Pld Oath's on GCD

I was wondering if Oaths will ever come off GCD cool down.
i find this very frustrating as monk can change stance. War can change stance. yet pld and drk stance dancing is hindered by GCD cool down.

No. They should remain on the cooldown, because going from Sword to Shield Oath gives you 20% damage reduction instantly. When you turn on Shield Oath you instantly gain the benefit of being tankier. Grit, which also does this, also costs a GCD to use, not to mention almost 4 times the mana. Defiance, the only tank stance that is off global and doesn't cost mana has the downside of NOT making you tankier as soon as it is applied, you need to be healed for it to have any effect. It increases your max HP, not your current and also increases healing received, which again requires healing to have any effect. Meanwhile, you lose the 5% extra damage (and up to 10% crit chance) from Deliverance, and immediately lose a further 25% damage from being in Defiance.

War stances also have the downside of having a long recast. If you change stance you're stuck with it for a while. PLD/DRK can swap as often as they like, mana permitting.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

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Honestly, I would trade downsides for ShO for the ability to stance dance easier. I feel like PLDs stances need a rework anyway, they are clunky and very boring.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Honestly, I would trade downsides for ShO for the ability to stance dance easier. I feel like PLDs stances need a rework anyway, they are clunky and very boring.

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But you have downsides. ShO/Grit costs mana and a GCD already. What would you suggest as an alternative, keeping in mind that Deliverance actually offers nothing but penalties for a stance change until you get healed.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

But you have downsides. ShO/Grit costs mana and a GCD already. What would you suggest as an alternative, keeping in mind that Deliverance actually offers nothing but penalties for a stance change until you get healed.

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Anything more interesting really (hence why I said rework, and not tweak), we have downsides right now, but the downsides make for a slow and clunky stance system, no matter how good the effect of ShO is

Yes it is frustrating however it does not take a gcd to turn off shield oath which you can weave between your skills, for example. During the pld opener or anywhere during the fight you can do your hate combo then do your Fast Blade-Savage Blade-(turn off shield oath)Royal Authority combo. If you have desant ping you could also double weave shield oath+fight or flight for max dmg. Remember turning on sword oath only increases auto attack dmg.

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Originally Posted by Donaria

Remember turning on sword oath only increases auto attack dmg.

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That increase, however, is more than 10% of all the damage you do. You could argue that it's a boring effect, since it doesn't give PLD different skills to you use, like Fell Cleave for WAR or Blood Weapon for DRK, but it's a very potent effect. So potent, that I don't think there's many instances where it'd be more beneficial to turn ShO off, rather than fully switch to SwO. The only instance is probably when you're in ShO and your target will die within 5-6 GCDs.

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Originally Posted by Donaria

Yes it is frustrating however it does not take a gcd to turn off shield oath. Remember turning on sword oath only increases auto attack dmg.

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This is a good point. Sword Oath takes at least 3 GCD to pull even with simply staying in ShO and starting your combo one GCD earlier, 6 GCDs if you plan on using another GCD to get back into ShO. If you can't get at least 7-8 GCDs in before you need to swap back, it isn't worth swapping. But as Donaria said, you can simply turn ShO off, saving a GCD by skipping SwO altogether.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Anything more interesting really (hence why I said rework, and not tweak), we have downsides right now, but the downsides make for a slow and clunky stance system, no matter how good the effect of ShO is

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Without simply copying the WAR stances, I think the best way to justify OGCD stances for PLD/DRK is by removing the disadvantages of Defiance. If Defiance increased your max HP by 25% but also increased your current HP to remain at a constant percentage, i.e when you're at 15k/20k and turn Defiance on, you then are at 18.75k/25k, 75% health.

Either that or you're suggesting a complete rework of the stances of two tank classes.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

No. They should remain on the cooldown, because going from Sword to Shield Oath gives you 20% damage reduction instantly. When you turn on Shield Oath you instantly gain the benefit of being tankier. Grit, which also does this, also costs a GCD to use, not to mention almost 4 times the mana. Defiance, the only tank stance that is off global and doesn't cost mana has the downside of NOT making you tankier as soon as it is applied, you need to be healed for it to have any effect. It increases your max HP, not your current and also increases healing received, which again requires healing to have any effect. Meanwhile, you lose the 5% extra damage (and up to 10% crit chance) from Deliverance, and immediately lose a further 25% damage from being in Defiance.

War stances also have the downside of having a long recast. If you change stance you're stuck with it for a while. PLD/DRK can swap as often as they like, mana permitting.

