Additions to Gathering System

If anyone has not read the recent and lengthy post on the subjects of the future of land/hand classes, housing, new features, etc. I have posted the link below, and after reading, would like to bring up some aspects of the gathering system not mentioned :::

Official Translation by Bayohne



In the future, would any miners, botanists, or fishers like the idea of having new special/rarer nodes found underground in cave systems, in appropriate areas, or simply in dangerous areas with monsters to avoid in order to obtain the precious materials?

The three gathering systems being outside (which I don't understand for mining to begin with), being at the same camps, the same leves, and nothing to diversify them aside from the appearance of the gathering mini-game is not an enjoyable experience.

The idea of continuing this pattern, starting with grade 6 in the next level-range area, around the 50+ camps, doing the grind again fills me with dread.

The system in XI with regards to location was PERFECT. Ifrit's Cauldron for the rarest ores, Mamook for the bloodlogs, and fishing was too diverse with rare fish for me to even exemplify.

The current system is the old XIV-style, and doesn't take into account the coming diversification of regions as well. The locations and environments need to make sense, and evolve from the "half-assed" version that was pushed out from XIV's start.

Mining should be in MINES (quarrying can remain outside), logging is working fine (but could use new aspects like a Boyahda Tree or Sanctuary for special items), and fishing should be more diverse than the grade 1-5 you must fish here formula.

Could we please move away from the camp-based system?


I am truly appreciative of the improvements to come, but want the gathering system to evolve to its true potential ^^




TLDR:
Diversification of the gathering system, nodes in appropriate environments, less copy-paste based around camps formula

**Edit** Bolded main point for emphasis, removed rambling ideas

*Bump* /10 char

These two quotes hit on the point I was making:::

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Yeah I always found it odd that Nanawa MINES and Copperbell MINES, don't have any, you know, actual places to mine stuff.

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Originally Posted by DrekeLamorte

Even if it were higher chances to gather HQ mats, or non-raw form gemstones, or exclusive one of a kind mats for ridiculous synths, or even just NPC vend option items, Copperbell/Nanawa/O'ghomora mines/Shposae/Darkhold/Toto-rak/Mun-tuy Cellars, all need to see some form of Mining.

Why? It makes sense. I'm sorry, I know. That's a flimsy argument in a fantasy game, let alone a FF game.

Okay, Okay. Fine. Leave those areas alone.

What about Coerthas and Mor Dhona? There's nothing in Coerthas that can't be found elsewhere, safer/easier. (Yes, I'm implying that safer does indeed = easier) Sure, it's grouped up. You can get the "good" stuff in one region, but there's nothing to require me to go there.

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SO, what do people want?:
-> Diversification between each class
-> Remove pointless gathering minigame, or replace with something fun that rewards skillful play
-> More dangerous areas possessing the more valuable and rewarding items
-> Visual cues for gathering areas such as exposed ores, healthy trees, visible fish groups



**Edit** Included quotes, started list of what could add depth to gathering

Not too sure about dangerous areas, because gatherers have sort of crappy time as is with avoiding aggro.

I would have liked to see jump/platforming/zone exploration as additional challenges for gatherers, instead of more aggro dodging and/or class switching to clear up mobs.

To explain a little further, I would like to have to have a combination of figuring out where a node is, platforming action, aggro dodging, and then gathering minigames (and whatever else works, without making gathering a pain in the ass) when I'm playing miner.

As a way to balance the increased travel and difficulty between nodes, they should offer more exp and items; or last longer than 4-5 gathers; or both.

they have no extra tools for monster avoidance, so i wouldnt make that thier thing, unless they design new monsters with a more avoidance heavy style of being dealt with. I would put more gatherer like mechanics and skills in the classes. You could have volatile ore viens for miner, that you have to carefully gather, Somethin for botany that could destroy your mats, maybe dealing with insects, and powerful fish that you have to actually do a more complex battle with to get.

