We always have threads for these on New Years, so why not, right?
As always, translations are amateur and unpolished.
Please suggest better translations if you spot anything that seems amiss. It can only help the final interpretations.
ENGLISH
Neath pillars of whorling strife,
founders the dross of despair.
O'er pillars of eddying life,
surge high the gales of prayer.
Flux and flow do the gyres,
joined by the crystal in thy keep.
Thy adamant spear bores steeps entire,
thy argent blade cleaves oceans deep.
JAPANESE
『渦巻く意思の円環の 底に積もるは 嘆きの澱
Swirling Ring of Will / Pooling at the Nether / The Dregs of Sorrow
逆巻く命の円環の 天に上るは 祈りの風』
Surging Ring Life / Rising up to Heaven / The Winds of Prayer
『流転する螺旋を繋ぐは 汝の水晶
Binding their Spiraling Flux / Thy Crystal
巌を穿つ金剛の槍 海原切り裂く白金の剣』
Piercing the Rock, the Adamantine Spear / Cleaving the ocean, the Silver Sword
GERMAN
Der Zweifel lähmt die schäumende Lebenskraft
The doubt paralyzes the frothing vital force
Er sinkt auf den Grund der Seele und lastet schwer
He sinks to the foundations of the soul and is weighed down
Die Hoffnung beflügelt die tosende Lebenskraft
Hope inspires thunderous vitality
Sie fliegt wie Gebete zum Himmel und tanzt umher
She flies like prayer to the skies and dances
Des Schicksals unabsehbare Windungen,
The destiny unforeseeably wanders
sie alle vereint bereits dein Kristall
already united within thy crystal
Er ist der felsdurchbohrende Speer,
He is the spear pierced into the stone
das Lichterschwert im hier und überall
the Blade of Light in here and everywhere
FRENCH
Au fin fond du cercle de la volonté,
In the depths of the circle of volition,
Les âmes déchaînées envoient leurs complaintes.
the souls unchained send their laments.
Au sommet du cercle de la vitalité,
At the summit of the circle of vitality,
Le souffle des prières arrive en terre sainte.
the breath of prayer arrives in the holy land.
La spirale des émotions et de la fatalité
The spiral of emotions and fate
Est contenue dans ton cristal de lumière.
Is contained within your crystal of light.
Solide comme la lance plantée dans un rocher,
Solid as the spear planted within the stone
Tranchant comme l'épée qui fend les vagues et l'air.
Sharp as the sword that cleaves the waves and the air.
Moose's First Guess at a Combination
Swirling vortex of will, at the bottom He laments in the descent of soul.
Spiraling vortex of life, at the summit She dances in the rise of prayer.
Emotions and fates in flux are as ever united within thy crystal(s of Light).
His is the spear that pierces the stone. Hers is the blade that divides the sea.
Now, if you've been following Hydaelyn and Zodiark very closely, this is almost entirely a recap and combination of all things previously associated with them. Zodiark is the Darkness, the moon, the force of Soul. Hydaelyn is the Light, the planet, the force of Life. The two are ever entwined and inseparable, their conflict embedded into time itself. Light & Shadow and Astral & Umbral are in all things.
The spear (of Darkness?) that pierces the stone..
The blade (of Light) that cuts the sea...
Who wants to take a stab at the deeper, more accurate meaning?
Interpreting the Rising Poem
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08-28-2016, 06:39 AMAnonymooseInterpreting the Rising Poem
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08-28-2016, 07:20 AMNalien
Hmm... I took the pillars thing an entirely different way, granted I only had the one translation to work off and these things usually have multiple meanings anyway...
I took the Pillar of Strife to be Garlemald, with Ala Mhigo despairing underneath their heel...
Then I took the Pillar of Eddying Life (The Circle of Life?) to reference the rise of Primals... Specifically Garuda, given the mention of gales and the upcoming new dungeons... Basically, we live to die, and thus we struggle (tying back to strife) and ultimately pray for some form of salvation, allowing Primals to rise from that faith...
