sure there are lots of situations where the arrow does at best, nothing particularly useful: When you are standing static in front of a target dummy with no movement, no need to spend precious brain cycles on mechanics, and you get to pick out the cherry run where you make no mistakes. There I'm positive, it probably isn't going to get many people many extra casts. Even if it did it's not like you want to build your rotation expectations around a buff another party member may or may not get to hand you.


In practice however there are a great deal many more restrictions on what you can do than the theoretical limits of your rotation being executed properly. In an actual fight especially a new one your mental focus will be split, and there will be environmental effects and mechanics (quite possibly random ones) demanding on-the-fly compensation.

I've certainly heard the BLMs I play with loudly curse losing their buff to small mistakes in timing when doing mechs, or winding up face down in the dirt because they were just trying to get that last cast in a hair before they have to move. If they'd have arrow on, things might turn out differently.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

????

That doesn't make any sense, that's like saying you have as much intellect as you want. It's a DPS increase, if you're worried about mana ticks just do a single freeze cast after blizzard III, you'll be full mana by the time it's over.

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Ahh, now I understand where you're confused. You're doing the AoE rotation incorrectly. You don't cast B3.
You go from Flare-Transpose-F3-F2-F2-Flare->repeat.
So you're only time in UI is while casting F3. So you absolutely cannot afford your F3 to be less than 3 seconds.

As a NIN, I welcome Arrow.

Aren't arrows just for the archers? Oh, I guess black mage can put some magic on it and shoot some magic arrows.