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Why, in listing the delay to gain the eHP bonus from Defiance, does no one ever mention Defiance's delay also in losing the healing bonus from HoTs? So you need a Lustrate to be topped off instantly after, sure. But you can also drop Defiance after Regen and ride on a Convalescence effect for all HoTs applied before for the next 18/21 seconds, every time. The delay works both ways. Until the Vit change, the latter would usually amount to more total healing than the initial issue ever left out.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

Without simply copying the WAR stances, I think the best way to justify OGCD stances for PLD/DRK is by removing the disadvantages of Defiance. If Defiance increased your max HP by 25% but also increased your current HP to remain at a constant percentage, i.e when you're at 15k/20k and turn Defiance on, you then are at 18.75k/25k, 75% health.

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Again, there's as at least much advantage as there is disadvantage, especially as health margin and gear increases. If you want to "fix" that too, then go ahead, I guess, but I honestly think you'd be losing flavor on both the nerf and the buff. Or you could fix the missing 20% hp issue, and leave the HoT buff, but at that point WAR would have no reason to complain if DRK and PLD stances were both oGCD and mana-free, or kept some portion of either the GCD or mana cost but had no CD.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

Either that or you're suggesting a complete rework of the stances of two tank classes.

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I'd be cool with that. I'd prefer it not be done just for the sake of the stances themselves, since I feel like it'd be a great centerpoint for other little points of revamp, but even just changing either to a half-GCD, reducing Grit MP cost, etc., would be pretty great.

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Originally Posted by Donaria

Yes it is frustrating however it does not take a gcd to turn off shield oath which you can weave between your skills, for example. During the pld opener or anywhere during the fight you can do your hate combo then do your Fast Blade-Savage Blade-(turn off shield oath)Royal Authority combo. If you have desant ping you could also double weave shield oath+fight or flight for max dmg. Remember turning on sword oath only increases auto attack dmg.

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Every AA without Sword Oath is 50 bonus potency wasted, or a third of a Fast Blade. With the standard 2.24 weaponspeed, that's less than 3 GCDs to pay off against a Fast Blade, and under 5 to pay off against the average potency of your RA combo. Sword Oath adds 50/weaponspeed pps (22.3 pps with a 2.24s sword, or 26.2 pps in ShO terms). Your average potency per GCD spamming GB-RA-RA, 2420 weaponskill potency per tri-combo is 268.88, or roughly some 110 pps. Were you to simply drop Shield Oath to increase damage by 17.64% (1/.85), you'd make roughly 20 more pps over time (or, now make 130 pps in ShO terms). You also made 33.3 AA pps, which would now be almost 40 in ShO terms.

So, a 26.6 bonus pps total (in ShO terms) from dropping Shield Oath, against almost 270 potency lost for having wasted a GCD. To put that in the short-term perspective, that means it would take a minimum of 4 GCDs to pay off dropping Shield Oath with the intent to put it back up eventually, after factoring in weaponskills, auto-attacks, and potential oGCDs. Even if you drop Shield Oath just before a Goring Blade (+112 on GB, +26 on FB, +35 on SB, +61 on RA) with 3 auto-attacks in that time for a bonus 24 potency, you'd still be 10 potency short unless adding an oGCD, (52 on Spirits Within, 44 on Circle of Scorn, or 26 on Shield Slam.

The payoff for Sword Oath is almost identical with a 2.24s sword, at 26.2 pps rather than 26.6, or a 15.9% dps increase down from a 17.6%. Unless you're cutting the Shield Oath right at its pay-off point, it's better to stack them by swapping in Sword Oath as soon as possible. Because the weapon delay is almost certainly shorter than your GCD, dropping Shield Oath even for a Goring Blade rather than swapping directly across is usually wasteful, as you'll miss 50 potency (or 59 in ShO terms) from the AA without Sword Oath within that GCD.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why, in listing the delay to gain the eHP bonus from Defiance, does not one ever mention the delay in losing the healing bonus from HoTs? So you need a Lustrate to be topped off instantly after, sure. But you can also drop Defiance after Regen and ride on a Convalescence effect for all HoTs applied before for the next 18/21 seconds, every time. The delay works both ways.

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I think its a question of utility. Sure, If I happen to have HoTs ticking on me as I change to Deliverance, yes they'll benefit from Defiance for their remaining duration. But literally no one ever has waited for a Regen refresh to change stance. No one is telling their healers that they're about to swap to Deliverance and could they please cast their HoTs again? Anyone waiting on HoTs to change stances is unequivocally bad.

Typically when changing to your offensive stance, it's because the big hit is behind you and you're entering a period of less damage. As such, who cares about a 20% increase in whatever happens to be left of a HoT's timer?

Meanwhile, the ability to swap to your tank stance while the tank buster is being cast, have it take full effect instantly, mitigate the buster and then immediately swap back is something just about every (good) tank would absolutely wet their pants in excitement over.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why, in listing the delay to gain the eHP bonus from Defiance, does no one ever mention the delay in losing the healing bonus from HoTs? So you need a Lustrate to be topped off instantly after, sure. But you can also drop Defiance after Regen and ride on a Convalescence effect for all HoTs applied before for the next 18/21 seconds, every time. The delay works both ways.