I still very much see the story going down the "Ascians want a world without death!" route (with that also likely being how things once were), and that bias is definitely showing with this interpretation... The Circle of Life makes bad things?! Gasp! If only we could have a world without conflict and death! Everything would be better, right? Right?! -
08-28-2016, 07:47 AMZohar_LaharWait, so does that mean Sephirot = Hydaelyn and Sophia = Zodiark?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
Well, that aside, the only thing I take from this is that we're gonna cut up the ocean. -
08-28-2016, 09:09 AMZeno_McDohlProbably not? There's the 3rd Warring Triad, so a set of 2 doesn't make a ton of sense unless it was 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar
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08-28-2016, 09:13 AMFrederick22warring triad and hydaelyn/zodiark are different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar
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08-28-2016, 09:14 AMAeliott
All but the last 2 lines about the spear and blade seem to be general metaphorical tomfoolery for the cycle / balance of light and darkness. Given that the Warriors of Darkness are now coming to the foreground, I'd wager it's a reference to them. There's a clear duality. Pillars of life (WoL), pillars of strife (WoD), despair vs prayer etc. And this is somehow connected to thy (our) crystal of light. Hm... also
Thy (your) adamant spear bores steeps entire (pierces stone)
thy (your) argent blade cleaves oceans deep
We have...great power. That can pierce hard things :P
I find the French version a bit more easy to speculate on than the other vague ones.
"the souls unchained send their laments." - the Warriors of Darkness? Ascians?
"the breath of prayer arrives in the holy land." - we'll be travelling to a land considered holy? The end of the Dragonsong war?
There's a lot of spiral imagery, but the English version especially is littered with aquatic association words. Whorl, dross, eddy, flux, flow, gyre, oceans.
Wasn't the first expansion a toss-up between sea and sky (the sky being Heavensward)? Maybe it's a very vague nod to the next expansion somehow, assuming there will still be a water theme. Then again, it's _only_ the English version which has this, the others have no such theme.
Just tossing ideas at the wall :P -
08-28-2016, 09:31 AMFenralI'm going to say you have it backwards, and that the Ascians simply want to end all mortal life. There's nothing to indicate the Ascians give a single flying [kupo] about us, neither individually nor as a whole, so why give us immortality when, already, the only thing that can kill them is fighting us to accomplish their objective? Eldibus is not that noble, and Lahabrea certainly wasn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
I think it'll be more like, "You're all going to die anyway, so should you not die willingly so the original order can be restored?" It's the logical extreme of Louisoix and the Scions' ideology, and would present a conflict that someone might actually have to think about for more than two minutes.
Not that a world without suffering and death can't become some other faction's objective down the line. My money's on the Allagans.
(Also, Bleach ended last week, and, uh, yeah. We can now say that Tite Kubo did it. That's not a good thing.) -
08-28-2016, 09:35 AMMorningstar1337
Should we be expecting giant robots with drills at some point? maybe some pointed triangular shades for glamour? :P
There being aquatic references makes some sense. Gyr Albana is to the east bordered by an ocean and IIRC there are some bodies of water around Ala Mhigo.
Now I have a question. Does Yoshi always intends the poems to be a sort of puzzle. Something that requires all four translations to fully understand? -
08-28-2016, 09:37 AMPArcherWell, its also possible that, to them, these are the same. Death exists because mortals do, so eliminating mortals = no more death! Is that the truth? Can't say at this point (I mean, Ramuh mused about Light and Dark splitting when man was created...he was wrong, but still)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
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08-28-2016, 09:42 AMAnonymooseI had this same thought. English is, for all its clusterf[KUPO]kery, a very flowery language with an extensive selection of synonyms, each have their own connotations. None of the words chosen for English must be related to water, but often are used in relation to water.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeliott
Ever since that interview where it was said, "We had a debate - flying or swimming." I've been joking that since we have so much warning for swimming, there's ample time to include Blitzball. Now, the lead-up to 4.0 obviously wants us to think Gyr Abania is coming, and it likely is. But 3.0 had both Dravania and the Floating Continent; who's to say 4.0 won't have Gyr Abania and oceanic content? There are a few islands we know about (and many we possibly don't!). Thavnair, for starters. And what's with all these Final Fantasy X homages at Fan Fest? All things are coming up roses for that running joke, imho.
