Daily Rush Vs. First Time Dungeoners

I'm not wanting to open a can of worms but I'm curious on other people's views on this subject. Yesterday I did the last dungeon of the first Main Scenario for the very first time. I did this with apparently two other people in the same state as me. We declared our intention to want to watch the cut scenes because we have never seen the story.

We were told to, if I paraphrased. "forget that we've got dailies." This was the end of the entire story that greets us, what the entire story line is going towards. And we were told to suck up it and ignore it. I and one other person ended up just watching the cut scenes roll through because we ended locked out of the boss battles.

I'm not condemning the people who wanted to get done with their dailies, but the position of myself and the others experiencing the tale for the first time is understandable right?

That's why dungeons aren't designed that way anymore.

The reason people told you to suck it up is because the cutscenes, if you wait for them, add up to like 30min-1 hour.

And unfortunately you are in the minority compared to the group.

For those two end dungeons, it's suggested to form your own party if you intend to run it "proper"

Go ahead and watch the cut scenes. Just be aware that the experienced players will not wait for you. In some content, where there are long CS at the beginning, it will irritate the other players to be just standing there waiting for the shield to drop. There are instances where the experienced players will actually kick from the dungeon for watching them. The entire situation is nothing but a breeding ground for toxic behaviour.

SE has improved dungeon / raid design to limit CS mostly be placing them after you have exited the instance and have outright removed them from middle of dungeon/raids.

Also, the CS can be watched later, on your time at the INN.

I am in a unique situation.

I play the game with my brother who sits next to me in real life, we have 2 televisions side by side. I am on computer while he is on playstation 3.

It always takes him a long time to load in, sometimes longer than the CS themselves...he himself is always in favor of skipping cutscene to get things moving since it takes so long in the first place to even load in.

Yet i seen multiple attacks on him telling him to "skip the CS" despite the fact that he's done all content in the game and he has the "skip previously watched cs" feature on.

In the end, sometimes you just gotta be patient. Pull your phone out and check facebook, alt tab for a min to see something amusing, do something beneficial in real life like throw some ramen noodles in, or perhaps light up a smoke? Just don't blindly hate on people, my brother can't afford a ps4 atm. Maybe he can in the future but he certainty and frustratingly has to put up with things beyond his control.

So some players want to watch cutscenes, and some have no choice even when trying their best to go fast. Either way, show some patience.Act like adults.

As a player who doesn't mind letting others enjoy the story, I say let them wait and enjoy your cutscenes. Watching them from the inn room after just isn't the same.

I've been in a group similar to this, both dps were clearing for the first time and asked to see the cutscenes, but the tank shot them down saying he didn't have time for it. Good thing I was healer, it's tough to solo a boss as tank. Let alone Midgardsormr. :D

Had the exact same issue when I did these dungeons. I ended up having to skip them all and then go back and watch them later. It does suck, but it's just bad design that you have those lengthy cut-scenes on a dungeon that people may get for their daily (of course, if they weren't on the daily list, you'd never get to do them, and people would be stuck on their story forever). As others have said, I think that's really the only 2 that happens on, so they certainly did learn from it.

we ALL had this issue with the cutscenes in this dungeon, so yes, we all understand your point. except of course people who ignore the story and the very first people ever who did the dungeon...

i startet the game back in 2013, was a beta player and i wasn't able to watch the cutscenes in patient either, because back then those dungeons were used for farming tomes to buy gear from. i would say the behavior back then was even more toxic than today, because when a tank or healer, or more people at the same time watching cutscenes you could'nt further progress the dungeon because people were not that overgeared like they are today.

the cutscenes take around 30 mins to watch. that's 30 mins of staying aound, doing nothing for all the people who are with you in the dungeon. that means the cutscenes together take more time than actual doing the dungeon.

and trust me: in your 50th run or so through these dungeons you don't want to stay there for 30 mins waiting for the newbie either.

Hmm taking in this information it does become understandable... could have been more so one person had said the non exit cut scenes took as long as they did. My perspective before the dungeon was that the cut scenes only took a minute or so, not what feel like 5 for the skippers. But it's good to know that story dungeons later on aren't such a problem with the story vs performing things.

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Originally Posted by Konkonfire

My perspective before the dungeon was that the cut scenes only took a minute or so, not what feel like 5 for the skippers.

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If I'm not totally mistaken: a lot of those Cutscenes arent "automated", meaning: you can take your time to read the text and continue with the dialouge as soon as you're done reading - maybe you're a fast reader.
And ofc it didnt felt like eternity for you when watching those cutscenes: You were actually doing something, while everyone who had done the dungeons before was just standing around (or rather rushing to the next boss).

