For the fellow DRKs out there..

Posted this small, tiny change in another forum post in general (about 5 pages in by the time i posted this here), but would Delirium be more utilized if we had the ability to make Dark Arts add a different effect to it, without making it some kind of crazy OP skill like most people want? Just something to discuss. IDK if I have any ideas as to what it may be instead, but I was thinking something similar to Storm's Path (10% global damage reduction from the target) for the same duration as the INT down currently is (20sec). Discuss, ideas, opinions?

And go figure as soon as this is posted I look below it on the job tweeks thread... IGNORE MY IGNORANCE, MORTALS!

The thing is that Path is already OP by itself, which means that the change you propose will push DRK slot way ahead vs PLD for MT slot considering it's a different debuff and stackable with Path unless otherwise stated.

I'd rather they just have the Sole Survivor PVP debuff function in PVE tbh. A more offensive debuff like that makes sense for drk but that also runs the risk of making it way better than both tanks.

Delirium is your highest potency combo without DA, and so it should be a staple of your rotation, even if you already have a MNK. If you alternate DA-SE and Delerium combos, then you'll have a lot less trouble with your MP.

DRK already has a 10% global dmg reduction skill. it is some kind of random and only really in MT position useable, but we have it (on top of the int debuff).
being able to keep -20% global damage reduction on the boss seems a bit OP.

when i would change a thing on Delirium then i would put the blunt resistance debuff on it so the monks don't have to use dragon kick themself and probably can increase their dps (don't know much about the monk rotations xD).

I actually prefer that Delirium has no DA effect, because then I can pre-cast DA in preparation for an enhanced defensive, AD, or DP. Having Delirium consume it would actually make the rotation feel far more clunky to me, and the DRK generally less fluid or responsive.

Pipedream-wise, I'd love to retool all three finishers slightly to bring out a more bastardly, dastardly, terrifyingly badass DRK identity, but for now they all seem just fine. I'd just like for Delirium to be able to be present at the same time as Dragon Kick without actually stacking the Int Down effect. It can be annoying when a raid hit goes off that, had the debuff not been removed by DK, Delirium would have been up for. It would also aid any small buffs it might eventually receive.

If we're still worried about the near-guaranteed WAR slot after that, could always add a tiny something to RoH and Delirium. RoH, for instance, could reduce Evasion, aiding low-accuracy healer damage or being rotateable to allow melee DPS to drop some accuracy in favor of offensive secondary stats, while Delirium reduces hit chance very slightly, somewhat decreasing damage taken over time. In that way, they're each potentially a bit more worthwhile on pure-physical or pure-magical enemies respectively than Path would be. The best option, of course, would be that they each have some, less obvious, usage on the opposite type, as to compete with Path's dual-type effect, but I've no ideas for that yet.

The only thing I feel like DRK really needs is a way, even if costly, to activate Reprisal from the OT position. There can be swap timings where, no matter who starts, Reprisal may be unavailable when needed. Sole Survivor allowing parry proc sharing while diverting or sharing some portion of your parry chance to/with an allied target is my preferred method. Attach whatever other secondary effects you like, and now you have a interesting, even if inferior, Cover alternative that allows OT Reprisal usage. Oh, and a 30 to 70% reduction to Grit MP cost or some secondary effect added to its cast to warrant both nearly a DA of MP being spent and a whole GCD...

Personally I think delerium should be changed to 10% magic damage reduction (rather than INT reduction) and rage of halone should be changed to 10% physical damage reduction, while storm's path should be 5% damage reduction (both types). Dragon kick and virus should stay INT and STR down so they stack with these.

10% STR/INT down isn't the same as 10% damage reduction making it less powerful than a straight damage reduction, which makes both effects worse than storm's path even before the fact that they only reduce one type of damage. And for PLD, STR down means it has no effect on ranged damage or ninja's even though they're still physical damage. These changes would normalise the tank damage debuffs to make more sense for their style and with eachother as well as allowing both dragon kick and delerium to work together.

As for a dark arts effect, nah, to me delerium is the combo we use when we don't have the mp for dark arts or when we want to use dark arts for a buff like dark dance or dark mind without stopping our damage so we don't consume it. I love dark arts and would love to see more use out of it on more moves, but delerium isn't one of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cabalabob

Personally I think delerium should be changed to 10% magic damage reduction (rather than INT reduction) and rage of halone should be changed to 10% physical damage reduction, while storm's eye should be 5% damage reduction (both types). Dragon kick and virus should stay INT and STR down so they stack with these.

