Does this really even make sense anymore, your telling me three "civilized nations" in an ALLIANCE can't part three contested territories, one which is an island (limsa), one that borders uldah, and one that borders gridania. Pls SE now is a chance to break free of gc pvp lore.
Civilized Conflict
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08-01-2016, 05:51 AMMiraKershawCivilized Conflict
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08-01-2016, 05:54 AMAstrid_Stormborn
Admittedly you probably already know, but isn't the argument about the territories more about ownership of the Allagan ruins and relics contained in the areas in question?
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08-01-2016, 05:55 AMNaria
Uh this kinda seems like it belongs more in the PVP or general forum since you seem to be complaining about lore effecting game play, instead of discussing it.
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08-01-2016, 05:58 AMMiraKershaw
I mean your telling me each nation is greedy enough to want all the relics in all areas, so they can just share the information they get with their allies? Lol
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08-01-2016, 06:03 AMWhiteArchmage
As said above, the conflict isn't so much about the TERRITORY but the RELICS in there. Any argument about how to properly handle the artifacts between the three nations would devolve into "no, MY country is best equipped to study these allagan artifacts" and no one really dies in the first place so it's also about keeping the GCs sharp in the case of an invasion. The Alliance isn't particularily expansionist and an army that isn't kept well trained regularily starts to go rusty, and I don't think anyone wants that in the case of the next garlean invasion.
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08-01-2016, 06:06 AMNariaWell they could, but then frontlines wouldn't exist. They would have to completely redo the backstory for ally vs ally PVP if the Alliance hashed things out diplomatically. It would end up being more like a large scale Wolves' Den, probably in a manufactured arena/zone as well. If the frontlines areas are no longer being contested they could be put to much better use (like actually researching Allag). Since GC restrictions seem to be a big complaint for pvp maybe they will do something like that going forward for new zones, however, I don't think they will ever change how the current PVP zones work.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiraKershaw
. . . but hey, I could be wrong.
Edit:
Historically the the City states haven't ever been very friendly to each other. They are capable of acting as a unit for the united good, particularly when they have a common enemy like Garlemald or Ala Mhigo. Reluctantly. -
08-01-2016, 06:18 AMMiraKershawPerhaps but an army that is exhausted and using lots of supplies for a "friendly fight", we use airships to get to all these locations using fuel and manpower there, while the garleans are literally on our doorstep, in some cases inside our land, why would the nations want to send their BEST soldiers to fight some conflict that would be solved diplomatically.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage
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08-01-2016, 07:03 AMVargasVermillionGood point, if they really wanted to hone their skills they would be pushing those castrums off of eorzean soil.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiraKershaw
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08-01-2016, 10:57 AMNalienWhich would be a good thing... SE wasted two years developing Frontlines for no well explained reason... Don't take that as PvP hate either, I like PvP in this game, but Frontlines has been handled terribly and at this point it's just wasted resources... They could salvage it, but I don't even want them to at this point... Frontlines and Wolves Den are two vastly different games, and I'd much rather they focus on Wolves Den at this point... They probably have another Frontlines map set up for 4.0 though, then we'll have 4/5 maps that are dead instead of the current 3/4... It utterly blows my mind that they continue to waste development resources on Frontlines...Quote:
Originally Posted by Naria
In theory, I should love Frontlines, but SE has utterly failed to create factions in this game... The Grand Companies could be removed from the game with very little impact and just replaced with the Alliance, compare that to Final Fantasy XI, where it would be virtually impossible to remove its three factions... The cities themselves are distinct enough, but the factions were just seemingly tacked on in 1.x because "MMOs have to have factions!", and SE put no more effort into them than ticking factions off the to-do list... Hopefully 3.4 fixes that, given we're getting new Grand Company ranks/gear/stuff/etc., but I wont hold my breath... They've failed to implement factions effectively in this game so far, and as a result their faction PvP is an utter mess... That the lore behind faction PvP is so shifty is just icing on this particularly disappointing cake...
It's kind of sad really, because as with most things (Diadeeeeeeeeeeeem), I can see potential in it... Rework Frontlines so each mode (Secure/Slaughter/Seize/Shatter) can be played on each map (Borderland Ruins/Seal Rock/Fields of Glory)... Slip in Feasts Leaderboard system and make it ranked, with each Grand Company having its own Leaderboard for rewards, on top of the Grand Companies themselves being ranked against each other for additional rewards... Then you've got a system where the Grand Companies actually matter to the gameplay, rather than just being an irritating restriction... The lore behind the conflicts is still kinda dumb, but they can at least make the gameplay work... Can't retcon the lore at this point, but if I was going to, I'd change "We're fighting over a McGuffin!" to "Cid reprogrammed some Allagan sh*t for Alliance training exercises!".
