Chain pull.. is that bad?

I was doing my roulettes and got in a dng where you can take a bunch of mobs (big pull).
As i play pld im have flash and combo to build hate so i prefer to chain pull instead of big pulling.
Soon dps started getting salty about that and they told me this wasnt a good way of playing, and stuff. So then i spammed flash like a candle and made big pulls and the healer coudnt dps.

I dont think chain pulls are that unefficient, you just have to play in a different way and adapt.
But you know maybe im not seeing all the sides of the situation.
What do you think?

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Originally Posted by albertopin

I was doing my roulettes and got in a dng where you can take a bunch of mobs (big pull).

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By chain pull do you mean pull 3 mobs wait til they almost die, then let them finish off those mobs otw to the next 3?

assuming you can handle big pulls and your dps are decently geared and skilled.

The big pulls are faster because your elixir field or aoe's will each hit 6-12 mobs instead of 3. That's a lot of dps potential down the drain.

On the other hand if that's what you're doing I'm fine. It's better than a tank that pulls 3, slowly pulls the next batch for me to keep refreshing GL3 stacks

What do you mean by chain pulling?

If you are grabbing one group, standing still for a moment, then moving to the next, the DPS might be a bit annoyed because they want to put down ground AoEs and you move out of them every time.
If you mean pulling the next group as soon as the first dies (or almost dies), DPS might be annoyed because they have to run chasing any leftover mobs or were using AoE attacks and are still out of TP.

As for adapting, you might be right but many people are used to the big pulls and might not react favourably to a different strategy. And in my personal experience (as a SCH) I can get in some DPS even in the most ludicrous big pulls.

I'm assuming by chain pulling you mean pulling 3 mobs, stopping til they're almost dead then moving onto the next group of mobs before they're dead. In that case yes this is a bad way to pull. You're removing all TP/MP regeneration potential between pulls, lowering AoE dps, screwing up people's positionals and placed AoEs. It's not efficient. When you finish your pull you stop and you don't move until everything is dead, doesn't matter if you pull 1 pack of mobs or do 1 big pull, but don't stop and start. It's like walking down the street then stopping abruptly and having everyone behind you walk into the back of you don't be surprised when they start to get annoyed at you for it.

Chain pulling is bad because of reduced resource recovery by 70% while engaged, and contributes no increase in damage efficiency.
The party is still traveling the same distance at the same speed, or even slower then the same speed if you have a tank that is using sprint for pulls properly (not saying you have to just saying you can).
You are also effectively reducing the efficiency of the skill with the greatest diminishing return scale for pack size by 40% (Holy/Gravity) not even factoring in the increased resource cost (doubling it) to even achieve dps on 2 groups (which chain pulling really is, engaging 2 groups individually with reduced recovery time between).

There is no chain bonus for kills in dungeons to my knowledge so a steady flow of kills vs a whole bunch at once makes no difference.

Just wait before everything's dead before you go to the next pull. It's not much slower to wait. Alternatively do roulette with friends and pull the whole room.

Chain pulling is pretty much a huge waste like others have been saying. Its better to be the slow puller or to grab everything all at once. DPS buffs are better manged and TP and MP have time to regen between pulls.

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Originally Posted by albertopin

I was doing my roulettes and got in a dng where you can take a bunch of mobs (big pull).
As i play pld im have flash and combo to build hate so i prefer to chain pull instead of big pulling.
Soon dps started getting salty about that and they told me this wasnt a good way of playing, and stuff. So then i spammed flash like a candle and made big pulls and the healer coudnt dps.

I dont think chain pulls are that unefficient, you just have to play in a different way and adapt.
But you know maybe im not seeing all the sides of the situation.
What do you think?

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In Dungeons where people are leveling chainpulls are totaly fine but in level 60 dungeons like expert they are more a slow down as soon as you have at least one range dps in the party since every of this classes is capable of a good amount of aoe dps and its wasted if they only hit 3 mobs.