I began playing this game with the ARR-beta and my memories of the first time running those dungeons are bad and stressful ones - and that while we went in with 4 people, covering the tank and healer spots and letting the dps know that we're gonna watch the cutscenes. I've done those dungeons since for every friend who reached that point to make sure they gonna get a decent experience - whenever I did them in DF I have to admit that I dont care that much anymore about a newbie. I'm also here to play this game, not to stand around for half an hour, waiting for someone (and yes, the cutscenes DO take that long - a newbie can spend a whole "run" only watching cutscenes, while the rest of the party is killing all the stuff)

Those dungeons weren't much fun for me either, I let the party know I wanted to watch the cutscenes and they were very nice about it but they let me know they weren't going to wait for me. As a result I spent more than half the dungeon in cutscenes because as soon as I finished one, the very next one started since my party was already past that point. It was nice seeing the story, but I basically didn't get to do anything. I also got lost since I didn't know where my party went.

There was one instance where I ran a dungeon for the first time as a healer, and went into a cutscene before the boss. Even by the time I decided to cut it early for whatever reason the tank decided to jump in early and they were stuck without a healer and died horribly. Despite me skipping the cutscene 10 seconds after when I felt it'd be long and sprinted towards the boss arena, it got closed off before I could make it.

Needless to say, they were embarrassed.

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Originally Posted by DynamoAce

for whatever reason the tank decided to jump in early and they were stuck without a healer and died horribly

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Tank that does not check if his group (and specially healer) is inside deserves to die horribly.

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Originally Posted by Galborion

Tank that does not check if his group (and specially healer) is inside deserves to die horribly.

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And he did. :D
Now don't get me wrong, sometimes I can understand if a player is in a hurry and really just wants to get things over with, etc or make a run go as fast as possible.

But doesn't it make more sense to make sure everyone is ready before they run in? Yknow, before deaths can happen which will only prolong the duty even longer if a wipe happens. Just seems redundant to me.

They should remove the main story daily altogether, remove all cut scenes, or rework it to show a different recap version at the end. As tank I also hate waiting and when I see a bonus, I ask if they care for the cutscenes or not. If they do, I just leave and make gil crafting or decorate my house for 30m and get a instapop and repeat. Usually by the 2nd queue I get the rush hour anyway.

Hopefully, my exit didn't take others with me since the penalty for them is completely removed at this point and they stayed to help. If not, then just like most dungeons nor trials, they need to form a party and queue up their own version.

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Originally Posted by PrincessNuri

Hopefully, my exit didn't take others with me since the penalty for them is completely removed at this point and they stayed to help. If not, then just like most dungeons nor trials, they need to form a party and queue up their own version.

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I queue in progress as a Tank for the dailies. I say thank you to tanks like you. I get to run shortened instances and my arrival is always praised. So, to you, and all the other rage quit impatient tanks out there. Thank you for making life easier for me.

I always suggested that a checkbox - akin to 'Join in progress' - should be added for those two dungeons/roulette which place you in parties with at least one first-time player and engage a particular variant of those runs where engaging bosses before everyone finishes the cutscenes is simply not possible; albeit, subjecting yourself to those longer runs will yield high tome rewards considering you are allowing first time players to view their cutscenes at the expense of your time. That way, first timers will always get to see the run properly the first time around and high-level players that are willing to put in the time will still be rewarded and given incentive to queue for such modes.

Albeit last time I debated that someone had an extremely hard time understanding my concept and acted like I was forcing something on the higher level players somehow so I got really frustrated and stopped checking that topic after a while.

Adding such lengthy cutscenes to a mandatory dungeon in an MMO is just bad design. It's all well and good to have story in your MMO, but make the intro cutscene happen before queue, add no cutscenes during the instance (unless they're ~a minute, maybe) and have the ending cutscene happen upon exit. SE has gotten much better about this in more recent content but in the case of Castrum Meridianum or Praetorium I'm afraid I have to side with people who say, "Just watch them later."

Yeah, the two main scenario ARR dungeons are the worst offenders because they can essentially be done by a party of four. Keep in mind that while you may want to enjoy your story the first time, these players are probably playing that content hundreds of times because SE commonly has the Main Scenario end dungeons give the most tomes. If you want to enjoy the story of the content as you are playing it, you should form a party of either FC members who are willing to wait, or make a PF group. If you can't, then that should shed some light as to how much of a minority in this situation you really are.

The good news is that Heavensward's Main Scenario dungeon has less cutscenes and doesn't have them placed randomly in the middle of a battle. They also purposely limited the item level to the point where heals and a tank are very much a necessity.

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Originally Posted by ChameleonMS

I queue in progress as a Tank for the dailies. I say thank you to tanks like you. I get to run shortened instances and my arrival is always praised. So, to you, and all the other rage quit impatient tanks out there. Thank you for making life easier for me.

