What are the best Secondaries for SCH DPS?

Not counting accuracy because that is obvious. But out of the 3, CRT, DET, SS what is the best to gear for to really push the deeps on SCH?

Crit without hesitation

Make your shield go wild if healing
Make your DoT exploded while dps
And make your broil burn when single killing

Crit all the way with acc

ACC and Crit. That is it.

DET used to be good but not anymore, the stat weight nerf doesn't outweigh the benefit of crit shields and damage.

Crit is the number 1 always. Every time my Adloquium crits, it makes me smile :D

Indeed but between det and SS ? They're both similar no ?

Interesting. The main reason I was interested is because while looking at SCH DPS on the logs, the amount of damage that is effected by SS is 90%, of which 40% is made up of DOT damage.

Comparing say 330 stats of each you would have:
SS +5% to 130% of damage. (90% + the additional increase to DOTs 40%)
CRT +4.44% of 100% of damage. Edited due to rounding error
DET +4.5% of 100% of damage.

It seems like SS would be so much better if you aren't concerned about the small % of pet performance.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Interesting. The main reason I was interested is because while looking at SCH DPS on the logs, the amount of damage that is effected by SS is 90%, of which 40% is made up of DOT damage.

Comparing say 330 stats of each you would have:
SS +5% to 130% of damage.
CRT +4.65% of 100% of damage.
DET +4.5% of 100% of damage.

It seems like SS would be so much better if you aren't concerned about the small % of pet performance.

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Do these figures take into account the enhanced pet action on the pet's crits that can increase the scholars spellspeed by 20%?

I would imagine if accuracy was not in the picture it would be crit AND spellspeed to the cap as far as possible because of this interaction.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Interesting. The main reason I was interested is because while looking at SCH DPS on the logs, the amount of damage that is effected by SS is 90%, of which 40% is made up of DOT damage.

Comparing say 330 stats of each you would have:
SS +5% to 130% of damage.
CRT +4.65% of 100% of damage.
DET +4.5% of 100% of damage.

It seems like SS would be so much better if you aren't concerned about the small % of pet performance.

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I don't know how you got those numbers. Do elaborate your findings

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

I don't know how you got those numbers. Do elaborate your findings

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If I remember correctly.

66 SS is both a 1% reduction in Cast/Recast and a 1% increase in DOT damage.

73 DET is a 1% damage increase.

42.90 Crit is 1% Rate/Multi from 5%/0.45.

Pulled from a Theory Crafter site.
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How I got the numbers above:

+330 Stats

SS - 330/66 = 5% (2.375 Cast/Recast from 2.5) + 5% in DOT Damage
DET - 330/73 = 4.52% all Damaging Abilites
CRT - 330/42.9 = +7.7% Crit Rate/Multi. 4.445 on all Damaging Abilities.

CRT Breakdown - Base CRT is 5% with a 0.45 Multiplier or (5*0.45) 2.25% average increase.
7.7 makes that, 12.7% with a 0.527 Multiplier or 6.69% average increase, but we take the base increase out of that, which makes it 4.44% (6.69 - 2.25)

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Although a reduction in Cast should only translate into more Broils since dots are static. 5% seems to come out to ~3.5% gain not 5%.
So 3.5% + 2% from DOTS. 5.5% VS 4.5% should still be better and even more so for AOE.

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

Do these figures take into account the enhanced pet action on the pet's crits that can increase the scholars spellspeed by 20%?

I would imagine if accuracy was not in the picture it would be crit AND spellspeed to the cap as far as possible because of this interaction.

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For sure it would although I'm not sure what is technically still better due to that. @ about 1000 Crit the Enhanced Pet up time is around 9%. So a total increase of 1.8% SS for the duration of a fight.
Theoretically using 1000 SS as well would net an additional 18 SS or 0.25% Damage.

So in the above example of 330 stats it may be something like
SS 5.5%
CRT 4.78%

AFTER gaining high amounts of Crit, I think that Spell Speed is a pretty fair secondary, but you have to weigh it against piety. I'm at 12.7k instead of 1.32k because of the Relic changes (even with compensating by using the 240 Midan Ring.)

