anyone thinks the seals gained from turning in HW dungeon drops be nerfed?

right now it gives way too much and makes the "adventurer in need" reward nearly obsolete when you can roll in an HW dungeon as any class and make more seals than you ever could as an "adventurer in need"

there will always be people that will roll need on drops they don't need just for the seals taking it away from players that really need it for either glamour or even stats

this is going to be pretty problematic if the devs ever do increase inventory space without fixing this because that would enable company seal hoarders to hoard even more

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Originally Posted by Neihel

right now it gives way too much and makes the "adventurer in need" reward nearly obsolete when you can roll in an HW dungeon as any class and make more seals than you ever could as an "adventurer in need"

there will always be people that will roll need on drops they don't need just for the seals taking it away from players that really need it for either glamour or even stats

this is going to be pretty problematic if the devs ever do increase inventory space without fixing this because that would enable company seal hoarders to hoard even more

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I brought this up with my static not to long ago and was told that there wasn't anything wrong with people rolling need on gear for seals because they still need it. Just in a different way from you.

I was told, if you need gear, farm Midas. If you want glamour, queue the dungeon as that class. Otherwise, all is fair game.

You can't justify that needing gear for glamour is more entitled than someone needing it for seals.

Nothing wrong with rolling need on gear you will turn in for seals. Your need for the gear to wear is not greater than the need of the other player has to turn in for seals to purchase items they need for their character.

Everyone has the same chance to win the need roll.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Nothing wrong with rolling need on gear you will turn in for seals. Your need for the gear to wear is not greater than the need of the other player has to turn in for seals to purchase items they need for their character.

Everyone has the same chance to win the need roll.

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If the intent of either party is to turn in the gear, then sure. But if someone needs for seals over the person that actually needs the gear to have a higher ilvl and better stats, it really does feel like a dick move.

"Oh finally, I'll now have the ilvl to nevermind!"

Seals will always be something a player may be in need of. But there are plenty of methods to obtain them, some even quicker than dungeoning.

No thanks, why should I be punished for wanting to get seals for materials or armour or anything that I want to buy from my grand company, if you want glamour then you better work for it like the rest of us.

Most of us are in a dungeon for a reason either it be tomes or leveling, if I'm able to get some items to trade in I will go for it unless someone asks that they can have that piece of gear.

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Originally Posted by FreakinZMartin

No thanks, why should I be punished for wanting to get seals for materials or armour or anything that I want to buy from my grand company, if you want glamour then you better work for it like the rest of us.

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But that's why the person would be in the dungeon..... to work for it.

I get the logic you were aiming for, but you kind of kicked yourself with that post.

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Originally Posted by CheshirePuss

If the intent of either party is to turn in the gear, then sure. But if someone needs for seals over the person that actually needs the gear to have a higher ilvl and better stats, it really does feel like a dick move.

"Oh finally, I'll now have the ilvl to nevermind!"

Seals will always be something a player may be in need of. But there are plenty of methods to obtain them, some even quicker than dungeoning.

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And you can also counter argue that by saying there's other ways to boost your item level. This can be easily done by crafted gear on the market board.

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Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

You can't justify that needing gear for glamour is more entitled than someone needing it for seals.

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In the same vein, then, you can't justify that needing gear for your main class is more entitled than someone needing it for an alt-class.

As such, the role/class restrictions on loot should really be abolished.

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Originally Posted by CheshirePuss

But that's why the person would be in the dungeon..... to work for it.

I get the logic you were aiming for, but you kind of kicked yourself with that post.

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If they say that they need the item then I will pass on it but I will greed/need anything.

You just need to ask most people will pass the item for you.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

In the same vein, then, you can't justify that needing gear for your main class is more entitled than someone needing it for an alt-class.

As such, the role/class restrictions on loot should really be abolished.

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Your right. You can't justify that either because both players need it.

But you can justify that if they wanted that piece of gear, they should've queued as that job to roll against you.

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Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

And you can also counter argue that by saying there's other ways to boost your item level. This can be easily done by crafted gear on the market board.