TL;DR
WE'RE GOING TO BUILD A BLITZBALL SPHERE, AND THAVNAIR IS GOING TO PAY FOR IT. -
08-28-2016, 11:30 AMAlaltusI think the Ascians have the same plan as FFIX Garland and Zodiark is Hydaelyn's counterpart like Terra was Gaia's. They pretty much spend all their time starting wars and trying to wipe out every living thing. So long as Hydaelyn and it's inhabitants thrive Zodiark will never be more than a husk of it's former self. Hydaelyn took Zodiark's souls/life so they are justified in any and all means. Or something like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
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08-28-2016, 12:41 PMRoclThey're always flowery prophecies with a lot of room open for interpretation but have some clues about where the story's heading. In terms of "requiring all four translations;" no. Nothing 'requires' all four translations, but if you want the clearest and most complete picture, you always want all four languages side by side. This holds true for just about everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morningstar1337
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08-28-2016, 01:15 PMNalienSame thing, that's kinda what I meant. I'm not saying the Ascians want to make everyone immortal, I'm saying mortality is a error Hydaelyn created and they'd very much like to undo it to get back to the good old days... I'm sure I've explained this much better in the past, summer heat is not the best time for braining though... Hydaelyn created a cycle of death, thus facilitating life as we know it. Like you touched on, it perhaps explains why they can justify the Calamities/Rejoinings; "You're all going to die anyway, so why not die in a way that furthers our goals?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
Where it gets interesting is whether we're mortal or not... Since 2.2 it's seemed clear to me that the end point of the Echo (or at least a significant milestone in developing it) is immortality... I would expect Derplander to be here to go into that... They could be the Warriors of Light from Hydaelyn Dimension C-137, where sh*t hit the fan... Everyone died but them, and now Hydaelyn seems stupid while Elidibus seems compelling...
I'm certain I've likened this to Final Fantasy VIs ultimate plot in the past... Kefka went on a small rant about how stupid it is to live and rebuild, only knowing we'd die eventually... I expect something very similar out of Elidibus and Derplander... Not sure who'd give the cheesy "Death is OK because... Love!" rebuttal though... The cast we have all pretty much struggled with death at this point, but I'm not sure any have come to terms with it as a concept... They seem more likely to lean towards Elidibus' narrative IMO... I kind of hope they all do... Then we can have Garlemald steps in with "HERPDERP CONFLICT IS GREAT! MAKES US STRONGER! WE ACTUALLY LEARNED SOMETHING FROM THE ALLAGAN FALLING AND DON'T WANT TO LIVE FOREVER!", and then we nod with a meta "MMOs without conflict are boring!", and then Alphinaud is like "WTF is a MMO? Nevermind, you're right! If there was no conflict we'd never even have met Ysayle!", and then we friendship-punch Elidibus back to the moon... -
08-28-2016, 03:42 PMCiliaThat's... actually not dissimilar to my current hypothesis on the matter, which is that Zodiark (the moon) was once its own thriving world full of life and splendor until He became power-hungry and Hydaelyn banished Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaltus
Actually a bit supported by the ruined Zodiark statue up there and the Word of the Mother outright saying that Zodiark is the moon. Makes quite a bit of sense if you follow a certain logical pathway. (Hydaelyn = Goddess = Crystal = Celestial Body (Planet). Zodiark = [Dead] God = Crystal = [Dead] Celestial Body (Moon?). Yes, this is how I figured it out like a year and a half ago, long beforeMinfiliathe Word of the Mother told us so.) -
08-28-2016, 07:43 PMCeasariaFor the french version : "Au fin fond du cercle de la volonté", it should be "In the depth of the circle of volition"Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
Another hint about the water theme, is in one of the interview of Koji, he said that Bismarck could be seen in the ocean too...
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How did stories of Bismarck appear in both Vanu Vanu and Sea Wolf mythology? How old is this story?