---

Before some people get confused, that is supposed to be Storm's Path. It's plausible to have a lowered effect on Path but it becomes another huge problem if Delirium/RoH are changed to damage reduction, mainly stacking in MNK for that extra -int%. This would mean PLD/DRK/MNK/NIN will become a huge thing for ultimate defense and it only comes with sacrificing a little bit of NIN's DPS for tank's DPS + all the huge mitigation for progressions.

Note: PLD/DRK will give 10% mitigation for both VS PLD/WAR (15 physical, 5 magical) or DRK/WAR (5 physical, 15 magical). This is especially useful for both balanced party and tanks survival with slightly more emphasis for party assuming SE will design fights that feature both physical and magical damage. Under this circumstance if ever happens, DRK/WAR will only be used mainly for DPS and magical dmg heavy fights (T13 A4S like encounter) and PLD/WAR will only be used for physical dmg heavy fights (T4 T5 T9 A2S like fights).

Of course it remains to be seen how this will pan out and it's not a fair assessment to judge too early, just some thoughts on my part.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarcatica

Before some people get confused, that is supposed to be Storm's Path. It's plausible to have a lowered effect on Path but it becomes another huge problem if Delirium/RoH are changed to damage reduction, mainly stacking in MNK for that extra -int%. This would mean PLD/DRK/MNK/NIN will become a huge thing for ultimate defense and it only comes with sacrificing a little bit of NIN's DPS for tank's DPS + all the huge mitigation for progressions.

---

Yes path, I always get those mixed up, war is the tank I play the least, changed it.

As for MNK becoming the most taken. Maybe if they lowered it to 5% INT reduction instead of 10%. Then DRK/WAR/MNK would be 20~% magic reduction 5% physical reduction. PLD/WAR/MNK would be 15% physical 10~% magical. PLD/DRK/MNK would be 10% physical 15~% magical. That way each setup would be better for different scenarios where you need to be more defensive. And I don't see that as an entirely bad thing, MNK lacks synergy with anyone at the moment being the only blunt DD and having a non-stacking debuff. Having a stacking INT debuff and mantra would set MNK up as the defensive synergy DD.

It's important to have at least one of our combos to not have a DA effect. Otherwise you'd end up having to delay oGCDs in order to ensure that your combo finisher didn't consume DA. Delirium was the best design choice for this out of the three.

I prefer having Reprisal to having a Storm's Path clone. Reprisal gets more general purpose use, as SP costs you dps to use. The only real downside is that it doesn't see use in fights with magical autos due to the parry requirement.

We really lucked out with the two best defensive debuffs, given that most AoE damage tends to be magical. The only thing that really needs sorting out is the Storm's Eye/Dancing Edge buff, especially if we end up remaining in the present three tank format in the expansion. But I'd much rather see that debuff go to PLD, unless there's a way of incentivizing NIN to maintain the debuff. I'd like to see PLD/DRK setups become more viable, and that's probably one of the bigger limiting factors.

For the future I think some synergy could come from giving PLD a oGCD WS with a Blunt Resistance Down debuff that works for 100% uptime. (maybe the WS itself is considered blunt damage, like a Flat Blade, Pommel Strike, etc). MNK + PLD + DRK could drop Dragon Kick for Bootshine, PLD + WAR + MNK could as well if feeling edgy.

PLD: add a significant Magical attack to their kit, and DRK a debuff increasing target's magical crit chance+ temporarily. There's some synergy..or rather a perk that WAR doesn't benefit from..

DPS+ utility should be WAR's bag - and I think they should have other abilities that increase raid DPS as well (like Warcry evantually), but that doesn't mean they should hold a monopoly on it. The fact EYE is 100% uptime (and the reality the next tank is likely SAM, so another slashing weapon), should be an advantage over PLD/DRK DPS+ utility options, but that doesn't mean PLD/DRK shouldn't have any period, imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xenosan

and the reality the next tank is likely SAM, so another slashing weapon)

---

In an interview after heavensward released yoshi said he didn't go with SAM for that expansion because he wants it to be a damage dealer and they needed a tank class so they went with dark knight. So that's not likely at all. But we will be getting another slashing damage dealer.

I'd say the next tank is likely going to be blue Mage, since red Mage, blue Mage and samurai were hinted at in the anniversary event, if we know Sam is going to be a damage dealer and we assume they're going to go with 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 dps with the expansion, I'd say it's more likely red Mage will fill the healer role and blue Mage will fill the tank role.

