Miqo'te Male's Place in Society

Here\\'s what we do know:

The Seekers clans are led by a male, and that there are an additional few breeding males around.

Keepers clans are led by women, with a few breeding males around.

I can\\'t find anything else in the game itself that gives concrete detail on anything else regarding a male miqo\\'te\\'s place in traditional miqo\\'te life. If there was anything, then I\\'ve unfortunately forgotton.

How are they raised? What do they learn? Are all of them allowed to stay within the settlements, or are some cast out? Do breeding males have any other functions, or do they just wait until presented with a female?

If anyone knows of a source with the answers, I\\'ll gladly head over and read it!

If I remember in the Amalj'as beast tribe quest line you learn from the Miqo'tes in the Forgotten Springs that the males don't raise children. They leave the mother either when they get pregent or have the child (don't remember) and the mother raises the children by them self. Don't remember if they say where the male goes or what they do after they leave but that is one thing I learned.

The U tribe is the only example we have of traditional Seeker culture, but not too much in known about the Keeper's

However, if you did the Postmoogle Quest "The past is the story we never tell" we've been offered a glimpse of it since it features the Coerl King. Basically, it's unnatural for a male Keeker to have a haram ala Seeker miqo'tes. In fact, it seems that both sexes prefer to not be in each other's presence for too long. It's implied that males travel from place to place (preferable with offerings) stay there for a bit, have flings with those that are interested and then move on.

You learn a bit more if you search for the Miqo'te naming conventions forum post, but not much more.

In forgotten springs (30s questing in MSQ) you will note that there are no male hunter/warriors for the U tribe. There is the Nunh, and two Tia with eventual prospects of taking over as Nunh. Talk with them a bit.

In the Waking Sands (pre-mid-30s) you will find a Male Miqo'te Seeker (identified by the 'Tia' in his name) in the common room. Talk with him from time to time while questing from there.

I'm of the opinion that male births among the Miqo'te are few and far between, making them a rarity in Eorzea outside of the player base.

U'tykha at least talks as if he does go out hunting, not that we ever see it. He even invites the PC to come sandworm hunting with him. The assumption we're supposed to make, I guess, is that he always happens to be back from the hunt whenever we show up in town, not that he never does. Going by the societal vlue on strength, it would be stranger if a tia didn't hunt.

Unless he's referring to an entirely different kind of sandworm entirely, in which case... Ahem.

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Originally Posted by Ginal

Here\\'s what we do know:

The Seekers clans are led by a male, and that there are an additional few breeding males around.

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This actually is not entirelly correct - the information listed on this very forum for naming traditions actually state that being a nuhn of the tribe does not equate to a leadership role (although noting that breeding males can become the tribe's leader, and by extension, all males for that matter, very few in fact do):

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Originally Posted by Gildrien

Nunh status does not equate to leadership within a tribe, and in fact, very few nunh ever become leaders.

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Exactly who the leader of a tribe is in Sunseeker society is anyone's guess - I lean more towards the concept of a tribal chieftainess who rules the tribe as it's monarch effectively like the mithra in FFXI, but as the only Sunseeker settlement seen in the game is the U Tribe's village of Forgotten Springs, and which whose leader is never shown, take that with a grain of salt. ;)

Like Myahele said, during the Mail Moogle quests we find out that Keeper males don't stick around with their families at all. They have to bribe their way into a female's house with furs and meat and then can only stay a short while. Otherwise a group of women raise their families as a sort of cluster. Really unfortunate that a piece of lore that we'd think as vital to understanding Keeper culture is put in such an obscure place.

Basically...the males are there for breeding purposes. Both Keepers and Seekers; they just go about it differently.

Keepers are matriarchal, generally living in small family groups consisting of a few females and their children. Males live mostly solitary lives, occasionally traveling to these families for short periods but not staying for long

Seekers, on the other hand, live in large tribes consisting of many females, lead by a male (who is almost never the Nuhn. The U tribe is highly unusual in that their Nuhn is their leader). There is also one or more Nuhn, or breeding male present, depending on the size of the tribe. The Nuhn must prove to be worthy of their title, as every male wants to have breeding rights. However, the females still have a lot of power in choosing the Nuhn; if enough females like a losing Tia more than the winning Nuhn, they can break from their current tribe and start a new one. Its basically like a lion pride, where the females do everything, and the males kind of prance around looking tough and fighting other males for rights to the females. Males without a pride just wander around until they find one they think they can challenge and control.