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You're very welcome! However, I always leave at the start when I find out the type of run it will be so unfortunately it isn't at all shortened.

I started playing just under 6 months ago and have hardly seen any cutscenes that involve a pug group. Toxic environment here, man's inhumanity against man...it only gets worse when you get further along in game. I don't mind waiting at all, but that's me :)

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Originally Posted by Besame

I don't mind waiting at all, but that's me :)

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I don't mind waiting 2 minutes in a 20 minute dungeon.
I don't mind waiting 5 minutes in a 40 minute dungeon.

I do kinda mind waiting 30 minutes in a 20 minute dungeon >_>

But that's why I've stopped doing MSQ roulette altogether.

I believe that party finder is the way to dictate how you want to run a dungeon. If you want other people to understand your need to watch the scene for the first time run then put it on PF and find some like minded people and go to town, get popcorn some drinks and watch the "movie" but to get into a dungeon and THEN ask that everyone wait for you is ludicrous. It's all about how you approach your needs not about complaining that people are not patient.
I don't have more than 2-3 hours at a time when I play so I really do not want to sit there while someone watches a CS just for the heck of being a nice guy when I joined the dungeon to get the run done. PF is your friend for your unique needs Post it there and just go about doing whatever else you enjoy doing until you have a complete party with the same interests in mind.

I tank and heal. If you see me in a dungeon and I'm DD'ing, you very well may want to just kick me anyway (Sylphie has better DPS than I do). However, I'm watching the cut scenes. Watching them in the inn doesn't give you the feel of watching the cut scene then running the dungeon, then another cut scene or two (or three). If experianced players want to kick me, they can find themselves another healer or tank, which would likely take longer then just letting me finish the cut scene.

On the other side of that coin, I would not deprive another player the joy of watching the cut scene, even if I've run the dungeon 50 times already, hate it, and just want to get out. In fact, kicking players for watching cut scenes seems like a violation of the ToS.

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3.2 Disruption. You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other players, including the disruption of Square Enix's computers and servers.

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I am all for people watching the Cut Scenes in them. Unless both Tanks or both Healers are the ones watching (and even then it's probably still doable except Ultima maybe), it's not a problem for the group.
Just don't expect to fight the bosses.

I've played this game for years and have yet to see those cutscenes...

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Originally Posted by Krovoc-The-Destroyer

...In fact, kicking players for watching cut scenes seems like a violation of the ToS.

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FYI:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...nd-immediately.

Conclusion:

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"Although we understand the impact that is caused after being removed from a duty finder group, please be aware that Game Masters will be unable to take action if a group member has been removed due to a player dispute, or if their game style differs (i.e. skipping in-game cutscenes, disagreement on using specific boss encounter tactics etc).

To avoid such incidents in the future, we would advise to speak with either the group leader or fellow party members when joining a new group to discuss any specific party restrictions that need to be addressed (i.e. any loot priorities, allowing group members to watch cutscenes etc)."

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Originally Posted by Konkonfire

I'm not wanting to open a can of worms but I'm curious on other people's views on this subject....

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No worries! Below was other people's view on this subject FYI

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...nd-immediately

Forget to mention, above is just one of the MANY threads for the same subject. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Renius

I believe that party finder is the way to dictate how you want to run a dungeon. If you want other people to understand your need to watch the scene for the first time run then put it on PF and find some like minded people and go to town, get popcorn some drinks and watch the "movie" but to get into a dungeon and THEN ask that everyone wait for you is ludicrous. It's all about how you approach your needs not about complaining that people are not patient.
I don't have more than 2-3 hours at a time when I play so I really do not want to sit there while someone watches a CS just for the heck of being a nice guy when I joined the dungeon to get the run done. PF is your friend for your unique needs Post it there and just go about doing whatever else you enjoy doing until you have a complete party with the same interests in mind.

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Theres one deficiency with this line of thought. Completely new players dont know in advance that Castrum doesnt play by the rules of all the other dungeons theyve run up to this point. They might guess that for Praetorium, but Castrum comes out of left field. And for what its worth, I totally agree that PF is the way that people who want to watch the cut scenes should go. They just dont all know it in advance.

Signed,
One of the people who doesnt que for the mainstory roulette for this and several other reasons

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"Although we understand the impact that is caused after being removed from a duty finder group, please be aware that Game Masters will be unable to take action if a group member has been removed due to a player dispute, or if their game style differs (i.e. skipping in-game cutscenes, disagreement on using specific boss encounter tactics etc).

To avoid such incidents in the future, we would advise to speak with either the group leader or fellow party members when joining a new group to discuss any specific party restrictions that need to be addressed (i.e. any loot priorities, allowing group members to watch cutscenes etc)."

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That's just SE trying not to step on toes, as opposed to a policy derived from their own ToS. Tsk.