Essentially they should try to keep in in the frames of gathering type of problems, and less in monsters, since monsters is something gatherers are extremely poorly equipped to deal with. And walking slowly is the most annoying thing ever. well maybe not as annoying as dying fast, but ehhh

As it stands, there is no experience premium for engaging in high-risk gathering activities.

Caves and nodes exist today that are aggro-management nightmares for gatherers. If you are able to sneak to the node or otherwise dispatch of the risk itself, gathering from that node yields the exact same experience reward as a node next to a camp crystal.

I say sure, go ahead and add "dangerous" nodes for adventurous gatherers, but also implement some sort of premium experience reward to acknowledge the additional risk involved.

I believe people are focusing on the examples I gave on how to change things up (ie dangerous areas for unique and rare items), and not my big issue with gathering, which is the copy-paste experience around camps for each range 1-10, 10-20, 20-30, etc.

Could we discuss that system from the "old FFXIV" and what we want changed?

First time I went to Nanawa Mines I thought, man there must be some sweet mining spots in here. Nope no mining spots in mines. Awesome.

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Originally Posted by jones6

First time I went to Nanawa Mines I thought, man there must be some sweet mining spots in here. Nope no mining spots in mines. Awesome.

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My first thought was when I searched the entirety of Copperbell Mines waaaaaaay back in October 2010 when my highest job was Miner and found nothing.

Seeing Yoshi recently post topics on changes, I felt I HAD to get some info out now, while they're in the entire process of rebuilding so a new, better gathering system doesn't get overlooked and become too late to include in the process of area design

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Originally Posted by EdenArchangel

I believe people are focusing on the examples I gave on how to change things up (ie dangerous areas for unique and rare items), and not my big issue with gathering, which is the copy-paste experience around camps for each range 1-10, 10-20, 20-30, etc.

Could we discuss that system from the "old FFXIV" and what we want changed?

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I'm trying to say that the experience gatherers are having now is not fun gameplay. I don't find the fun in playing a gatherer to be 'fighting' with a node. What's fun for me as a gatherer is FINDING the node, getting to it, and the items that I get out of it. Having a system that focuses on that instead of how many nodes I fight with is better.

Increasing the volume of nodes that a gatherer has to hit is not good imo. For example, if I want to gather 100 pieces of copper ore, I have to hit about 50 nodes, which takes about 30 minutes. Running between them is short, boring, and does not demand any skill or knowledge from me.

What if the volume of nodes was toned down? So that if I wanted to gather 100 pieces of copper ore, I would have to hit only 25 nodes, which would take about 30 minutes. However, the run between the nodes is increased in length, but more importantly, I now have to use my brain and my character's skills to find it and to get to it. Sprint, stealth, location/triangulation, jump, monster distraction, temporary stun/disable via pebble toss, whatever.

The minigame itself needs to disappear too, because it really doesn't serve much of a purpose. The item you gather is automatically determined at the end of the first step, when you determine the height of your swing. The minigame is just there to give you some chance to not gather anything, which can be hardcoded (but should not exist regardless. Failure should occur before the character even gets to the node, not when he's already there.). The real challenge should be finding, getting to, and selecting the appropriate swing height of a node, not playing that minigame.

Another thing I find weird is how each node is determined/set. Why can I only chop one tree and not the 5 next to it? Why can I only mine one rocky outcropping and not the 5 identical outcroppings next to it? There's no visual queue besides the blinking white light to denote that a place is a logging or mining point. If anything, gathering spots should have, in addition to the blinking white light, some exposed ore or a healthy/supple trunk and branches, etc.

I agree with the sentiment that we need to diversify the gathering system. Running around pointlessly to random point on the map and playing the same "hot and cold" game over and over again gets a bit tiring.

The addition of stuff like gardens should add a nice new element. I actually proposed that 6 months ago:

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Gathering is not appealing to me at all and needs to have more activities attached to it to make it worthwhile, IMO (gardening and potted plants for BOT, fish breeding in aquariums for FSH, and cock gardening or coblyn-breeding for MIN come to mind)

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As far as the actual gathering is concerned, I think it would be good for fishing to be more like an actual fishing simulator:

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

If FF14's fishing was a direct rip off of SEGA Bass Master or the fishing mini game from Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, I would so do it all the time.