So Seeker males, I think we can assume, are at least taught to hunt and fight. If Keeper males are meant to wander all their lives, I'll assume the same applies.

Do we know, or can we infer anything else? Are males of either tribe taught to read and write, for example? Do they have to learn tradeskills on their own, or would the women of the tribe teach them those? Do males even have any jobs within their societies besides being strong enough to mate?

Since both tribes of miqo'te are traditionally hunters, I'd imagine that males and females are taught the basics of hunting at a young age. Maybe other life skills (read,writing, etc) are taught, but if anything, once puberty hits they might not be taught nearly as much as their female counter parts since they won't be an active part within the community, but that's pure speculation.

The ACN guildmaster is male seeker and so is G'raha and they must've learned somewhere. Another seeker male is a master chef.

I'd like to think that strength alone doesn't = being a breeding male. That perhaps being a master crafter/gatherer/ scholar could propel a Tia into a Nuhn, after all, they can provide for the clan financially. Same thing could be said with Keeper males skills helping the households of different females he visits, albeit temporarily.

In the end, I really don't think they play any supportive role for a large period of time, especially the keepers due to their culture

In Seekers, we can assume that the Tias play the same role as the females. They can be hunter, cook, fisher, anything that fits their skills and whatever contributes to the tribe. To become Nunh is considered a greatest honor a male can get, so any male born to the tribe will be raised that they will be a Nunh. Generally males can only become nunh by defeating the current Nunh, or if they possess a quality that their tribe puts most importance, which in case of U tribe, strength. But if a male can make great contribution that benefits the tribe greatly, they can also be chosen as nunh. Nunh main job is only to breed, but they can do anything else if they so choose (tho if I'm given hundreds of women, I'm not sure I'd do nothing else xD )

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Seekers, on the other hand, live in large tribes consisting of many females, lead by a male .

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I seem to recall that leadership of a Seeker tribe is generally given to a female, and since males will only get enough respect from their clan if they're Nunh, I think it's unlikely that any Tia can be a leader without becoming a Nunh first.

For Keepers, post moogle quests tell us that males never live with their family. As children, males and females are taught the same lesson they need to survive like hunting, but with males are also taught that they have to leave their family once they reach puberty. Females take care the household, while males are generally adventurers. I think males can still visit aside for mating purpose, like maybe just for social visit. They just don't linger around in household too long.

Hyur is the only race confirmed to teach their infants to read and write and I know it's discussed somewhere that most people of Eorzea are illiterate. It seems to have changed tho, since Elle from Hildi quest once mentioned that Mythril's Eye newspaper has become well known in recent years. That said, I think Miqo'te parents generally don't teach their children to read except if they believe it's needed for survival.

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Originally Posted by RobinMalvin

I seem to recall that leadership of a Seeker tribe is generally given to a female, and since males will only get enough respect from their clan if they're Nunh, I think it's unlikely that any Tia can be a leader without becoming a Nunh first.

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I don't recall it said either way explicitly, but if you look at the naming conventions, its *extremely* patriarchal (females are basically "first name, daughter of Nuhn XXX"), which would mean that a female leader would be unusual, to say the least.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

I don't recall it said either way explicitly, but if you look at the naming conventions, its *extremely* patriarchal (females are basically "first name, daughter of Nuhn XXX"), which would mean that a female leader would be unusual, to say the least.

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That will make the nunh automotically the tribe leader which we all know is not the case, except for some rare occurences.

The patriarchal/matriarchal system of Miqo'te only applies to the naming, that is who they consider to be the 'root' of families. Seekers consider males to be the root, hence they put the father's name to the daughter's. Males don't have their father's names but instead they're given titles 'tia' or 'nunh' indicating their position in the tribe. While nunh means 'breeding male', tia seems to mean 'general' or 'other', which in my opinion doesn't sound awe inspiring enough to make them a leader. The two candidates of nunh from U tribe want to be the tribe leader, but they said they can't do that unless they become a nunh, which reinforces my theory that males can only be tribe leader if they're nunh.

The naming conventions may be in part to help cut down on inbreeding. While Seeker males don't keep their father's name, they will probably know who their father IS, and so seeing their father's name on a prospective mate is a good clue that they might want to direct their sister to another Nuhn. XD Keepers have even easier name recognition, and it's even more important, since males wander hither and yon it would be all-too easy for half-siblings to be born and raised far apart from one another, only meeting as adults.