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Chain pull.. is that bad?

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If by chain pulling you mean "boss-to-boss" pulling, I find it not really worth it in this game. Why?

• In this game, most of the monsters are spaced too far apart, as opposed to WoW, where groups are often clumped together. If I have to run (at least) twice as far, just to pull twice as many monsters, it's not really worth it.

• Too much AoE. Stone Vigil comes to mind, but there's others out there as well. If I'm spending more time dancing around AoEs than actual tanking then that just makes it harder on everybody. Too risky.

• Lack of DPS, for whatever reason. If it takes (at least) twice as long to kill twice as many monsters, it isn't worth it.

• Lack of faith in the healer. If the healer is a sprout, no way in hell I'm doing it. If I inspect the healer and he's not overgearing the dungeon we're in it's a no-go for that as well. As one who has been on the receiving end of this, if my gear wasn't in tip-top shape and I wasn't very good me and the tank would never been able to pull this off, not something I could say about a lot of other healers out there.

• Lack of discipline. If at any point during the pulling someone else catches aggro - including healer aggro - for whatever reason it brings everything to a screeching halt, since I have to now go back and pick them up again, slowing things down and me taking unneeded damage before speeding back up again. Again, not worth the effort.

Basically, the only reward for doing that is bragging rights, not worth it in my opinion.

Ok, i get some points but taking into account that there are some advantages.
Mainly less stress of the healers, better build up of buffs and enmity distribution.
At cost of aoes (which can be delayed).

And clarifying its not that i take mobs at 10% health and then go to the next group. I only do it to build up hate. 2-3 rotations aprox.

Im gonna compare results doing both ways and measure time, to see what happens.

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Originally Posted by Joe_Schmoe

If by chain pulling you mean "boss-to-boss" pulling

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No what is being discussed is 'stop and go' vs 'stop and kill', gauging appropriate pack size is a separate issue.

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Originally Posted by albertopin

...And clarifying its not that i take mobs at 10% health and then go to the next group. I only do it to build up hate. 2-3 rotations aprox...

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2-3 rotations is about long enough for most buffs to run their course so it isn't quite as bad. That said there is only one class/job that would benefit from keeping buffs going and that is pug/mnk with greased lightning, and you may very well yank whatever mob they are hitting out of the way on a gl refresh skill negating the whole benefit of that unless you are paying close attention to them anyway. Because of their TP usage if they don't get that increased resource recovery they are either going to run out of TP or have to resort to switching to single target to avoid that.

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Originally Posted by albertopin

And clarifying its not that i take mobs at 10% health and then go to the next group. I only do it to build up hate. 2-3 rotations aprox.

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If the rest of the party doesn't know what you're doing that's even worse. It depends on the exact party make-up but as a summoner it is very bad for me. While I don't lose as much dps as other classes because the DOTs are still ticking it is not uncommon for me or even Garuda to steal aggro while the tank is trying to pick up the new mobs. For a black mage it can completely mess up their rotation if they don't happen to have a firestarter proc up.
I think casters and ground placement effects are going to be the worst affected so if you at least tell the party what you are planning then they can plan appropriately, like standing on the path to the next set of mobs to minimize movement and not casting shadowflare or regen.

The way I personally look at it, the DPS and healer affect how i pull. Let's say you get 2 NIN... Not the most powerful AOE, but tons of single target. That is a case where small, rapid chain pulling works out not only for the tank, but also lets the ninjas do what they do best, rip single targets apart. People are always going to be arguing what is quicker, I just tend to go with what seems more viable for the party make-up all around.