240- Word of the Magnate (120 Accuracy/120 Crit-Relic)
240- Augmented Hailstorm Crown of Healing (Lore)
230- Yafaemi Jacket of Healing (WCM) (Until A8S Top)
240- Augmented Hailstorm Gloves of Healing (Lore)
240- Augmented Hailstorm Belt of Healing (Lore)
240- Augmented Hailstorm Bottoms of Healing (Lore)
240- Hailstorm Boots of Healing (Lore)

240- Midan Neckband of Healing (A5s)
240- Midan Earrings of Healing (A5s)
240- Midan Bracelets of Healing (A5s)
240- Midan Ring of Healing (A5s) [Decrease piety loss, while increasing mind)
240- Augmented Primal Ring of Healing (Lore)

Stats With Baked Pipira Pipira as the ideal raid food, but outside of Party. Lore ring is still 230 and has a crit IV instead of Crit V so crit will go up slightly. Crit V can be substitued with Vit V if Vit is needed.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2mg4cpu.jpg

9 Slots have accuracy Vs (+108 +120+354 makes accuracy 582. Good for most content and can cap for a8s with pipira at 599 accuracy.)

My dps went up significantly with the completion of the Relic since I was able to shed my +51 Acc Hands and +36 Accuracy rings. Went from best time of beating the A8s with 12 seconds remaining (1222 DpS) to 25 seconds (1356 DpS). I have noticed that moving from 680ish SS to 780ish SS (if using Sohm Al Tart) has caused my Bio II to slightly misalign if I don't push an extra broil, that could potentially cause Bio, Aero and Miasma to completely fall off, instead of clipping it at 0-2 seconds. At 440 SS I felt significant DPS loss even with 1100+ crit after dropping from 680ish SS to 440ish from upgrade changes like Sephy book to 230 relic, so SS is necessary at least to a point. I'm slightly considerering dropping my pants (;D) for the 240 Midan ones in favor of crit/piety, since the DPS gain from the Lore pants might be a bit marginal compared to the extra crit and MP padding.


Also: Spell Speed boes affect Pets. It benefits Eos the most, because it directly changes her whispering dawn cool down. Mine shaves off 3 seconds at the moment. Selene's Fey wind helps to stack to make her "better" at her embrace spamming. This synergies with the pet actions buff, because the faster she can cast embrace with her high crit rate, the more often she will proc it, which increases DPS (even if again in theory, since I only have logic behind this and no parse data :C). Lastly, the faster that she can cast, the more quickly she can help react if you're incapacitated or have your hands tied to a mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

I don't know how you got those numbers. Do elaborate your findings

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ditto, nor is he even clear what they mean.

Crit all the way even if crit wasn't godly for sch shields. Other than acc you'd basically look at SMN stat weights.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Also: Spell Speed boes affect Pets. It benefits Eos the most, because it directly changes her whispering dawn cool down. Mine shaves off 3 seconds at the moment. Selene's Fey wind helps to stack to make her "better" at her embrace spamming. This synergies with the pet actions buff, because the faster she can cast embrace with her high crit rate, the more often she will proc it, which increases DPS (even if again in theory, since I only have logic behind this and no parse data :C). Lastly, the faster that she can cast, the more quickly she can help react if you're incapacitated or have your hands tied to a mechanic.

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Thank you for your insight into how you find it works under practical conditions (Raids etc), and that you find you do require SS to perform optimally DPS wise.

You are correct that SS does decrease the recast of Whispering Down due to it being labelled Spell compared to the rest of the Lily's skills. Unfortunately the other skills labelled Ability as well as Embrace (even though it's labelled as Spell) are unaffected.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

ditto, nor is he even clear what they mean.

Crit all the way even if crit wasn't godly for sch shields. Other than acc you'd basically look at SMN stat weights.

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If there is anything you would like to know specifically plz let me know.

As far as I was aware, the general effect of Secondaries on Damage is fairly well known.

Also, I don't think that looking at SMN secondaries would be a good rule of thumb as there are significant differences between SMN and SCH in that regard.