KF: It’s very old. It goes back to what I was saying with Phoenix, there’s one seed and it spreads and there are some similarities but in some places it’s different. Some places he’s in the sky, some places he’s in the sea. He might show up again soon, someplace. Where it’s beautiful. And hand drawn. I’m not gonna say anything else. <pauses for a moment> They’re gonna kill me for that. -
08-29-2016, 02:37 AMAnonymooseThanks! I didn't want to stray too far from the "literal" interpretation without being sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceasaria
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08-29-2016, 03:17 AMFenral
Japanese is the vaguest f[kupo]ing language on the planet. It's great for writing poetry, but terrible for anyone who needs to get meaning back out without filling in unspecified details. Nonetheless, I went for a literal parsing of it:
Swirling ring of Will. What pools at it's base are dregs of grief.
Surging ring of Life. What rises to it's heavens are winds of prayer.
What binds the cycling spirals is thy crystal.
Piercing the stone, a spear of adamant. Cleaving the ocean, a blade of silver.
I went out of my way to preserve the sequence of ideas in the Japanese, but it's still basically the same as the English. All that really sticks out is that it's the spirals (rings?) themselves that are cycling (reincarnating?), as opposed to being a spiral of reincarnation. Something to do with the fundamentals behind the Astral <-> Umbral cycle, perhaps, but it doesn't take a degree to figure out that much. -
08-29-2016, 05:08 AMmyahele
The whole swirling, eddy, spiraling body of water reminds me a lot of the WoD artwork.
It seems like they're surrounding a spiral light source (Hydaelyn?) surrounded by darkness. In fact, it kinda reminds me of the spiral that forms when you drain water in a tub/sink. Underneath that swirl, could be The Mother Crystal?
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08-29-2016, 06:46 AMZohar_LaharZurvan represents time, I think. Maybe instead of being based on the twelve or heroic epics, the Warring Triad were allegory for the mothercrystals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeno_McDohl
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08-29-2016, 05:35 PMMoonbird
The German version also has clear connotations with water. While the translation of Grund as foundation is correct, I should mention that the word is most commonly used to talk about the bottom of a body of water (at least in my experience). Tosend und schäumend also have strong connections to water (to be precise: waterfalls). This points towards Lake Silvertear. If I recall correctly, it was said that we would find out more about them before the next expansion. Also, the he likely talks about the crystal(s of light? whatever crystal the poem was talking about earlier) and not about Zodiark. I am assuming this because no other version makes any sort of reference towards him. If anyone wonders why a "he" is mentioned: the german word for crystal is a masculine noun. Although this ambiguity could be intentional and imply that the crystals of light are pieces of Zodiark, I don't think that is likely (or true).
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08-29-2016, 10:54 PMAlberelThe anti-tower is built suspended over a giant whirlpool of aether as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by myahele
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08-30-2016, 09:33 AMTenkuuFirst of all, is there a picture of this poem like there has been with previous ones? Secondly I find it interesting that the term used for "you" is "nanji". So far, I have only heard the Ascians use it, and the dictionary I'm using describes it as an archaic term. So is this a poem from the perspective of the Ascians?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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08-30-2016, 09:49 AMAnonymooseNo picture. In fact, it doesn't even seem to be a prophetic poem. The Wandering Minstrel simply says it to you out of gratitude for opening the door to him joining the play. Archaic speech makes sense, the Minstrel always uses flowery speech. As far as I can tell, it's meant to consolidate a concise recap of Hydaelyn and Zodiark's place in the cosmology. I'm not even absolutely sure that the Spear is meant to be associated with Zodiark, but it seems likely. The argent (silver) weapon that cleaves the ocean is most definitely the aetherial blade, and "adamantine" metals are often characterized as being dark if not jet-black, so based on the rest of the poem giving each entity their due, I would have to assume it is His representative weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenkuu
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08-30-2016, 09:55 AMBerethosThis particular part of it is tickling my brain, but I'm not sure how to approach it - the context based on the rest of the poem leads me to different interpretations based on which language it's in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
Both the English and the Japanese translation provided lead me to think of Zodiark (the Rock that is pierced by the spear) and Hydaelyn (the sea cloven by the silver sword/Blade of Light). That then conjures in my mind an image of someone set against both Zodiark and Hydaelyn.