Put simply...

Seekers: fight for breeding rights as a Nunh. There's one Nunh for every 50-100 females. Note that being Nunh doesn't mean you're the tribe's leader. Otherwise you're a Tia, and expected to fight a Nunh for breeding rights to prove your worth at some point. Otherwise Tia perform similar tasks to the females: hunting and gathering, or else strike out on their own.

Keepers: males have no place in domestic affairs, and wander the land whenever they're not staying with the matriarchal families for short periods of time (and have to bribe their way into doing that much).

... I'd not quite go so far as to say Miqo'te society is misandrist... they're supposed to be based on real-world lion prides, the Seekers anyway... but I can easily see why males would turn to villainy in light of how grossly imbalanced Miqo'te society is.

I thought the U tribe's nunh was their leader. At the very least, I recall talking to a merchant NPC in the area, who complains that the nunh won't allow outsiders to set up shop in Forgotten Springs, which implies that he at least has the power to decide some form of policy wihin the tribe.

I've often wondered how the Miqo'te avoid massive inbreeding. The sheer imbalance in their gender numbers means that by statistical probability alone, one Miqo'te male, whether Keeper or Seeker, would end up fathering a lot of children.

And seeing as how the U tribe only seems to have 1 nunh, this just raises my eyebrow even more.

That said, just because the Miqo'te have a lot of customs and traditions, it doesn't mean they have to follow them, or that they do. Plenty of Miqo'te now live within the cities, and they don't seem to adhere to or care about their traditions.

It's very minor, but I do recall one of the later LTW class quests, probably the lvl. 45 one, in which you craft and deliver equipment to various NPCs around Gridania. One of those NPCs is a Keeper woman, and she's mad that her order has taken so long to be fulfilled, claiming that "my battle-scarred papa" could do better at crafting than you have. There's no real indication of whether "papa" is really her father or just an adoptive one, or if he's a Keeper, but I do like to take this as indication that not all Keeper males are so distant from their daughters and families.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Keepers have even easier name recognition, and it's even more important, since males wander hither and yon it would be all-too easy for half-siblings to be born and raised far apart from one another, only meeting as adults.

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Keeper half-sibilings wouldn't know of each other, though, because the family name is passed down from the mother's side, not the father's. Like, a hypthetical male Mhaccaracca wouldn't have a son or daughter with that surname - the kids would use their mother's. So this would only be an indicator if they had the same mother and different fathers, and then it would be highly unlikely for them to have grown up away from each other. Unless each male keeps book about what females they have children with, I think it is neigh impossible for them to solve the problem pictured here... Besides, It's possible, maybe even likely, that several families have the same family name, but aren't really related to each other. Think about how many Smiths there are out there, for example. I know Keepers aren't a huge people, but the point still stands I think.
Or am I still missing something?


For Seekers, it seems unlikely to me that only males lead tribes. It just doesn't make any sense. Being the strongest doesn't automatically mean you are also the one best suited to lead, and the naming convention thread outright states that nuhn rarely become leaders, making U'odh the exception to the rule. If becoming a nuhn really is only, or mostly, a matter of strength, the male could, in theory, be dumb as a potato, and that's definitely NOT what you want as a leader (tbh, I wouldn't want to have that as a mate, either, lol... but that's not the point here). Besides, there are so few males, it makes more sense to at least include females into possible leadership candidates. It would just be so dumb otherwise...
So I think there has to be more behind that. Maybe Seekers don't care for gender, and really only choose their leader on the basis of ability. That would be the best case in my eyes and would include both nuhns and tias, as well as any female, in the pool of possible leader, so that only the most suited will get chosen. Or running the tribe might be mostly in female hands and the nuhn has a say in some matters, but not all. OR a matriarch and a nuhn decide together. Or, or, or... there are countless of possibilities. PLEASE, let the lorebook actually cover Miqo'te society!