As of now, I avoid it like the plague. It's just so boring and monotonous.

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Not sure how to improve the mini games of mining and botany, but something that is fun and rewards skillfull play is a good starting point.

I tend to agree with the idea behind dangerous places to gather. It should be that the more dangerous a place is, the more valuable its items. This fits in with the concept of rewarding harder difficulty with better rewards.


I think that if there are any special dungeons or content designed for non-battle classes, that they should have a puzzle-solving/platforming element to them that requires cooperation and teamwork to solve.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I'm trying to say that the experience gatherers are having now is not fun gameplay. I don't find the fun in playing a gatherer to be 'fighting' with a node. What's fun for me as a gatherer is FINDING the node, getting to it, and the items that I get out of it. Having a system that focuses on that instead of how many nodes I fight with is better.

Increasing the volume of nodes that a gatherer has to hit is not good imo. For example, if I want to gather 100 pieces of copper ore, I have to hit about 50 nodes, which takes about 30 minutes. Running between them is short, boring, and does not demand any skill or knowledge from me.

What if the volume of nodes was toned down? So that if I wanted to gather 100 pieces of copper ore, I would have to hit only 25 nodes, which would take about 30 minutes. However, the run between the nodes is increased in length, but more importantly, I now have to use my brain and my character's skills to find it and to get to it. Sprint, stealth, location/triangulation, jump, monster distraction, temporary stun/disable via pebble toss, whatever.

The minigame itself needs to disappear too, because it really doesn't serve much of a purpose. The item you gather is automatically determined at the end of the first step, when you determine the height of your swing. The minigame is just there to give you some chance to not gather anything, which can be hardcoded (but should not exist regardless. Failure should occur before the character even gets to the node, not when he's already there.). The real challenge should be finding, getting to, and selecting the appropriate swing height of a node, not playing that minigame.

Another thing I find weird is how each node is determined/set. Why can I only chop one tree and not the 5 next to it? Why can I only mine one rocky outcropping and not the 5 identical outcroppings next to it? There's no visual queue besides the blinking white light to denote that a place is a logging or mining point. If anything, gathering spots should have, in addition to the blinking white light, some exposed ore or a healthy/supple trunk and branches, etc.

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Ah, I agree with all these points. The minigame is pointless.

The idea of exposed ore, obvious trees for gathering, and visual cues of where fish are populated would make much more aesthetic sense. I suppose it would help if I clarified that when I think of the "right" environment for such gathering activity, that includes the area and what you mentioned, the actual deposit/resource within the area.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I'm trying to say that the experience gatherers are having now is not fun gameplay. I don't find the fun in playing a gatherer to be 'fighting' with a node. What's fun for me as a gatherer is FINDING the node, getting to it, and the items that I get out of it. Having a system that focuses on that instead of how many nodes I fight with is better.

Increasing the volume of nodes that a gatherer has to hit is not good imo. For example, if I want to gather 100 pieces of copper ore, I have to hit about 50 nodes, which takes about 30 minutes. Running between them is short, boring, and does not demand any skill or knowledge from me.

What if the volume of nodes was toned down? So that if I wanted to gather 100 pieces of copper ore, I would have to hit only 25 nodes, which would take about 30 minutes. However, the run between the nodes is increased in length, but more importantly, I now have to use my brain and my character's skills to find it and to get to it. Sprint, stealth, location/triangulation, jump, monster distraction, temporary stun/disable via pebble toss, whatever.

The minigame itself needs to disappear too, because it really doesn't serve much of a purpose. The item you gather is automatically determined at the end of the first step, when you determine the height of your swing. The minigame is just there to give you some chance to not gather anything, which can be hardcoded (but should not exist regardless. Failure should occur before the character even gets to the node, not when he's already there.). The real challenge should be finding, getting to, and selecting the appropriate swing height of a node, not playing that minigame.