As far as the lore goes, I think that's kinda the problem... The Eorzean Alliance is already busy dealing with the Garleans and Beast Tribes, that's why we're the ones fighting in Frontlines, they simply don't have the manpower to secure the regions and Adventurers aren't they type to apply for guard duty... Thus war games... I imagine it works as a fairly wonderful deterrent against anyone interesting in the Allagan McGuffins we're supposedly fighting for, 72 Warriors of Light in one place? You'd be mad to try and make a move on those territories... I kinda wish they'd incorporate that kind of element into the games themselves... Right now we just have the odd Allagan Drone (or had, since Secure/Slaughter are dead), would make more sense to have Garleans swoop in as a 4th faction for us to unite against for additional points... Then the lore makes a bit more sense; We're not just fighting over the resources, we're turning the area into a warzone to keep it safe from the likes of Garlemald...Quote:
Originally Posted by VargasVermillion
I... Have no idea why I'm giving SE ideas for a new Frontlines map... Please don't make that SE, either the next Frontlines update makes Secure/Slaughter/Seize relevant again, or there is no next Frontlines update... Please don't add Skrimish, only to throw Shatter in the same cold ditch Secure/Slaughter/Seize are rotting in... -
08-01-2016, 12:49 PMTheodric
It makes a lot more sense when you consider that if it weren't for Garlemald and Primals Eorzea would likely be at war with itself. Much like it has been throughout a lot of it's known history. That the Grand Companies would bicker over powerful Allagan relics doesn't at all surprise me. It fits. That isn't to say that PvP hasn't been handled poorly where the lore is concerned but still.
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08-01-2016, 01:14 PMMorningstar1337To add, there had been two examples of the states of Eorzea not being as buddy-buddy with each other as the game depictsQuote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
- The Autumn War: The reason the Alliance was initially formed in the first place was because Ala Mhigo waged war on the Twelveswood. And proved to be a danger to the other three states in the process. In essence their first common enemy came form within
- The Dragonsong War: More neutral than malicious, but Ishgard was the only citystate that didn't willingly join the Alliance when it reformed, despite that the Garleans would be much more dangerous that Nidhogg's petty rage in the long run. Not to mention that Thordian the leader at the time would not be that far off from Ala Mhigo's King of Ruin when it come to ambitions of dominance.
It is also worth noting that while the GC leaders are friends, the cultures would still be at odds and each of them have higher powers that would likely wage war with each other if they wanted. For Ul'dah, its the Syndicate, specifically the Monaterist faction. For Gridiania, its the elementals who have been liken to a cult in other threads and for Limsa? Well in that cast Mewlyb is the actual leader but there is still the potential for rouge pirates messing things up in a vacuum (as in, if there weren't bigger fish to fry like Garlemald).
Likewise each of the States have their own reaosn for coveting the Allagan relics. Ul'dah's Syndicate would easily profit off the Allagan infomation there, The Elementals would see said infomation as something to be hidden given the trouble the technology had caused (with the possibility of Allag influencing Mhach, the instigator of the War of the Magi that pissed them off to create a biblical great flood.) and like Ul'dah, Limsa could profit off the knowledge and would likely use it themselves rather then selling it to the highest bidder (Note that Rowena was from Ul'dah)
(Note the Allag-Mhach thing is speculation on my end. Based around the use of voidsent) -
08-01-2016, 10:07 PMAlberel
IIRC didn't Nanamo at one point state that the Frontlines battles were actually staged as a front to stop Lolorito laying claim to the territory? The GCs aren't actually feuding over anything, they're just contesting the land to ensure what's buried there (Omega) doesn't fall into less scrupulous hands.
I do think we'll see the GC restrictions on PvP lifted eventually, but Yoshi is waiting for some specific story event to explain it. I hope that it may be soon now that the Alliance is reformed. -
08-01-2016, 10:36 PMLineageRazor
Keep in mind, too, that the initial driving force behind setting up the Frontlines mock battles in Carteneau was not just to decide ownership of Allagan artifacts, but specifically to prevent Teleji Adaleji from easily acquiring a specific Allagan Artifact: The Omega Weapon, which is said to be hidden there.