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Not really. The fact that the market can be very expensive to a player, even a non-crafter, especially in HW's phase of leveling, can be discouraging. Imagine, trying to compare forking over a ton of money for just a few pieces, and risking a potentially long queue (depending on class) for a 25-30 min or so dungeon run, to be out voted by a person that can spend about 5-10 min in a fate, per fate, and probably even spend less time to get the seals that add up to the gear piece that was taken. Fates alone are enough to get a person to cap if they're smart about where they grind. I recall hitting my seals cap on many occasions when grinding for a few of my Realm Reborn relics.

Unfortunately, wither or not the gear is expensive for you is irrelevant to me as another player. The point remains that the option to purchase the gear is still there which keeps my statement in check. I shouldn't have to pass on something I could use, just so you can increase your item level by a tiny bit when I could be trying to do the same. If you want to bypass buying gear, then you need to farm the dungeon as the class you wish to upgrade, and roll need against anyone else who also happens to be of that role type. Where everything is on equal grounds.

At the end of the day, you don't know why that player needs it; or how that player intends to use it.

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Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

Unfortunately, wither or not the gear is expensive for you is irrelevant to me as another player. The point remains that the option to purchase the gear is still there which keeps my statement in check. If you want to bypass that, then you need to farm the dungeon as the class you wish to upgrade, and roll need against anyone else who also happens to be of that class type where everything is on equal grounds.

At the end of the day, you don't know why that player needs it; or how that player intends to use it.

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That being said, I feel like it goes without saying that the point of this thread is literally useless. In the end it's the player's preference about how it has to be handled, and all we've done is argue our preferences.

Im sorry im not passing on gear because someone needs ilvl or glamour. I don't care which dungeon i'm in, I need / greed everything. We all need seals.

If people really need or want something that badly maybe they should be bringing friends to help them so they won't have to roll against someone else?

And the seals are nerfed over time. As we get higher ilvl gear the seals from other things are lowered. Not sure if you remember but there was a time you could obtain the same high amount of seals from items in 2.0. It's a reward for running newer content. If you take that away people have even less of a reason to run things. Sometimes I don't need lore or poetics so why am I running roulette that day? Oh hey maybe i'll get some seals if i'm lucky. That's it.

There are some other ways to obtain seals, but not everyone enjoys doing those things, such as Fates.. I enjoy doing dungeons for mine OP.. so no thanks.

not sure why one would need so many seals but a lot of this GC stuff is sold cheap on the MB

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Originally Posted by Neihel

not sure why one would need so many seals but a lot of this GC stuff is sold cheap on the MB

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and a lot of it isn't. Ventures. Moonstone... for example.

If you utilize even 2 retainers properly you should easily being going through a lot of ventures.

I have 4, some people I know have more. We use our seals constantly.

Moonstone is for crafters most of the people needing that I have encountered don't even craft

so it's unlikely they'll need the seals for tools that are nearly obsolete on HW

if you only buy ventures then it's easy to buy hundreds of those and still be able to do that the next day without turning in

Every time when joining a dungeon I ask if people need gear. If not then I'll greed/need whatever shows up in the loot window for seals. I do that out of courtesy since I know how hard it can be for new players to gear up. Not talking about people that just want to gear their alts. Even so I do think the dungeon gear in the lvl 60 dungeon's shouldn't be worn by anyone, I can't tell anyone how to play the game. But that's my own choice, I do not expect other players to ask or not to roll on gear that they do not need, in terms of wearing gear.

Moonstones are one of the currencies you can turn in, in exchange for crystal sand, and that's part of the new relic. There are simpler ways of obtaining those sands but hey if someone chooses to do it via Moonstones, I am all for it lol

Not really, people will always have their reasons to roll "need". Its always been this way; if you get someone you don't think needs a piece of gear they rolled on, just need other gear you can roll on.

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Originally Posted by Neihel

Moonstone is for crafters most of the people needing that I have encountered don't even craft

so it's unlikely they'll need the seals for tools that are nearly obsolete on HW

if you only buy ventures then it's easy to buy hundreds of those and still be able to do that the next day without turning in

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moonstones are used in the new relic step

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Originally Posted by Neihel

Moonstone is for crafters most of the people needing that I have encountered don't even craft

so it's unlikely they'll need the seals for tools that are nearly obsolete on HW

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Moonstone - part of 3.3 relic quest


If someone don't like that someone else roll Need, go as healer or tank (no competitions in Need rolls).

People may need it for different reasons.