About the matter of education. I think Miqo'te leading a traditional livestyle might not really be highly educated no matter the gender. If it's not necessary to survive, then maybe they just don't see how that would be important. Both genders have to learn how to fight and defend themselfes, though, males if only to one day beat the nuhn. But I think it was pointed out several times by now that there are hints of tias hunting, so... and for Keepers it would be very weird to send your son out to live on his own without him knowing how to survive in the wild. As long as that's not their first test if they are really suitable to breed, that is... but that's a bit too hardcore for my liking and I hope not the case.
Once again, I don't see why tias shouldn't be part of tribe live. the ones in the springs, at least, seem to be well regarded by the females, even teaching one of them how to hunt iirc. For me, that doesn't sound like they are excluded at all.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

...they're supposed to be based on real-world lion prides, the Seekers anyway... but I can easily see why males would turn to villainy in light of how grossly imbalanced Miqo'te society is.

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That's the impression I got from Seekers society as well, with one alpha male having the right to breed but the ones doing and leading the hunting are females.

Keepers society looks like how other cats live, living solitary lives especially the males.

The only Mi'qote villains I see so far are all from Keepers. Coeurl King is an anomally among male Keepers, since he seems trying to emulate Seekers lifestyle with him as king instead of nunh. The ones from archer's questline are also Keepers, apparently a group of Keepers who refuse to accept the elemental's law and turned to poaching and banditry to survive, not to mention all of them are females.

What you call imbalance to their society seems for me to be simply a necessity. Their gene pool favors giving them females than males, so their society is based upon the need to keep their race from dying out. Seekers want their next generation to be strong, so the competition for nunh position is to ensure only the strongest to give birth to children. Keepers also the same, but instead of making males compete for the right to breed, they have them wander so no males will compete for females, and potentially spread their race further beyond their territory. It's part of their culture, and like any culture, it's there for good reason. Rebels will still exist, but that's common thing to happen within any culture and that doesn't necessarily make the culture wrong.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Once again, I don't see why tias shouldn't be part of tribe live. the ones in the springs, at least, seem to be well regarded by the females, even teaching one of them how to hunt iirc. For me, that doesn't sound like they are excluded at all.

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It seems to me tias can do anything but to breed OR lead, since the male Miqo'te NPCs we see in Springs want to be leader, one of them outright said he wants to open Forgotten Springs to the outsider, something that the current nunh and leader U'odh objects. If he wants to change that rule he has to be a leader, and to be a leader, he has to beat the U’odh first, effectively becoming nunh himself. Leader position may be open to anyone in tribe regardless of gender, but for males, they need to be nunh first.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

The naming conventions may be in part to help cut down on inbreeding.

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I will refrain from imposing RL rules to fantasy world, especially to a society that is entirely not based on human's society. Their concept of inbreeding or incest may be totally different than ours, with the fact that Y chromosome seems to be a rare trait among them. In my headcanon theory males both Seekers and Keepers will not breed with mother or their sisters from same mother, but others are fair game.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

the information listed on this very forum for naming traditions actually state that being a nuhn of the tribe does not equate to a leadership role

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It's not quite that straightforward, though, because the naming conventions say the title doesn't confer leadership, yet in the only clan we've seen, both the Nunh and the two Tias hoping to take over clearly do equate the "Nunh" title with leadership.

Now, it's possible that's a U-clan specific thing, and not widespread among other Seeker clans, (though it seems a bit odd that an atypical clan is the only one we're directly shown in-game). If the genders are socially separate enough, though, it could also be explained by the Nunh being a leader of the tribe's males, while the (more numerous) females would have their own leader who would generally be regarded as the overall leader of the clan. That would make a Nuhn a leader within the clan, but not generally the leader of the clan.

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Originally Posted by RobinMalvin

The only Mi'qote villains I see so far are all from Keepers.

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There's also H'raha Tia (yes, I know :() from the monk storyline who seems to exist just to break the "evil catmen are always Keepers" mold.

They seem to have a maternal attitude indeed. given that Flhaminn adopted and raised minfilia

Given F'hlaminn's rather unique relationship to the death of Minfilia's father (which made her an orphan in a foreign land, no less) I'd be careful about using their relationship as a broad brush for miqo'te society.

I came across this odd tidbit when doing levequests in Quarrymill.

http://i.imgur.com/tgNxJfM.png

So do some Keepers also have designated breeding males like Seekers do?
Maybe some Keepers start keeping breeding males when they permanently settle in towns?
Or is this awkward wording where they meant a male suitor?

The other way to read it is that a male got caught in the trap while breeding. That would be a painfully disappointing way to end it; of course, he might have decided to soldier on and the amputation was the result of delayed medical treatment. If so, I salute the brave soul for his commitment. At any rate, I do not recommended breeding in fields.