Teleji is dead, now, so that's less of an immediate concern, but the Alliance can't simply drop everything now that he's gone, as that would be tantamount to admitting that they'd set the whole thing in motion just to cock block a wealthy Ul'dah council member from making a powerful investment - something which would disgruntle a lot of powerful individuals in Ul'dah (who LIKE to have the freedom to spend their wealth making powerful investments, and have the influence to make things mighty awkward for the Alliance if they were ever to became outright hostile to it). Even if they could just drop everything, doing so would open up Carteneau for purchase by some other individual with the same idea as Teleji.
Anyway, now that they've established a precedent in the handling of Allagan artifacts, they've continued the practice in the two new PvP areas, again, pretty much, to hide the fact that the whole farce is primarily to keep Omega Weapon (and any other Allagan nasties they might find along the way) out of private ownership. -
08-01-2016, 11:03 PMAryalandi
I have mostly just never understood why they don't open the bloodsands in Ul'dah as a pvp arena, it was literally teased right in the gladiator storyline as being a big goal for everyone to get to fight there but then they never actually did anything with it. It makes no sense to have a famous arena available for pvp/pve tournament style combat and then not use it for anything but a random mention in a couple of quests.
As for the Grand Companies sanctioned skirmishing between their forces in the form of competitive games is a moral booster, it builds unity in factions, lets bored soldiers vent and show national pride while also getting some valuable training in. Also there is the obvious keeping other people out while also securing valuable resources. In short as long as they do not het carried away the benifits are pretty huge. -
08-01-2016, 11:50 PMMiraKershawFind this VERY hard to believe the only known conflict is between Ala Mhigo and thats because they wanted to annex the shroud, if you think about it there's not really a possible way they would war with each other if we are thinking the main three, Gridania sticks to itself in the shroud, Ul'dah wouldnt want to waste money to push into shroud or build a navy to take Limsa, or Limsa to take on a infantry based nation like Ul'dah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
Mainly because elementals of the shroud, ul'dah trying to take on a navy based nation like limsa and vice versa, all possible conflicts seem to negated by how the nations themselves are set up. -
08-02-2016, 03:25 AMMorningstar1337I still think that how the nations are set up would also be the reason there is potential for war between them. If the Elementals were known for being pacifists, we wouldn't have Mhach attempt play Noah's Ark. Ul'dah could easy buy out the more corrupt people of La Noscea (who bear in mind, ARE pirates) and distribute the Trader's Spurn to further turn their opponents into allies (That's how they dealt with Sil'dih). Limsa Lominsa? again, pirates and likely with some people wanting to go back to the days of yore were piracy was king.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiraKershaw
The potential for war is there, with the only fetters being a desire to not be annexed but a foreign power (Garlemald), or stripped of their free will and turned into a more blatant and dangerous theorcratic version of themselves serving a God-Emporer, as well as the realpolitik that became the result of the GC formations and alliance (And even then, that already puts them odds with the Syndicate). The Final fetter on whatever desire for war is there is the prominence of a certain NGO to aid them in repelling Garlemald and the Primals so that they can retain their freedom/free will. -
08-02-2016, 06:43 AMVargasVermillionThe thing about this though is that I'm pretty sure lore wise there is only 1 warrior of light, the other 3/7 are 'skilled mercenaries' and the like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
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08-02-2016, 07:01 AMMiraKershawI don't really see the Elementals as pacifists but more of a ward, you mess with the elementals you get nuked and who wants that, also you seem to think Ul'dah is a united even though every syndicate member seems to have their own distrust amongst each other and are even more corrupt than the people of la noscea, not to mention each syndicate member more or less has their own private army.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morningstar1337
As for buying out the pirates, Ul'dah has no way to gurantee the pirates into doing their work, with no navy to pressure them, the pirates have free will , whats stopping them from just taking the money and buggering off, or just raiding ul'dah merchant ships, limsans would even pay them more for doing that, and as you said piracy is king, ul'dah wouldnt trust pirates if they can barely trust themselves. -
08-04-2016, 12:37 AMAlberelAh was it Teledji? I forgot which it was but assumed Lolorito for some reason. Indeed with Teledji now dead that leaves even more room for them to lift the GC restrictions lore-wise as they no longer need to maintain the charade quite so enthusiastically.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
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08-04-2016, 01:22 PMEdwinLi
These mock battles are also the result of disagreement on how to handle the Allagan technology.
Each city state want to use them for different reason with each reason being a belief that their method will benefit Eorzea.
We don't really know what each City State wish to use the Allagan tech and knowledge for but best guess is that...
Ul'dah wants to use it to advance Eorzea's Industrial side. Well this is basically Industrialisation.
Gridania wants to use it to advance the more Medical and Agriculture side. Good for improving farming, medical knowledge for finding non-magical cures for diseases, and prevent any agriculture issues or repair damages from old agriculture issues.