Just because someone needs for glamour doesnt mean they have more of a right to have that piece over someone who needs it for gear, or someone who needs it for seals.

The only time they have more of a right is if the person simply throws away(discards) the piece of gear.

As long as the gear is being used in a meaningful way that is beneficial to the player, then all is fair.

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Originally Posted by CheshirePuss

If the intent of either party is to turn in the gear, then sure. But if someone needs for seals over the person that actually needs the gear to have a higher ilvl and better stats, it really does feel like a dick move.

"Oh finally, I'll now have the ilvl to nevermind!"

Seals will always be something a player may be in need of. But there are plenty of methods to obtain them, some even quicker than dungeoning.

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^ This.

Even if I'm on a job that can need on something and I think "Oh, that looks nice, I might get that for glamour", I greed it, because that's what it is, greed, I don't need that glamour, I want it. The only time I need is if I actually need it for ilvl.

Theres much faster ways to obtain seals than by screwing people out of gear they actually need so they can do more damage / participate in more content etc. Also, this far into HW, seals is kind of a piss poor excuse, seeing as most of the stuff you can buy from it, such as coke etc, is dirt cheap (under 500 gil each on Midgardsormr last I checked) and a good portion of it us somewhat useless.

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Originally Posted by CheshirePuss

Not really. The fact that the market can be very expensive to a player, even a non-crafter, especially in HW's phase of leveling, can be discouraging. Imagine, trying to compare forking over a ton of money for just a few pieces, and risking a potentially long queue (depending on class) for a 25-30 min or so dungeon run, to be out voted by a person that can spend about 5-10 min in a fate, per fate, and probably even spend less time to get the seals that add up to the gear piece that was taken. Fates alone are enough to get a person to cap if they're smart about where they grind. I recall hitting my seals cap on many occasions when grinding for a few of my Realm Reborn relics.

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^ And this.

If someone is trying to get ilvl for their main so they can be better geared, chances are, theres no way in hell they'll be able to afford crafted gear, seeing as those are a couple mil each. I agree, it's extremely easy to cap seals by doing a few fates than it is to trade in gear, I can't tell you how many times I've capped, blown my seals on ventures, only to recap not long after, without even grinding fates, just one every now and then.


This has been brought up before way near the beginning of 2.0, but, you don't need seals or glamour, you want them, they in no way help you progress or help you clear content, so it's greed. Getting higher ilvl so you can actually progression, you need that. Last time this was brought up I actually had someone argue with me "Well SE should tell us what greed/need mean then", because people can't tell the difference in need/greed on their own...? People confuse wanting something with needing it.

It's not about someone "having more of a right over the gear" or whatever the argument people use is. It's about not being a jerk about it. I'd really love to see these people play a mmo where you actually had to behave or you couldn't progress.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

It's not about someone "having more of a right over the gear" or whatever the argument people use is. It's about not being a jerk about it. I'd really love to see these people play a mmo where you actually had to behave or you couldn't progress.

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Funny you should mention that. Just about every time I roll need on a piece of gear - someone else believes their need is more justified and calls me a dick. The looting rules are there and they are JUST. A player getting upset over losing a roll, fair and square, should take a break. The moment you try to throw your own ideals into the looting rules, people get hurt!

I dunno how this is even a thing. Every single run I been on, no one ever complains about gear going to someone else that "doesn't deserve it". People roll, the loot goes to whoever, we move on. Simple. If you want loot that bad, either go as the appropriate class or go do the run with friends.

But I need it for desynth.

I strongly disagree with needing on a piece of gear that is not an upgrade for you, I don't care if you need seals/desynth/glam or whatever. I mean if you do that, whatever, you do you, but it's something I find to be in bad taste.

As long as one is going to use the gear, for seals, glamour, desynth, or even to use, it's all fair. They are doing the same amount of work as you for the same rewards.

It all boils down to communication, if you need to wear something then say so in chat, don't assume people can read your mind, otherwise the common assumption is that everything is fair game be it need or greed, because the majority of times the people you run that with won't need to wear that gear, dungeon gear has always been the weakest alternative compared to literally everything else, so it pretty much exists as seal fodder or glamour.