The way I have handled this (with new friends to the game) is to either find people in FC or linkshells that are willing to go through with the new players and let them watch cutscenes, or put up a party finder mentioning it is a cutscene run. These have always filled up in 5-10 min and then we go and have a fun time.

If you can find 1 or 2 level 60 players, you can run it unsynced, watch all the cutscenes, and not have a super negative experience. A level 50 healer can keep a level 60 dps/tank alive throughout all the fights.

I don't have a problem with people watching the cut scenes for the story. If you want to skip through it then that's what the dailies are for to be honest. Some people have a hard time patiently waiting for things to start up in the first place which is truly sad. why ruin the experience for them because you're impatient.

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Originally Posted by Krovoc-The-Destroyer

That's just SE trying not to step on toes, as opposed to a policy derived from their own ToS. Tsk.

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If you try to derive from the ToS excerpt you quoted, watching the cutscenes directly disrupts the game experience of the others members who want to rush - you make it slower and in the opening cutscene prevent gameplay altogether.

If you are consequent about the policy, queuing as anything but the current adventurer in need interferes with the game experience of others because you increase, rather than decrease queue times for others. Finishing a FATE or pulling a Hunt before everyone, their mother and their sickly dog made it there interferes with other people's game experience. Heck, standing around en masse in Idyllshire and causing framedrops disrupts the game experience of others.

Another funsie in the ToS that is CONSTANTLY being broken in hundreds of ways:
3.5 Naming Right. You may not use any name or other intellectual property belonging to Square Enix or any other third party in your use of the Game (for example, naming a character after a celebrity, company, product, or superhero).
Pretty much everyone named after a manga, game or TV show character violates the ToS. And Balmung alone has like 5 or 7 different Haurchefant impostors.

2.5 Data Mining. You may not intercept, mine or otherwise collect information from the Game using unauthorized third party software.
Pretty much kills parsers. Except it doesn't.

I don't think SE is trying not to step on toes - they just have a very different policy in practice than they have in theory, because the strict application of the theoretical framework leads to undesired results.

The last two dungeons of FFXIV ARR were unique in how they structured the storyline into cutscenes. It was appropriate when all players were new but now it's not.

As how to solve that, well, the only thing I can think of is to introduce a hefty bonus when running with a new player but disabling cutscene skipping. It would have to be something really worthwhile but I would happily take the "time hit" if I was rewarded (I do anyway if a new player is there but most don't). In such a scenario there would *have* to be a "no penalty" withdrawal option for anyone who is unwilling to sit through the cutscenes.

I think many more people would be happy to watch the whole thing if they got a bonus of 200 Lore, 50 Scriptures, 1k GC Seals & 50k Gil (in addition to what's already there). Sounds like a lot but if the run is taking three times as long as a quick lvl60 dungeon it's not that extreme.

Story roullete can be done in 3/4 people. I think nobody is having problem if you just afk from fight and watch cutscenes. I always tend to have player or two watching cutscenes while rest is clearing the dungeon. Its pretty common and normal and i think nobody is having problem with this.

Personally I always skip for dungeon sake and watch at the inn if I feel like I need that CS filled in.

I don't get upset when people watch CS but I do wish they wouldn't, it just adds so much time to the dungeons and is a poor game design. It's done much better now that all the long ones are after you leave the dungeon so you don't halt the dungeon or loot rolls.

The cut scenes are part of the game, likely most people in a rush took time at some point to watch the cut scene as well. This is always why the duty does not begin while people are viewing the cut scene.
I would suggest that people set the option to not re-watch a cut scene if they have seen it before, which also speeds up load times for you the player.

Unfortunately it was just a poor design choice on the earlier story dungeons. More recent ones don't have the same issue.

As part of a daily roulette, no one wants to sit through an onslaught of cutscenes every single time they complete the dungeon.

Both sides of the argument are understandable. New players have a right to watch cutscenes as intended, but veterans should also not be forced to suffer through them over and over if they do the dungeons daily.

I think the best suggestion is to create a Party Finder group for those particular MSQ dungeons to ensure you don't have any issues. Duty Roulette offers a daily bonus so random groups will almost always have people that just want to get through it as quickly as possible. Once you've experienced more of the game and understand how tedious this roulette can be, you may see that side of the story.

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Originally Posted by Konkonfire

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No issue with first timers watching cut scenes. What I do have an issue with is people not looking around at their party comp and deciding if you can do the dungeon at a decent pace. Can't tell you how pissed I am when I get a tank who wants to pull one pack at a time when they have a SMN in the group that is i250+ with an A12S weapon. Just b/c people are watching the story scenes doesn't mean the rest of the dungeon can't go at a decent pace. Side note though, if you want to watch the story people are a lot more understanding week 1. So try and run them week 1 if you are going to pug it and don't want people to complain.