Id think it depends on the instance and the DD you have at hand.
Youd have to just weigh your options as you get it.
Like last night on my pld, i had wanderers palace, a healer, brd and blm
Needless to say i did big pulls very similar to the speed run era before because
yay pld aggro, and super DD aoes killed fast

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Originally Posted by Truefaith87

The way I personally look at it, the DPS and healer affect how i pull. Let's say you get 2 NIN... Not the most powerful AOE, but tons of single target. That is a case where small, rapid chain pulling works out not only for the tank, but also lets the ninjas do what they do best, rip single targets apart. People are always going to be arguing what is quicker, I just tend to go with what seems more viable for the party make-up all around.

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Great piece of advice. Let the make up of your party determine how you pull. Don't pull small packs if you have an AoE-heavy party, Bards or Mages. Pull more mobs if you have those in your party. Do smaller, "chain pulls" when you have single target DDs like most melees. Go pull the next pack shortly before the last pack dies. It'll allow you to keep everyone's stacks up for better dps.

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Originally Posted by Truefaith87

The way I personally look at it, the DPS and healer affect how i pull. Let's say you get 2 NIN... Not the most powerful AOE, but tons of single target. That is a case where small, rapid chain pulling works out not only for the tank, but also lets the ninjas do what they do best, rip single targets apart. People are always going to be arguing what is quicker, I just tend to go with what seems more viable for the party make-up all around.

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No, as long as the player knows how to aoe, aoe is better on every single DPS.

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Originally Posted by albertopin

Ok, i get some points but taking into account that there are some advantages.

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enmity distribution... I only do it to build up hate.

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For all intents and purposes, the amount of enmity you have and how it is spread does not matter. The only thing that matters is whether or not you have the most. If your AoE threat is sufficient in a 3 mob pull, it will be sufficient in a 9 mob pull and so on.

In addition, lets say a MNK is causing threat on 1 mob to go a little high because of auto-attacks and combo skill 2's while AoEing. In a 3 mob pull, you may want to give his target a little love. In a 9 mob pull, you may want to give his target a little love, in an X mob pull... etc. The point being it doesnt really change anything. you still may need to target his mob regardless of the size of the pull. The amount of juggling you need to do depends on your party more-so than the mobs.

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less stress of the healers....

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Keep in mind that healers arent particularly stressed in dungeon content. A healer may need to heal once every 30 seconds (and that is being very generous) in a single group pull. In a larger pull a WHM for example may need to stop a single button 'holy' spam and replace it with a single button cure II spam for a moment, so from a "user vs keyboard" perspective, it is very similar either way.

Chain pulling is also a cause of healer stress, esp WHM:
In a chain pull scenario, fewer mobs means AoE does less dmg per cast. As a result, more casts must be made and in turn, more MP is spent. Also, when traveling the pull distance the WHM will be in combat which limits MP recovery. Further still, the earlier mobs in the chain will become stun immune from the initial holy spams, so the WHM cannot rely on all incoming dmg stopping when using holy towards the end of the chain.

Unless you have a high-AoE comp, chaining smaller pulls is usually faster. This means you need at least 2/3 of the other jobs able to put out high AoE (look for MNK, SMN, and/or SCH with good gear). Also note, though, that you need to adapt to your group. If your group (healer included) is okay with huge pulls, and the mobs dissolve before you die or the healer OOMs, then you're fine. If it starts cutting it close? Slow down, because dying/wiping is slower than chain pulling.

BLM nightmare: You hit the group, he puts Ley Lines only to watch you running into sunset with the pack of mobs behind slipping out of his range.
Technically, if you have strong aoe in your group and healer can manage it, big pulls make it faster with decent aoe even if all you do is trying to keep aggro while dancing in a myriad of ground-targeted AOEs (Aery comes to mind).
If you have like two melees who have some aoe but not that much and having them to dodge all that aoe as well may just slow you down too significantly.

But the worst part of it is still that you put some stress on heals and dps because they're engaged in combat already but can't do anything until you stop... Which is quite unpredictable. And it may very well be you'll keep ruining their rotations constantly because one Very Important Skill which they planned to use cause they knew mobs have enough hp for this renders inaccessible at the right moment.