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That boost to one Regen is incredibly tiny compared to losing HP when dropping Defiance or not boosting any healing ability when in Defiance.

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Originally Posted by Launched

That boost to one Regen is incredibly tiny compared to losing HP when dropping Defiance or not boosting any healing ability when in Defiance.

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This is what I feel the larger issue is with Defiance, and I'm 90% sure it was an oversight. During ARR, all healing abilities were %HP, so Defiance did in fact affect them. But come HW, Lustrate was changed to a potency heal, and WHM and AST each got potency heal abilities of their own, such that now Benediction is the only ability that technically scales with Defiance, even while a lot more of our crucial healing now comes from abilities.

Of all things, that's what I'd want to fix, more so than the 20% missing hp after swap. And if anything after that, I'd just like to see the damage penalty reduced to 20% instead. Idk, for whatever reason I like that I have to enter tank stance that wee bit earlier or carry my own Equilibrium for it. I like that the pacing is faintly different, and not just because the others are clunky.

Again, though, I'd be fine with seeing the WAR automatically gain some or even all of that margin so that no longer has to enter tank stance a bit sooner than the other tanks to increase his eHP, but at that point the WAR's got no right to complain about ability stances or the like on DRK or PLD.


For the HP lost from dropping Defiance, though... why would you wait until 80% HP to drop Defiance and return to Deliverance? If you're not going to have to stay in it for another upcoming tankbuster, you'll usually get your HoT (if there wasn't one up already) before you're topped.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

Typically when changing to your offensive stance, it's because the big hit is behind you and you're entering a period of less damage. As such, who cares about a 20% increase in whatever happens to be left of a HoT's timer?

Meanwhile, the ability to swap to your tank stance while the tank buster is being cast, have it take full effect instantly, mitigate the buster and then immediately swap back is something just about every (good) tank would absolutely wet their pants in excitement over.

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A period of less damage taken is not a period of over-healing-if-there's-so-much-as-a-HoT-on-you. And the more of that white damage is accounted for by those HoTs, the fewer healer GCDs are spent out of dpsing.

When that instant swap in and out comes at a cost of over 500 potency (PLD life, and nearly DRK's), it makes for a very sad pants-wetting. Defiance's dps penalty is harsh, especially when you add Deliverance's 5 to 10% buff against it, but it's not that harsh.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

When that instant swap in and out comes at a cost of over 500 potency (PLD life, and nearly DRK's), it makes for a very sad pants-wetting. Defiance's dps penalty is harsh, especially when you add Deliverance's 5 to 10% buff against it, but it's not that harsh.

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I was refering to the situation that was suggested by the OP, namely Oaths/Grit are off GCD. Which means instant everything and less than a GCD spent in your tank stance. In reality it'd probably still be one or two GCDs in tank stance though, just to be sure. But you wouldn't need to be entering it early to get topped off, and then stuck in it for 10 seconds because your tooltip says no.

Either way, there are some very real penalties associated with Defiance, and the proposal to remove penalties from Oaths doesn't sit well with me.

Assuming you're tanking most of a fight out of tank stance:

PLD actually needs 2 GCDs to get back to full effectiveness after swapping to ShO. Yes, they can drop ShO similar to DRK by just turning it off - but they started in SwO and eventually will need to hit that button again. However, it is true that it only takes 1 GCD for a PLD to gain 20% damage reduction at the cost of 15% damage dealt until you turn it off.

DRK takes only 1 GCD total to go back and forth since it works similar to 2.0 WAR, in that it has no DPS stance (Darkside is persistent so doesn't come in to play here). So DRK can turn on Grit in 1 GCD to gain 20% damage reduction at the cost of ~20% damage dealt until you turn it off.

WAR takes 0 GCDs to go back and forth due to Defiance and Deliverance both being oGCD. This gives WAR an advantage of +1 damage-dealing GCD every time PLD or DRK need to use their tank stance. Defiance increases WAR's max HP by 25% (but doesn't heal the difference) and boosts healing received by 20%, at the cost of ~30% damage (Deliverance + Maim -> Defiance + Maim) and healing abilities being unaffected by the stance. But (and this is pretty important) Deliverance also gives you +~25% damage dealt on top of 2% Crit per Abandon stack. This isn't even taking into account the differences between Berserk + IR vs FoF vs Blood Weapon, or all the differences in oGCDs between the three tanks, but generally WAR isn't actually getting a raw end of the deal DPS-wise especially due to one important thing: Unchained.