As for a weapon, blue mages have been known to use all sorts, staves, clubs, swords, hand to hand, whips, spears. So the next tank damage type is entirely up in the air.

Changing my original idea, you all were exactly right that the SP clone would be a bad idea. How about just make it a bit simpler and something we only see one skill of in the game, just make it a short duration Pacify (like shield slam). Would love to see that effect more utilized in the game, at least as an enemy attack. Once more, discuss this possibility, or any ideas as to a way this could work out without becoming some kind of OP thing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Truefaith87

...would Delirium be more utilized...

---

Allow me to rephrase my statement: Delerium is very well-utilized in the DRK rotation, and if it's not, then it should be. Even if you have a MNK in your group, it's still worth using--religiously, even--because its has a higher base potency than any of your other combos without Dark Arts. It shouldn't need any more incentive than that to use, as it is the best combo to rely on while trying to rebuild MP (non-DA Souleater's self-heal can likely be considered negligible). A good DRK rotation will incorporate it, as it maximizes damage output. Maybe during periods of sustained heavy incoming damage you'll want to use Souleater instead, but the default without Dark Arts should be Delerium.

Sure, the utility component might not be as strong as Rage of Halone or Storm's Path, but that is no excuse to not use it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I'd say the next tank is likely going to be blue Mage,

---

I hope not. If anything I'd say the game is good with 3 tanks as is until they've got DRK and PLD figured out well.

As for the OP, Delirium is fine as is. If you're not using it when not using DA+SE for your combo, you're messing your rotation up. If anything they should be looking into making Sole Survivor function more akin to it's pvp version for some party utility that functions outside of the MT role and maybe increase amount of hp healed through DA Soul Eater to give DRK some better self recovery options outside of groups.

I enjoy Drk well enough as is, though the only suggestion I'd ever give would be one that could apply to Pld as well which is give Drk (and pld) a means to regenerate TP so they don't run out. Warrior got a means to restore TP so now every job in the game except for Drk and Pld have some way to restore their main resource. Sure you can restore MP as both Pld and Drk, but their main combos all use TP while it's mostly oGCD and supportive stuff that use MP. That or maybe make them use MP as a resource entirely since their attacks to seem to be more magical in nature than Warrior's stuff. I dunno, I'm just a no name budding Drk so no one would care about my thoughts, but I figured I'd express them all the same.

@ Renryuu

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renryuu

I enjoy Drk well enough as is, though the only suggestion I'd ever give would be one that could apply to Pld as well which is give Drk (and pld) a means to regenerate TP so they don't run out. Warrior got a means to restore TP so now every job in the game except for Drk and Pld have some way to restore their main resource. Sure you can restore MP as both Pld and Drk, but their main combos all use TP while it's mostly oGCD and supportive stuff that use MP. That or maybe make them use MP as a resource entirely since their attacks to seem to be more magical in nature than Warrior's stuff. I dunno, I'm just a no name budding Drk so no one would care about my thoughts, but I figured I'd express them all the same.

---

As it stands, DRK's TP can outlast most melee dps despite their having Invigorate, iirc. Its TP costs are less than that of a Monk (especially if said Monk uses Fracture, which he almost certainly will), and decrease even further as it gains attack speed through its abilities (Blood Weapon). And it shows. My 2.00 GCD Monk takes about 35 seconds, I think, to need its first Invigorate, and bottoms out in less than 3 minutes unless I weave in Meditations for Purification. My 2.40 GCD DRK can go for 5 minutes+. I could see giving PLDs a means to this, or just making all its finishers cost 50 TP (instead of only the one that would only be spammed in an AoE situation... which is when the PLD least needs TP anyways, because of Flash...), but DRK just really doesn't need it.

tldr; if you really want to level the playing field, drop Heavy Swing to 60 TP, Rage of Halone and Royal Authority to 50, increase Goring Blade to 60, and give Inner Beast and Fell Cleave a 50-60 TP cost and Decimate and Steel Cyclone 70-90 TP cost. Reduce or even remove the MP costs of Oaths and Grit, reduce the time lost to swapping, or provide some new bonus to balance out the current mana and time costs.

Ah I did not know, as I said, I'm a newbie to the tanks so I'm ignorant to longevity beyond what I see on forums and stuff. Forgive me.