Another thing I find weird is how each node is determined/set. Why can I only chop one tree and not the 5 next to it? Why can I only mine one rocky outcropping and not the 5 identical outcroppings next to it? There's no visual queue besides the blinking white light to denote that a place is a logging or mining point. If anything, gathering spots should have, in addition to the blinking white light, some exposed ore or a healthy/supple trunk and branches, etc.

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Hm everyones opinion is different personally I find gathering to be fun as it is now, I've dove into botanist, mining and some fishing which I find to be the most complex of the three but overall I find it fun. It's more fun when you have an objective behind it rather then just loot to sell, for me it's mining to rank up my craft classes and stock up on materials to me that's fun. While you may say the mini-game is "useless" but you don't consider that the mini-game itself had it's own discovery phase of figuring out where the "favoured" spot for each item was and the game itself made it easier by actually giving you a clue as to how close you were. Without that aspect people would have to hit in the dark of 10 areas and use graphs and numbers to figure out the % of which are is actually the best. But with the current system once you see "right here" then you have found the best location for the item you wish to gather and I'd say you would hit it 75% of the time.

I would honestly welcome changes to the mini-game to add more aspect to it, if you remove it then you pretty much take away the interaction of gathering that DoL is suppose to offer.

On the case of why can you only gather at certain tree, have you read the Botanist class quest or done them yet. They pretty much explain why it's done the way it is. -Spoiler- Pretty much it's about respecting the forest and trees and only taking the dead parts of a tree and what's needed. In a sense you could think of cutting a tree and pretty much knocking off all the weak and weathered parts of a tree to use as materials rather then focusing on the parts that are still living. -Spoiler-

But ya that's just my opinion I find it fun and I don't see it as a drag when I'm aiming to obtain what I want, in all honesty I don't think it should take 30 minutes to obtain 100 copper ore cause then you have to be doing something wrong. As the system stands now though, if you are just a DoL only with no craft I can understand why it may be boring, but if you add in DoH to the mix and level them together you may find it fun pretty much being self-reliant on obtaining the loot you need to level your craft.

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Originally Posted by Airget

Hm everyones opinion is different personally I find gathering to be fun as it is now, I've dove into botanist, mining and some fishing which I find to be the most complex of the three but overall I find it fun. It's more fun when you have an objective behind it rather then just loot to sell, for me it's mining to rank up my craft classes and stock up on materials to me that's fun. While you may say the mini-game is "useless" but you don't consider that the mini-game itself had it's own discovery phase of figuring out where the "favoured" spot for each item was and the game itself made it easier by actually giving you a clue as to how close you were. Without that aspect people would have to hit in the dark of 10 areas and use graphs and numbers to figure out the % of which are is actually the best. But with the current system once you see "right here" then you have found the best location for the item you wish to gather and I'd say you would hit it 75% of the time.

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I'm not saying I want the discovery part removed. That one is actually fun and requires some research or some figuring out, and it allows you to narrow down what items you are getting from a node.

What's not fun is phase two where you do the whole hot-'n'-cold game where you try to hit the cursor at the appropriate spot. The item that you're tying to get in this phase was already determined in phase one, and
this phase serves only to 1) slow you down/keep you at a node longer, and 2) give you a chance to fail at getting this item. 1 is stupid, and 2 can be implemented in other ways that don't involve a boring minigame. But there should never BE a situation where you fail to gather an item, after you get past phase one.

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I would honestly welcome changes to the mini-game to add more aspect to it, if you remove it then you pretty much take away the interaction of gathering that DoL is suppose to offer.

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I guess, but I still think that focusing on the journey to the node would provide more fun and flexibility than whatever actions you do on that node.

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On the case of why can you only gather at certain tree, have you read the Botanist class quest or done them yet. They pretty much explain why it's done the way it is. -Spoiler- Pretty much it's about respecting the forest and trees and only taking the dead parts of a tree and what's needed. In a sense you could think of cutting a tree and pretty much knocking off all the weak and weathered parts of a tree to use as materials rather then focusing on the parts that are still living. -Spoiler-

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That doesn't change what I said. The trees that I'm chopping down should then look old or diseased, but they look identical to the trees next to them. What's the explanation then for me not being able to gather from the trees next to the one I'm chopping now?