Unchained allows you to, every 2 minutes for 20s, be in Defiance and recieve all of it's effects, at only the cost of 5% damage dealt + losing the crit stacks from Abandon + a Fell Cleave/Decimate. Which sounds like a raw deal, but realistically you're gaining all this HP, all this extra healing (HoTs can even be kept buffed if applied before switching back to Deliverance), and all this extra aggro on top of not really being weighed down by the damage penalty. You can do this at any time that you have 5 stacks or Infuriate as well (5 stacks is better since you'd need to do something like Fell Cleave -> Infuriate -> Defiance -> Unchained which is 3 oGCDs which is probably not going to work out), barring Unchained is off CD and realistically you'll only ever want to be in Defiance every 2min+.

So, ignoring the DPS penalty, WAR doesn't gain it's extra eHP when entering tank stance whereas the others do and healing abilities don't get the bonus they're meant to from Defiance. There are 2 realistic ways of healing that missing bit of HP:

1. Equilibrium
2. Healer GCD/oGCD

Equilibrium, especially if it crit, would put you up to your max HP - however, by using it this way you do put yourself in a situation where you can't use it for the damage you're about to receive. But, assuming that your healer is pre-healing and all that then Equilibrium shouldn't be necessary for that and would be more beneficial in getting your HP to full from the swap to tank stance.

There's also the option of a healer GCD/oGCD (Cure, Tetra, Assize, Lustrate, etc) - with a healer GCD you're losing out on a GCD of healer damage, with a healer oGCD you're losing out on a healing resource.

There's also an interesting 3rd option and that would be stacking HoTs from some previous damage (Med2 + Regen + etc) which would need to cover the autos you're taking as well as healing you back to full. This is significantly less reliable and very situational, so I decided not to count it.

Now, about Defiance's inability to boost healing abilities, I don't really have an argument for that outside of "WAR has a lot of self healing so it kinda makes up for it". The biggest abilities you'll see affected by this are Tetra, Assize, Essential Dignity, and Lustrate.

So. WAR can essentially go to full by just using an oGCD 60s healing CD, can enter tank stance for practically free (5% + crit stacks + Fell Cleave), and is only realistically negatively affected by it's lack of healing bonus to healing abilities.

IMO, stance dancing is a bit inbalanced, especially for PLD. I think some changes need to be made and I think the best way to go would be to take all of them off the GCD and just balance around that, because honestly ShO/SwO/Grit just feel super clunky compared to Defiance/Deliverance.

nop never, plus the benefic of Shiel oath/grit vs defiance you are forgething one important think and is paladins and dark knigths dont have some skills lock behind the tank stance and another few in dps stance, paladin and dark knigths can use all they skills no matter the stance up (except blood weapon).

in other words PLD and DRK dont need to change stance at the same lvl as WAR need, a good reason is both can stay in dps stance and use a lot of defensives to keep it, but war only have vengeance, raw and foresight to mitigate in deliverance apart of the self heals.

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Defiance, the only tank stance that is off global and doesn't cost mana has the downside of NOT making you tankier as soon as it is applied

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This is always the argument against, buy why does it matter? Tank stances don't need to be 100% equal. Warrior has other advantages that easily make up for paladin and dark knight gaining that edge over them. Dark Knight manages to do fine on DPS without a direct Fight or Flight/Berserk analog, for example.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

This is always the argument against, buy why does it matter? Tank stances don't need to be 100% equal. Warrior has other advantages that easily make up for paladin and dark knight gaining that edge over them. Dark Knight manages to do fine on DPS without a direct Fight or Flight/Berserk analog, for example.

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This! The arguement against the change is "That would make PLD OP". Really? PLD? OP? In this meta? If anything, having the ability to stance dance into DPS stance would bring it more in line with the other tanks.

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Originally Posted by shao32

nop never, plus the benefic of Shiel oath/grit vs defiance you are forgething one important think and is paladins and dark knigths dont have some skills lock behind the tank stance and another few in dps stance, paladin and dark knigths can use all they skills no matter the stance up (except blood weapon).

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This is a fair argument, though realistically WAR only needs to be in Defiance to use IB and Equal when Unchained is up anyway. The extra 20% mitigation (on top of it not being flat 20%) isn't really necessary most of the time. An example of a 60s CD rotation for WAR could be IB + Equal + Thrill + Convo -> Vengeance + RI -> repeat. For shorter TBs you simply have to space things out a bit more. Regardless, though, you are right in that Sheltron and DA + DM (which are essentially their answers to IB) are available out of tank stance and this can make PLD/DRK tankier without costing themselves DPS. However, the main argument for oGCD stances I think isn't really related to that, but rather how clunky it feels to turn off and on their stances vs WARs - which, imo, is a valid complaint, it just doesn't seem like one when the only time you use tank stance is in your opener. Wait until 3.4 prog then people will start complaining again I'm sure.

If you make Shield Oath oGCD, you essentially remove the damage penalty associated with it. It then becomes an on-demand Rampart which only costs MP to use, and MP is a bit of a throwaway resource on PLD as it is. You now have a physical + magical sheltron with a negligible recast.