SMN Damage is made up of about only 60% that is effected by SS of which only 30% is DOTS, due to having Death Flare, a Pet that does damage and is unaffected by SS, Pain Flare, Fester as well as their single target main spam spell is only 80 potency VS SCH which has Broil at 170 Potency.

SCH has an additional DOT Aero, and the only skill unaffected by SS is Energy Drain which only accounts for around 10% of damage at most. Because they don't have Contagion their dots are used more frequently as well as are significantly more potent then the majority of SCH's toolkit.

No questions here, just stating your numbers are pulled out of nowhere and don't coincide with pretty much everybody else's calculations on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

No questions here, just stating your numbers are pulled out of nowhere and don't coincide with pretty much everybody else's calculations on the matter.

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Which numbers?

Current Crit Chance Formula ((CRT-354)/(858*5))+0.05 (330)/(4290)+ 0.05 = 12.7%
Current Crit Hit Formula ((CRT-354)/(858*5))+1.45 (330)/(4290) + 1.45 = 1.527
Combined CRT over the baseline of 5%/1.45 Multi = (12.7% * 0.527)-(5% * 0.45) = 4.44%
DET Damage Modifier (1+DET/8079) (1+330/8079) = 1.0408
GCD/Cast Modifier 2.51-((SS-334)/2641) (Different for 3s + Casts) 2.51 - ((330)/(2641) = 2.385
SS Spell Modifier ((SS-354)/7722+1) - (330/7722+1) = 1.0427

Or the values I pulled from FFLogs to compare what each ability a SCH does damage wise during the current content?

Even if you simply took the SMN weights of: Source - FFXIV Gear Calculator
CRT - 0.181
DET - 0.159
SS - 0.138

http://www.fflogs.com/reports/mLzpjM...done&source=10

Then factored out the Pet 17.59%, Deathflare 15.39%, Fester 7.4%, Aerial Blast 6.31%, Pain Flare 4.67%, + the other small amounts 1%.

In this example 52.36% of damage dealt is completely unaffected by SS and yet it is weighted @ 0.138 compared to DET of 0.159. So how much would it be worth if you cut out all those other factors?

So at between 50%-60% effectiveness it has a weight of 0.138 on SMN.
On SCH it has an effectiveness of ~90% (not counting DOTS because they are the common denominator between SMN/SCH anyway) so would it make sense that SS would have a weight in the area of 0.207? (0.138/0.6)(0.9)?

*** Going to go with the lower end and say between 0.190-0.195

So like ~20% better than DET if that is the case.

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Although a reduction in Cast should only translate into more Broils since dots are static. 5% seems to come out to ~3.5% gain not 5%.
So 3.5% + 2% from DOTS. 5.5% VS 4.5% should still be better and even more so for AOE

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4.5% VS 5.5%? -> 22%. So really close to what I mentioned earlier.

Random question, but for the 20% spell speed buff for DoTs is your spell speed taken into account during the initial cast or for each tick?

Basically does the 8 sec buff mean that your DoTs will do more damage for the next 8 secs or any DoTs cast during the next 8 secs will hit like a truck kinda like raging strikes.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Which numbers?

Current Crit Chance Formula ((CRT-354)/(858*5))+0.05 (330)/(4290)+ 0.05 = 12.7%
Current Crit Hit Formula ((CRT-354)/(858*5))+1.45 (330)/(4290) + 1.45 = 1.527
Combined CRT over the baseline of 5%/1.45 Multi = (12.7% * 0.527)-(5% * 0.45) = 4.44%
DET Damage Modifier (1+DET/8079) (1+330/8079) = 1.0408
GCD/Cast Modifier 2.51-((SS-334)/2641) (Different for 3s + Casts) 2.51 - ((330)/(2641) = 2.385
SS Spell Modifier ((SS-354)/7722+1) - (330/7722+1) = 1.0427

Or the values I pulled from FFLogs to compare what each ability a SCH does damage wise during the current content?