The French and German versions, on the other hand, result in that section of the poem reading more like it's a boastful honorific of sorts, describing a stalwart champion who (in a less humorous sense) stabs figurative mountains and slashes metaphorical waves.
And so the itch continues - I'm not sure if I'm reading too much into the last couple lines.:confused:
I find it interesting that the item that seems to connect to Zodiark is not described as piercing the sea, and vice versa for the silver weapon - they both seem to be aimed at their own wielder based on this interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
Though it does also feel like the poem is describing a single entity wielding both (except for the Japanese translation which is non-specific, and not knowing any Japanese I obviously can't tell if there's a clue in the original text) -
08-30-2016, 12:45 PMJonnycbadHis is the spear that pierces the stone.Quote:
His is the spear that pierces the stone. Hers is the blade that divides the sea.
Hers is the blade that divides the sea
Sea= Silvertear Lake
Stone= Mothercrystal
Something happened between Midgardsrmr and Hydaelyn involving the Lake which is probably what the sea is referring to (sea is a more poetic word for body of water than a "lake"). Stone is an abrupt diminutive way to refer to a crystal that makes it sound less than remarkable (like calling Earth a "rock"). The blade may refer to Hydaelyn's warriors of light in a metaphorical sense, or maybe literally the blade of light. The spear may refer to the counterpart (so far not shown) -
08-30-2016, 09:30 PMAlberelIf I were to follow this reading I would think the 'adamant spear' may actually be the Agrius. The common tool for slaying dragons in Eorzea is the spear. The Agrius slayed Midgardsormr and pierced the bed of Silvertear lake, which broke the seal on a well of Aether (that may have been directly linked to Hydaelyn). I know I'm reaching but if the poem is referencing the events at Silvertear as forshadowing for us revisiting the site then that would be my reading of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad
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09-01-2016, 05:32 PMAlice_89th
I am not great with translating poetry (flowery language is beyond me), but here is a working translation of the Japanese version:
The bolded kanji have references to water, some more direct than others:Quote:
『渦巻く意思の円環の 底に積もるは 嘆きの澱
逆巻く命の円環の 天に上るは 祈りの風』
『流転する螺旋を繋ぐは 汝の水晶
巌を穿つ金剛の槍 海原切り裂く白金の剣』
uzumaku ishi no enkan no soko ni tsumoru ha nageki no ori
sakamaku inochi no enkan no ten ni noburu ha inori no kaze
ryuutensuru rasen wo tsunagu ha nanji no suishou
iwa wo ugatsu kongou no yari unabara kirisaku hakkin no ken
The dregs of grief pile up at the bottom of the swirling ring of will
The winds of prayer rise to the heaven of the surging ring of life
Thy crystal shall connect the ever changing helix
The adamantine spear pierces the rock, the silver sword cleaves the ocean
So like in the other languages, references to water and sea all over the placeQuote:
渦巻く - to whirl or eddy
澱 - dregs, sediment. read as "yodo" is is a pool in a river.
逆巻く - the surging of waves or water
流転 - ryuuten itself does not link to water directly , but the first kanji has a water radical and can be read as "current" or "flow"
汝 - again, water radical
水晶 - crystal, but incidentally the first kanji reads as water.
螺旋 - the first kanji is also used for edible whelks
巌 - is an archaic form of 岩 which can also mean "anchor"
海原 - the (deep) ocean
small notes:
- 白金 literally "white metal" or "white gold" comes back with both "silver" and "platinum" as meanings.
- 金剛 means an indestructible substance and can thus also gives diamond and adamantine as possible options, but FFXIV uses アダマン (adaman) whenever talking about adamantite.
- However this does make for a nice thing where we have the opposition of 金剛 and 白金 which both use the kanji 金 which is visually pleasing if nothing else. -
09-01-2016, 06:40 PMAnonymoose
Thanks a bunch for laying it out, Alice! I don't know much about connotation and was very curious if they were able to pack as much water in there as English. Curiouser and curiouser...
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09-01-2016, 07:35 PMMPNZSo, they're going to introduce Blitzball and swimming areasQuote:
Originally Posted by Aeliott