Limsa wants to use it to advance Military technology side. Better ships, weapons, and vehicles which are great for defending against possible invasion and being well equipped to travel into unknown lands.
All three benefits Eorzea but each City State only see their method as better than the other two and with there not being enough Allagan Tech for all three they rather set up a mock battle over a actual war for how they believe Eorzea should advance in technology. -
08-04-2016, 09:39 PMTinyRedLeafI know this is just guesswork based on headcanon , but I'm curious why you think Ul'dah would be the first to industrialise.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinLi
Ul'dahn economy, for the most part, is based on trade and services, and its most valuable exports are luxury goods (mainly high-quality textiles and precious gems). Ul'dahn intelligentsia, from what I can tell, are mainly working as traders or merchants, or as the clergy of the Nald'Thal church. The alchemists of the city are the city's most likely entrepreneurs but, as a guild, they're part of the Monetarist faction, which is more inclined towards commerce than heavy industry.
Limsa Lominsa, more pertinently, is home to the realm's foremost metallurgical guilds, and given the extensive shipbuilding industry that already exists, Limsa blacksmiths and armourers are only a small step away from industrialisation. They just need to make the societal and technological leap to mass production and, voila, you'd have a modern industrial state akin to that of Garlemald. Given the presence of arcanists, who are by far the most scientifically driven of Eorzea's mage classes, I'd say that odds of Limsa making that technological leap are better than those of the other city-states.
As you noted, Lominsans are predisposed towards war. And nothing drives technological progress like warfare. ;) -
08-05-2016, 12:21 AMMorningstar1337probably because Ul'dah is a plutocracy, and because they can get more money with industrialization. So the most gredy there will likely look into it. As for the Allagan knowledge itself, as I mentioned before, they can also profit off selling the knowledge itself, as already proven by one of her citizens.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
As for the warfare part, they still have to contend with the technologically advanced Garlean Empire, so theres alreay ample oppotunity for both to improve their own tech. -
08-05-2016, 02:11 AMEdwinLiAs Mooningstar said industrialisation fits Ul'dah because it will sky rocket economic profits. Ul'dah is a city state that focus more on economic profits which industrialisation effects is partly known for improving at a massive scale due to being able to mass produce products that is used for different services and goods while also introducing new methods to produce expensive goods at a low cost rate for production allowing them to gain even more in profit from those expensive goods.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
Limsa is not really a industrialisation type of City State as it focus more on Military advancements such as the development of Guns to replace bows and arrows, better warships, organized military training, and etc far more than Ul'dah and Gridania.
Ul'dah's main military, the Brass Blade, is mostly just a private military force for Corporations, being the Syndicate, and are just as corrupt as their Corporate masters. Syndicate only supports the Brass Blade because they need a military force to protect their "High valued" interests.
Well all three certainly benefits them in military improvement as well but with limited Allagan Tech and Knowledge to advance only one method it certainly comes into question where will they want to improve on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morningstar1337
If we go for Ul'dah industrialisation then more weapons, gears, and supplies can be created thus risk of being low on any type of weapons, vehicles for different method of travel, building materials, and supplies will be reduce greatly. This will also increase the ability to establish more bases and outposts due to having plenty of supply to support these bases and outposts. However, we will only be able to mass produce current technology type things which gives the garlean a advantage in military technology and medical technology along with better understanding of terrains.
If we go for Gridania medical and agriculture then we can have better knowledge of terrains and medical knowledge thus a better understanding for mobilizing units through different types of lands and soldiers will not need to depend on Healing magic as much as before due to now gaining better access to non-magical medicine for any injuries and diseases. However, the ability to mass produce these non-magical cures and Eorzea's military technology won't be as advance as the Garlean Empire.
If we go Limsa then we will get better military technology to combat any invaders and if we enter unknown territory we have better technology weapons to fight any unknown threats along with better vehicles and ships will help greatly for long distance travel as well. However, the garleans will have a advantage over being able to mass produce supplies and materials to create their stuff better and better knowledge over medical technology and terrain. -
08-05-2016, 12:53 PMToranja
The first to industrialise would be Ishgard. A resource constrained region with religious tumult fits the bill.
Ul'dah is a mercantile nation. It is the Spain or Portugal of Eorzea. Those on top preserve their interests by stifling disruptive change. Have you forgotten 2.55? -
08-05-2016, 03:26 PMMorningstar1337There is some support with Skysteel...but I don't think they have much of a stake in this (yet,) because they have other priorities than Allagan relics and are still lacking a Grand Company.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toranja