Deliverance removed one of the biggest costs for stance dancing on WAR. Swapping out of stance also used to cost you all of your stacks in 2.x.

The only problem is that, if PLD Oaths/Grit were off GCD, it would be a heavy buff to the classes, as they would be able to flick them on/off on demand. Of course, this would bring the classes closer to WAR's throne of dominance, which obviously the devs cannot do.

Joking aside, I don't know why they are still on GCD, the change is much needed when WAR has every advantage possible in the game right now compared to the other two tanks.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

The only problem is that, if PLD Oaths/Grit were off GCD, it would be a heavy buff to the classes, as they would be able to flick them on/off on demand.

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You can already flick Oaths on/off on demand more so than Warrior can "on demand" change stances; it's just every cost but immediate availability that need looking into. I would assume a limiting factor besides more mana would be used to reach the same sort of restrictions on Oaths even if made oGCD, be that through a CD, bringing in a new resource system for each that does not carry over so easily as stacks of Wrath or Abandon, using a psuedo-GCD like Meditation or Empyreal Arrow that reduces time spent while cooling (can swap instantly only once every so often, after which it becomes a full GCD and gradually cools down to a oGCD again), or even changing Sword Oath to a situational ability so that Paladin, too, has only one stance to swap into and out of.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You can already flick Oaths on/off on demand more so than Warrior can "on demand" change stances

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You can't do it during your GCD, which is the main limiting factor. Not having to trade a GCD for your tank stance would let you use it similar to a cooldown, which would be pretty powerful.

How does Emp Arrow work? I hear a lot of BRDs say it's really smooth, not sure what it actually is.

I think people don't seem to understand that Defiance doesn't give any damage reduction. If a 10k tank buster hit a warrior in defiance with 10k hp, he will die instantly while a PLD or DRK with 10k hp will only get hit for 8k in their respective tank stances and if a warrior switched from Deliverance to Defiance he would still be sitting at 8k hp which would still kill him. This is without taking into account and defensive cool downs. This a point right here validates why warrior's tank stance is more flexible as this one simple act of pro and con necessitates why it needs to be ogcd.

I think people don't seem to understand that Defiance doesn't give any damage reduction. If a 10k tank buster hit a warrior in defiance with 10k hp, he will die instantly while a PLD or DRK with 10k hp will only get hit for 8k in their respective tank stances and if a warrior switched from Deliverance to Defiance he would still be sitting at 8k hp which would still kill him. This is without taking into account and defensive cool downs. This a point right here validates why warrior's tank stance is more flexible as this one simple act of pro and con necessitates why it needs to be ogcd.

Here's and old post that I feel best explains why warriors have their stances off gcd.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Producer and director Yoshi-P here.

I understand that all our warriors out there are eager to know what patch 2.1 has in store for them. While we’re still in the testing stages, I’d like to give you a preview of what we have planned. Please keep in mind that warrior is still being tested in all encounters available in 2.1, and the following information is subject to change.

Marauder Changes

• Brutal Swing

  - Recast time will be reduced from 30 to 20 seconds, increasing the frequency with which players can stun foes.

• Overpower

  - Enmity generated by this skill has been increased.

• Storm's Eye

  - TP cost will be reduced from 70 to 60.

• Storm's Path

  - TP cost will be reduced from 90 to 60.
  - This skill will also reduce damage dealt by enemies for a period of time.

• Holmgang

  - Range will be increased from 3 yalms to 6, to make the skill more effective.
  - This skill will now pull enemies toward your character. *As of 3.38 this is still not working as intended, specifically in pvp.
  - When using this skill, a player's HP cannot be reduced lower than 1.
  - The animation for this skill will be revised. (See screenshot above)

• Vengeance

  - This skill will also reduce damage taken by 30%.

• Mercy Stroke

  - Recast time will be reduced from 60 to 40 seconds, improving ease of use.

• Thrill of Battle

  - Effect duration will be extended from 10 to 20 seconds.

Warrior Changes

• Defiance

  - Enmity generated by this skill will be increased.
  - This skill will also increase HP recovery via curing magic by 20%.

• Wrath

  - The improved healing effect granted by Wrath will be removed. Instead, the improved healing effect will be granted by Defiance.

• Inner Beast

  - Due to overall balance changes, HP absorbed by damage dealt will be reduced from 300% to 100%
  - Damage taken will be reduced by 20% for 6 seconds.

• Steel Cyclone

  - This skill will generate increased enmity.

• Unchained

  - Recast time will be reduced from 180 to 120 seconds, improving ease of use.

The main focus of these changes—as the seasoned warriors among you have already observed— was Inner Beast and its HP absorption effect. With these changes, warriors will no longer be dependent on a single skill to recover HP, and have overall improved defense.