A good variation between the three classes could be something like:

Miners: get less nodes, but a lot more resources/gather attempts are given per node
Botanists: get a lot of nodes (can chop from every tree in an area), but are only allowed one to three gather attempts
Fishers: fine as is

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But ya that's just my opinion I find it fun and I don't see it as a drag when I'm aiming to obtain what I want, in all honesty I don't think it should take 30 minutes to obtain 100 copper ore cause then you have to be doing something wrong.

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It's an example with made up numbers man. You're reading too much into some of the things I say, and completely missing my point on others.

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As the system stands now though, if you are just a DoL only with no craft I can understand why it may be boring, but if you add in DoH to the mix and level them together you may find it fun pretty much being self-reliant on obtaining the loot you need to level your craft.

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Gathering right now is okay, and this is from someone who hates gathering normally. It's nice that they're their own class and that there's some depth to being a gatherer now (as opposed to none in other MMOs). But they could differentiate them further, give much more depth, and allow for actual skill tests in playing this class as opposed to straight up memorizing where the good nodes/items are.

"I think it would be good for fishing to be more like an actual fishing simulator:"

I think it would be good for ten minutes but with a simulator type system I think it would take to long to obtain a fish. But then i leveled fishing up to make money :/ silly idea i know. I want more danger around the nodes but with SE giving us stealth it's just not going to happen.

Aside from the separate idea of rare and difficult to obtain items which will likely involve an element of danger,
how many people actually like the tiered gathering around camps approach, with identical and redundant grinding for ranks?

Having multiple options of unique and varied places to explore and gather sounds much more ideal;
For example, imagine having the choice of mining in Ifrit's Cauldron, Sea Serpent Grotto, or the Temple of Uggalepih, and not be forced to the "you must go here for grade 5" camp?

Just a couple things that aren't directly related:

Not all mining is done in shafts. Some is done in open pits and such.

Probably a reason we can't mine in Nanawa (I don't know if this holds true for Copperbell) is because if you do the class quests, you learn that the Mining Guild has tight control over who can mine where. That's the only reason I can think of why nothing was added in these areas (or a lack of time in actually implementing nodes here). It would be nice for in the future after you've been flagged for completing one or all of the quests that you could actually mine in these areas since you've more or less been accepted into their fold.

I myself am an avid fisherman in game and did it a lot in FF11 as well. Aside from eventually leveling Paladin, this was the thing I looked forward to the most. I don't mind the current SYSTEM that gathering has, but I think it needs a lot more CONTENT. Right now we have 3 class quests, a guild quest to turn in x item to get a minuscule amount of xp, and the company turn-ins. Guildleves aren't even worth mentioning as content.

When they introduce jobs and the quests to provide them with the equivalent of artifact armor, they need to do the same for classes as well I think. At the very least, for DoL and DoH since the focus seems to be shifting away from battle classes to their associated jobs and DoL/DoH do not advance in that manner.

In terms of fishing, I want to see one or two more boat routes that you can fish on that have a little more excitement involved, (read pirates and other nasties) some challenging quest to gain a badass fishing rod (maybe this will be in the achievement system?) and anything else they can think of to make fisherman and the others to feel like more than just a class to supply items.

Shameless bump~

FFXIV Gathering: More fun needed.

The material surplus is hilarious.
I hope 2.0 completely wipes everybody's progress.

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Originally Posted by EdenArchangel

If anyone has not read the recent and lengthy post on the subjects of the future of land/hand classes, housing, new features, etc. I have posted the link below, and after reading, would like to bring up some aspects of the gathering system not mentioned :::

Official Translation by Bayohne



In the future, would any miners, botanists, or fishers like the idea of having new special/rarer nodes found underground in cave systems, in appropriate areas, or simply in dangerous areas with monsters to avoid in order to obtain the precious materials?