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Originally Posted by Neihel

not sure why one would need so many seals but a lot of this GC stuff is sold cheap on the MB

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For me it's ventures. I have 8 retainers, sending them out on quick ventures requires 16 ventures every hour. Although I do top up my ventures by buying them with allied seals and getting from some beast tribe quests, the bulk of my ventures come from using Grand Company seals which equates to 3,200 seals per hour. If I'm playing for 6 hours, that's 96 ventures I need, or 19,200 seals.

Obviously I chose to have 8 retainers and I choose to send them our on quick ventures as often as I can and I'm fine with the current costings, but I am also handing in pretty much every bit of gear I get to feed my retainers hunger for ventures...

Hope that helps to answer your question as to a reason why!

Honestly if the case is someone needs for the item level increase, speak up. Hold the roll, check the person really quick and ask. I greed all (or need) unless someone says they could actually use the item and yes, I either glamour or turn em in for seals cus ventures burn fast. Most people will gladly pass on that glove or body piece if its actually going to help. However if you never say anything then they never know.

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Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

I brought this up with my static not to long ago and was told that there wasn't anything wrong with people rolling need on gear for seals because they still need it. Just in a different way from you.

I was told, if you need gear, farm Midas. If you want glamour, queue the dungeon as that class. Otherwise, all is fair game.

You can't justify that needing gear for glamour is more entitled than someone needing it for seals.

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Very good way to put it!
If a player WANTS something from a dungeon, then they should go on the job that can use it and NEED it for them self.
I never expect others to pass equipment for me. My party is just as entitled to the gear as I am regardless of how the gear will be used (ie. seals, glamor, vendor-fodder, etc)

100% no, mainly with the anima having items from it.

If the OP had at least said "need the gear to raise their ilvl" I could have agreed; but if you want the gear for glamour you don't exactly "need" it either xD
At that point it's just secondary use vs secondary use.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

If the OP had at least said "need the gear to raise their ilvl" I could have agreed; but if you want the gear for glamour you don't exactly "need" it either xD

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That is somewhat ironic, considering the utility a person gains from glamour potentially lasts as long as the game exists, whereas iLvL only ever have a temporary value.

Strange priorities you have there, to consider lasting gains less important than short term ones.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

snip

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My personal priorities have nothing to do with it since I consider glamour the true endgame, but while glamour is a great and fun thing, NOT having it never ever keeps you from playing the game.
On the other hand, ilvl is a hard cap that keeps you literally locked out of content, story, everything. Even if you barely make it over such a wall,
you'd still need to better your ilvl to even be considered to be added to the party by other players.
So no matter how much you LIKE glamour, you never literally NEED it to play.

I think it should be buffed. Them ventures don't pay for themselves.

But we all know to agree to disagree so nothing will change.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

So no matter how much you LIKE glamour, you never literally NEED it to play.

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If you want to nitpick this way, you do not need iLvL to play either, because the locked content is not necessary to play. You start the game with only a lvl 1 weapon and the starter gear, of which you can remove everything but the weapon and still play. However...you "want" to progress. You "want" to do more than slay lvl 1 marmots all day. You do not have to however, you'd just "like" to (And your friends probably don't find it all too exciting either). But no matter how much you'd like to...in the end, you can still just keep slaying marmots.

IMO, that's a very poor argument. There is no such thing as true need, there is only wants, desires and their fulfillment. You "want" to play certain piece of content, you need the respective iLvL. You "want" to make a certain outfit, you need the respective pieces. You "want" your Anima, you need the seals. Thus, in my humble opinion, an item should always go to the person who gets the most utility from it in the long run. On principle. That this is hard to actually judge and operationalize is a different matter.

In the end, the dev's decided that you can need on a piece of gear if you play the class or job that it is assigned to. end of story. trying to shame people for needing on a piece of gear because you wanted it for glamour or ilvl or seals is simply ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

In the end, the dev's decided that you can need on a piece of gear if you play the class or job that it is assigned to. end of story. trying to shame people for needing on a piece of gear because you wanted it for glamour or ilvl or seals is simply ridiculous.

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Is it? Would it then not be just as ridiculous to "shame" people for ignoring party finder specifications, such as "Please have a clear already"? After all, the devs decided that you can join these groups. According to your logic, most definitely no.

I find that train of thought dysfunctional. It simply leads to a lot of socially undesirable effects.