To put it simply, we want to ensure the role of warriors as durable tanks. This is why we've also adjusted the effects of Wrath and Defiance. As currently implemented, warriors are forced to lose their healing bonus when using certain skills. However, these changes will allow players to use their warrior skills without sacrificing improved healing, and also maintain the critical hit bonus of Wrath.

Although warrior will no longer recover immense amounts of HP in a single use of Inner Beast, these changes should improve the overall defensive capability of warriors and the ability to heal them using a support class or job.

Patch 2.1 may seem a long way off, but please understand that we have to test these balance changes not only in encounters to be introduced in the upcoming patch, but all existing encounters as well.
(Please refer to a previous post for details on why we cannot break up patch 2.1)
While I regret having to keep you waiting, I am confident these changes, along with the numerous additions we have planned for patch 2.1, will be well worth your patience.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

This a point right here validates why warrior's tank stance is more flexible as this one simple act of pro and con necessitates why it needs to be ogcd.

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Warrior is still much more powerful than the other two tank classes, even with your point in account.

PLD/DRK need serious buffs and/or changes until WAR stops being a guaranteed party slot, but it's unknown if that will ever happen.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

Warrior is still much more powerful than the other two tank classes, even with your point in account.

PLD/DRK need serious buffs and/or changes until WAR stops being a guaranteed party slot, but it's unknown if that will ever happen.

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Agreed. Marxam, your anaylsis (while nice) is of a 1 for 1 on the two skills. Doing a 1 for 1 on holmgang and hallowed ground will tell you that PLD is OP, but that isn't the case. Making the oaths off GCD won't affect ShO in the slightest but will make it easier to switch into SwO a lot more, which will make it easier for the job to do more damage, which is the key thing that holds the job back currently.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Here's and old post that I feel best explains why warriors have their stances off gcd.

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This post is also from 2.0 and explains why WAR was changed, and does not compare it to PLD. It was also made before 3.0 skills (of both PLD and WAR), and before DRK affected the tanking meta.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

I think people don't seem to understand that Defiance doesn't give any damage reduction. If a 10k tank buster hit a warrior in defiance with 10k hp, he will die instantly while a PLD or DRK with 10k hp will only get hit for 8k in their respective tank stances and if a warrior switched from Deliverance to Defiance he would still be sitting at 8k hp which would still kill him.

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These numbers don't make sense. In this case, all 3 tanks would be @ 8k HP out of tank stance, and WAR would be at 10,000 in Defiance. WAR would get hit for 10k and get deleted, PLD/DRK would get hit for 8k (10k - 20%) and get deleted.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

You can't do it during your GCD, which is the main limiting factor. Not having to trade a GCD for your tank stance would let you use it similar to a cooldown, which would be pretty powerful.

How does Emp Arrow work? I hear a lot of BRDs say it's really smooth, not sure what it actually is.

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I just meant that as far as mitigation goes, you're free to turn it on and off every 2.5 seconds or less, whereas War will have to wait 10 seconds to swap back. It's damn near "on-demand" as is. It's just the offensive costs that hurt, especially for PLD.

Whereas Meditation just uses a half-GCD (roughly -- doesn't actually scale as such), Emphyreal Arrow uses the same cast and animation lock time as any other Wanderer's Minuet (e.g. casted) Bard skill but is technically off-GCD. So, depending on when you use it, it can function basically alike to either a GCD or oGCD. The best way to put it though, is probably just an oGCD with a double-length animation lock. So if you fit it behind an instant-cast, it acts like any other oGCD, except that being twice as long you can't double-weave it. Its cooldown also scales with your Skill Speed, which helps prevent desync or lost proportion of use.

For Oaths, Meditation would probably be the smoother example, e.g. mana cost reduction on Grit and each Paladin Oath costs only half a GCD.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

PLD/DRK need serious buffs and/or changes until WAR stops being a guaranteed party slot, but it's unknown if that will ever happen.

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or you know, nerf WAR, a tank how can survive without a healer and dealt max dps its pretty insane, sure SE dont touch the WAR now bcs they have a weak balance bethwen tanks and they are touching the parry now for 3.8 - 4.0, in any case whe need to have a global view of the other roles to think in what tanks needs, for mi view point PLD and DRK are pretty fine, they have they strong and weak point and they can dealt every conten witout a problem, WAR in other hand have the best dps and the best set of mitigation plus selfheals making the job the one man army thats is now, there is no balance in the WAR and thats the problem.

and for the OT spot don't matter if WAR was underpower compared to the other tanks, if they still have the best dps and those raid supports they still get secure the OT spot, to kick WAR for the OT spot whe need some changes in hem capabilities and a new tank how offer similar level of raid support.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

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I don't think that the post that you linked explains why WAR's stances are oGCD. It's referencing the fact that, prior to 2.1, Wrath stacks granted a bonus to healing rather than crit. Inner Beast represented a trade-off: either hold on to your stacks to keep up your bonus to self healing, or expend them for a 300% self-heal. 2.1 changed the self-healing bonus to be an intrinsic part of Defiance, and made Wrath give a bonus to crit. This in turn was later changed into a parry bonus with 3.0 due to the introduction of Deliverance.