The three gathering systems being outside (which I don't understand for mining to begin with), being at the same camps, the same leves, and nothing to diversify them aside from the appearance of the gathering mini-game is not an enjoyable experience.

The idea of continuing this pattern, starting with grade 6 in the next level-range area, around the 50+ camps, doing the grind again fills me with dread.

The system in XI with regards to location was PERFECT. Ifrit's Cauldron for the rarest ores, Mamook for the bloodlogs, and fishing was too diverse with rare fish for me to even exemplify.

The current system is the old XIV-style, and doesn't take into account the coming diversification of regions as well. The locations and environments need to make sense, and evolve from the "half-assed" version that was pushed out from XIV's start.

Mining should be in MINES (quarrying can remain outside), logging is working fine (but could use new aspects like a Boyahda Tree or Sanctuary for special items), and fishing should be more diverse than the grade 1-5 you must fish here formula.

Could we please move away from the camp-based system?


I am truly appreciative of the improvements to come, but want the gathering system to evolve to its true potential ^^




TLDR:
Diversification of the gathering system, nodes in appropriate environments, less copy-paste based around camps formula

**Edit** Bolded main point for emphasis, removed rambling ideas

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I agree and it would go well with a reform in general of the gathering system.
Here I have a simple example of how the gathering system can be reformed with a lot of existing elements:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post506402

Problem with the OP's suggestion of having specific items in certain area's (ie 100's of miners in Copperbell) is that it will create massive rise in population to that part of the server.

This will effect the mini game latency as well as any battle classes who are partying there etc.

I guess this could be less of an issue with 2.0 what with each zone being instanced and servers being more powerful though, its hard to say.

Something I would like to see in 2.0 is the addition of actual node graphics, for example:-

1. Lump of ore (standard ore, copper, silver, cobalt)
2. Crystalised node (Gems etc)
3. Fossilised node (Bone, shell and alumen etc)
4. Rare items (low chance to randomly spawn in the place of other nodes)

The later being something comparable to a NM pop.

Edit:- Nakiamiie your link suggestion is awesome, but I feel it will never get the attention it deserves because there is too much to translate, I'm pretty convinced that they don't take feedback from the western forums very often. (prove me wrong community devs)

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Problem with the OP's suggestion of having specific items in certain area's (ie 100's of miners in Copperbell) is that it will create massive rise in population to that part of the server.

This will effect the mini game latency as well as any battle classes who are partying there etc.

I guess this could be less of an issue with 2.0 what with each zone being instanced and servers being more powerful though, its hard to say.

Something I would like to see in 2.0 is the addition of actual node graphics, for example:-

1. Lump of ore (standard ore, copper, silver, cobalt)
2. Crystalised node (Gems etc)
3. Fossilised node (Bone, shell and alumen etc)
4. Rare items (low chance to randomly spawn in the place of other nodes)

The later being something comparable to a NM pop.

Edit:- Nakiamiie your link suggestion is awesome, but I feel it will never get the attention it deserves because there is too much to translate, I'm pretty convinced that they don't take feedback from the western forums very often. (prove me wrong community devs)

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Actual node graphics would really make me happy as well. It gets tiresome to always look at sparkling lights, both for gathering and crafting. I am not sure why they decided to go for lights rather than actual items, WoW does it so I doubt it's a memory issue.

Thank you Jinko!
I do believe the community reps are doing what they: pass along every and all comments. My suggestion being a long and a major change, I doubt we will hear about it from the devs for some time. They need to carefully examine the idea, pick what they like and see if they can change what wouldn't work, they may even have their own reform in progress and may want to add some my ideas in it too and combine to that the other work that has to be done. So, before we hear a "ok, we'll do it, here is what the reform will look like", it may take one or two months and then another two months or more to see the actual changes.
The underlying codes for FFXIV are really complex and need to be changed in both the server and client, it makes things long and tedious. Also, bugs happen, we wouldn't want to play a FFXIV with as much bugs as Minecraft and Bethesda's games have.

However, the more people who see it, the more likely it will be moved to higher priority in the devs schedule. :)
Help me pass the idea around.