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Originally Posted by Warr_of_Lint

Or is this awkward wording where they meant a male suitor?

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I assume this.

Males out on their own wouldn't be considered to be "breeding males" since they aren't currently with any females. Looking for them, probably, but they don't currently have anyone to breed with. If a male is staying with a group of females, he's there to, well, breed, and thus is a "breeding male".

That sounds more like the concept of roving males that certain pack animals have.

Also, I was under the impression the U tribe was an oddity in that their leader is a Nuhn, but looking at who the Nuhn is and his accomplishments, it's no surprise he earned the title of both cheif and nuhn. He's wise, worldly, has experience working with people from his company of heroes membership, and defeated a primal and survived to tell the tale.

Consideting the U have tempered and violent Almaljaa as neighbors, and that many women in their tribe have been taken to be added to the tempered army (as shown in the beast tribe quests), having a man with experience of that ilk would fit the bill of the top roles of the tribe with little question.

Maybe the U tribe has a tradition of males being the leader of the U tribe of Forgotten Springs? I recall in last year's Little Ladies event that there was a doll of a Seeker miqo'te male, though I forgot what his contribution(s) were to be recognized to be recognized enough to have a doll alongside the founding members of the guilds, PLDs and the Sultana/sultan

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Originally Posted by Warr_of_Lint

So do some Keepers also have designated breeding males like Seekers do?
Maybe some Keepers start keeping breeding males when they permanently settle in towns?
Or is this awkward wording where they meant a male suitor?

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I was under the impression it just meant a male Seeker of breeding age who was doing the whole "roaming about between the ladies" thing, as opposed to a young one who was still living with his mother or an elderly one who may have retired to live with a fond sister.

Speaking of fond sisters, I'm still wondering what happened with Kipih Jakkya and her little brother;

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Originally Posted by The Raven

Kipih Jakkya here, bright-eyed and sharp-eared, filing her latest report on the numerous threats to Eorzea and how we may find deliverance from destruction.

Before I begin, I must announce, with great regret, that this will be my final report—the last of last words. As the specter of war and chaos spreads throughout the land, I find it harder to guarantee my safety and—more importantly—that of my little brother. I intend to take him far away, to wherever we may yet find refuge.

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She survived, she turned up to report on the Lightning event, but I'd love to know what happened to him.

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Originally Posted by Warr_of_Lint

The other way to read it is that a male got caught in the trap while breeding.

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As much as I would love to pay and see that happen ( :cool: ), I agree with PArcher that it means suitor. Maybe the term means males that are going in process to woe females. We know that male Keepers need to give gifts to females if they want to breed, and I imagine the presents will be something that proves his worth i.e strength, so the unfortunate male mentioned above perhaps was on his way to hunt some game as gifts, but got caught in trap. Or maybe Keepers just like it 'wild' xD

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Originally Posted by myahele

Maybe the U tribe has a tradition of males being the leader of the U tribe of Forgotten Springs?

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I recall there was NPC in Springs that said that U'odh being both nunh and leader isn't something usual, tho for the love of me I can't find any NPC saying that now, so I think it was mentioned during quests.

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Originally Posted by Warr_of_Lint

That would be a painfully disappointing way to end it; of course, he might have decided to soldier on and the amputation was the result of delayed medical treatment. If so, I salute the brave soul for his commitment.

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Concerned Female: You know, I really think you should see a doctor. We can do this later, I promise!
Determined Male: NO! I WILL SEE THIS THROUGH TO THE END!
Concerned Female: Seriously, it's kind of a turn-off. There's blood everywhere!
Determined Male: IT IS MY SACRED DUTY!!!

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

I was under the impression the U tribe was an oddity in that their leader is a Nuhn, but looking at who the Nuhn is and his accomplishments, it's no surprise he earned the title of both cheif and nuhn. He's wise, worldly, has experience working with people from his company of heroes membership, and defeated a primal and survived to tell the tale.

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If it were just about his personal strength and accomplishments overriding the usual tendency for Nuhn and leadership to be separate, then it would likely only last while U'odh himself is Nuhn. Yet the two Tias hoping to succeed him both seem to expect that leadership role to be passed down to his successor as well. Their reasons for wanting the title (at least the reasons they express) have to do with wanting greater influence on the tribe's political decisions rather than wanting the chance to breed with the U clan's ladies.