You are correct to point out that WAR does not gain an instantaneous bonus in eHP on switching stance. The flip-side to this is that the cost of stance dancing is usually paid by your healer. Also, even in the event that you don't correctly plan your stance dancing in advance, you do have the largest and most powerful collection of instantaneous self-heals at your disposal out of any tank.

The biggest cost to stance-dancing on WAR used to be the fact that it cost you your stacks prior to 3.0, which could be considered analogous to the MP costs on PLD/DRK. This was removed with the introduction of Deliverance, because it allowed you to keep your stacks.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

These numbers don't make sense. In this case, all 3 tanks would be @ 8k HP out of tank stance, and WAR would be at 10,000 in Defiance. WAR would get hit for 10k and get deleted, PLD/DRK would get hit for 8k (10k - 20%) and get deleted.

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While you're right to point out that the numbers for Defiance look off, I think that the example was designed to illustrate that WAR doesn't get an instantaneous eHP benefit from stance dancing.

The tankbuster in the example hits for 10k after considering gear but before considering damage reduction buffs. If you swap into Grit/Shield Oath during the cast, the effect is instantaneous and you take 8k damage. If you swap into Defiance during the cast, you are still sitting at 10k HP, but your max HP is now 12.5 k. If you don't get topped off during this interval (either by yourself or the healer), you take 10k and die. This usually isn't an issue though.

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Originally Posted by shao32

or you know, nerf WAR, there is no balance in the WAR and thats the problem.

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The problem is that if they did this, the content would have to be nerfed to compensate. Non-DPS slashing debuff, a damage down that works on Darkness damage(Darkness damage shouldn't even exist in the first place), and burst damage from Berserk are indispensable, the solution is not to nerf what's strong, it's to make the other choices more competitive.

PLD/DRK have nothing to compete with in an offtank position currently, but off GCD tank stance might make the gap a little smaller.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

snip.

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you speak like WAR damage / tank damage in genera is indispensable to clear content whe the devs say already the dps checks are now made without healer and extremly high tank dps in mind.

i say nerf war like a option but i dont say what, the conten is already pretty easy to do, healers are pretty over at the level whe have a main healer and a off healer how only dealt some shileds X time and the rest is dps, whe have a lot of extra dps from healers and tanks already.

war is a paradox, a high dps tank but mitigate at the level of a paladin and vry close to drk in magic, self heals to the level to don't need a healer in may scenarios, infinite resources management plus buff slashing damage on 3 jobs at hem self and have one of the best raid mitigations moves, thats not a tank thats is a god, the str meta prove that and the vit meta chain hem a little and is still the best in everything.
my question is in this game whe have to work together to compensate the flaws of the others and move forward together, ¿how you compensate the flaws from a job how have none?

DRK is the problem with tanks, not WAR. DRK and PLD offer nothing together because they're too similar. DRK should have been its own unique job that worked with either PLD or WAR, instead we got something that competes with PLD and can only work with WAR. I really don't think copying the mechanics of one job to "fix" the others is a good idea, they should all be unique with their own advantages and disadvantages instead of clones with off-GCD tank stances, slashing debuffs and a % damage reduction debuff.

I don't think that stances are the issue.

Jobs in similar roles show variations in raid utility and individual dps. This is usually balanced in other roles by allowing a job which brings less individual dps to compensate by boosting your teammates' dps.

The problem with tanks is that they are differentiated on the basis of mitigation and individual dps. However, mitigation is pass-fail, so every tank is designed to be capable of surviving a fight when actively tanking. Having a mitigation advantage in a fight only matters if it translates into more time out of stance while actively tanking. If you can stay out of stance for the entire fight regardless of what tank you pick, then the highest dps tank gives you the biggest advantage. This is part of the reason why WAR is a permanent fixture in every composition, and why double WAR can be optimal in fights where the damage output is trivial or occurs in short bursts.

The other reason is Storm's Eye, and the fact that there's no incentive for NIN to use Dancing Edge with a WAR present, outside of not having access to a rear positional. NIN might as well not have the debuff. As a result, WAR brings the most benefit to both individual and raid dps.

To gain an advantage from a PLD/DRK comp, you would need two things. First, you would need DE to be dps optimal for NIN, irrespective of whether a WAR was present. Second, you would need a fight where both tanks were forced into stance usage simultaneously for a good portion of the fight (i.e. both actively tanking and receiving non-trivial damage) In such a situation, the ease with which you could stay out of stance on PLD or DRK with bonus cooldowns might translate into a dps advantage.

In the absence of such a fight design, it's silly to design the tanks with differing levels of individual dps output.

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Originally Posted by Launched

DRK is the problem with tanks, not WAR.

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"DRK isn't OP so it's the problem, not this blatantly powerful class"
real funny, this is why SE will never listen to NA forums for balancing

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Originally Posted by Lyth

To gain an advantage from a PLD/DRK comp, you would need two things.

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No, you need one to even start with. A reason to bring them that isn't "so we don't get nerfed LB from 2 WAR", which doesn't exist right now.

SE and SP are realistically too strong, especially for progression. NIN needs enough gear to outweigh needing to apply DE in a DRK/PLD comp and then you'd only be equal with a lesser geared NIN + DRK(PLD)/WAR group. It's doable at that level, so you could argue that it's balanced enough, but that comp's viability is completely lost in early progression. The only thing you gain from going DRK/PLD is access to both Reprisal and Divine Veil, which neither outweigh the loss of SP.

WAR doesn't necessarily need to be nerfed, though. You could give DRK and PLD unique advantages that outweighed (or equaled, preferably) having SE + SP from WAR. You could also make DE DPS optimal, WAR or no WAR, and that might round out the DPS inefficiency at least.

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Originally Posted by Launched

DRK is the problem with tanks, not WAR.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

"DRK isn't OP so it's the problem, not this blatantly powerful class"

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Launched thinks the problem is DRK because it messed with the tank meta and became too similar to PLD, when the WAR/PLD dynamic worked in 2.x. I however think you are both wrong, and PLD is the problem. The class has nothing unique going for it over the other two jobs, and has a toolkit that is trying to do too many different things that don't synergise (i.e too many situational skills that will never/situationally get used - tempered will, cover, awareness, clemency, divine veil etc.) and the job is trying to be both a wall and a support job (the more interesting of the two). To see what PLD should be, play it in pvp, where it is immensely fun to play.

As well as this we have the low damage output, clunky GCD, and lack of any gameplay gimmick (wrath stacks and darkside being WAR and DRKs), and we have a job contributes less and is thus left out of the meta.

im alwais find funny hor the WAR is supose to be the dps tank, with high dps, low mitigation and a lot of self heals, and then the have the WAR here with vengeance, the best of the 3 plus low recast, inner beast no recast only 6 seconds but up every time you have 5 stacks, in 2.x i find this 2 good bcs are a nice tool kit to compared to paladin, but now in 3.0 with raw intuition and equilibrium.

my point is now i see the tanks whe have 4 thinks, 1 personal dps,2 raid support, 3 personal mitigation and 4 self heals.

when
PLD is: 1 low, 2 middle, 3 high, 4 middle
DRK is: 1 middle-high, 2 low, 3 middle phisical high magic and 4 low
WAR is: 1 HIGH, 2 HIGH, 3 HIGH, 4 HIGH

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

These numbers don't make sense. In this case, all 3 tanks would be @ 8k HP out of tank stance, and WAR would be at 10,000 in Defiance. WAR would get hit for 10k and get deleted, PLD/DRK would get hit for 8k (10k - 20%) and get deleted.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

I think people don't seem to understand that Defiance doesn't give any damage reduction. If a 10k tank buster hit a warrior in defiance with 10k hp, he will die instantly while a PLD or DRK with 10k hp will only get hit for 8k in their respective tank stances and if a warrior switched from Deliverance to Defiance he would still be sitting at 8k hp which would still kill him.

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Sorry if I wasn't clear but all 3 tanks are at 10k hp in their respective stances ex, Defiance, Shield Oath, Grit respectively at the time of the tank buster hitting them in the example that I used. Spooky is right in this regard. I can't find the source but I remember Yoshi comparing WAR to PLD like driving a manual car and automatic car respectively. With warrior you have full control of your defensive and offensive actions and take into account when and how to use them. With paladin it's like automatic, you simply use a skill and the rest takes care of itself. Their tank stance reflect this with warriors being very flexible while paladin's being rigid.

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Originally Posted by shao32

you speak like WAR damage / tank damage in genera is indispensable to clear content whe the devs say already the dps checks are now made without healer and extremly high tank dps in mind.

i say nerf war like a option but i dont say what, the conten is already pretty easy to do

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<1% clear rate across NA servers and you claim the content is already pretty easy to do? So I assume you've cleared A8S with no healer DPS and mediocre tank DPS?

They said they tune the DPS checks for 85-90% of the theoretical max DPS you can get from 4 DPS players. Maybe there is some super-human somewhere on this planet without public fflogs parses that can accomplish that but for everyone else, reaching 85-90% of your theoretical max DPS in a live fight is impossible.