Even if you simply took the SMN weights of: Source - FFXIV Gear Calculator
CRT - 0.181
DET - 0.159
SS - 0.138

http://www.fflogs.com/reports/mLzpjM...done&source=10

Then factored out the Pet 17.59%, Deathflare 15.39%, Fester 7.4%, Aerial Blast 6.31%, Pain Flare 4.67%, + the other small amounts 1%.

In this example 52.36% of damage dealt is completely unaffected by SS and yet it is weighted @ 0.138 compared to DET of 0.159. So how much would it be worth if you cut out all those other factors?

So at between 50%-60% effectiveness it has a weight of 0.138 on SMN.
On SCH it has an effectiveness of ~90% (not counting DOTS because they are the common denominator between SMN/SCH anyway) so would it make sense that SS would have a weight in the area of 0.207? (0.138/0.6)(0.9)?

*** Going to go with the lower end and say between 0.190-0.195

So like ~20% better than DET if that is the case.

4.5% VS 5.5%? -> 22%. So really close to what I mentioned earlier.

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Oh wow that's bad. Those stat weights are the result after figuring all those things in, that's how they get how important each one is (and in SMN's case why there's a subtle difference if you auto-attack with your book "book-smacking"). So you're basically saying 2+2 =4 but then hitting enter on a calculator one too many times and getting 6.

Crit > det > speed. That's the END result. Not the middle for you to then play around with again. At least now I know where you made the mistake.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Random question, but for the 20% spell speed buff for DoTs is your spell speed taken into account during the initial cast or for each tick?

Basically does the 8 sec buff mean that your DoTs will do more damage for the next 8 secs or any DoTs cast during the next 8 secs will hit like a truck kinda like raging strikes.

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dots calculate what each tic will do when applied. So yes, like raging strikes, better to cast while it's up. But it's never going to be worth clipping for that.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

dots calculate what each tic will do when applied. So yes, like raging strikes, better to cast while it's up. But it's never going to be worth clipping for that.

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Of course not, but unlike a Smn, Sch can have their pet auto attack without a monster around. So long as you don't completely leave your fairy in the dust you can have your fairy spam embrace on itself and have a fairly decent chance of having the status effect proc while running to the next encounter.

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Also, are you sure Det > SS for DPS? That doesn't make a lot of sense since the only thing that isn't affected by SS is Energy Drain unlike Smn that has Death Flare, Pain Flare, and Fester.

In addition, Sch's DoTs hit for 10% harder due to Cleric's stance (well, slightly less since they have more base Int), and has an additional DoT with Aero.

So if the above numbers are correct where 66 SS is a 1% increase while 72 Det is a 1% I have to be missing something if Det > SS

idk what to say, the sps buff is there but it's not as potent as it could be? All those stat weights are up to date taking the buff into account. "The above numbers" if you mean Judge_Xero's, no they're definitely not right.

If anyone was guaranteed to be right just because they showed some numbers nobody would ever fail a math test.

And yeah, definitely no harm to spamming embrace between pulls hoping for a proc, both for healing and offensive reasons.

Yeah, looking around for the SS and Det numbers. They are being difficult to find.

https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/ And remember, those are the weights with everything taken into consideration. ...lol

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/ And remember, those are the weights with everything taken into consideration. ...lol

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I know where to find the weights. I more meant where are the numbers of how much Spell Speed and Det affect Dots. I found the spell speed one [(1+(skillspeed-354)*0.000138)]. Looking for the Det ones.

While Smn and Sch are similar, Det is going to be a LOT more potent on Smn than on Sch due to their number of instant cast high potency off GDC abilities that won't be affected by Spell Speed at all.

Well, not sure he has them posted but dervy's weights include that factor so he'd know them.

And yeah I was just sayin as a rough guess to say SCH weights for dps would be similar to SMN. Given that SMN weighs crit over det and those both affect the same group of things it'd make sense long before considering crit's healing potency for SCH to go crit.

Since the topic is "accuracy + what for SCH melds" speed shouldn't even be in this topic. It's not 2nd place to crit, it's 3rd. If you could max out melds for acc *and* crit *and* det on gear let alone start to consider speed after all that we'd never need more than 1 set of gear! And anything without overmelding capabilities you're never going to max out acc to begin with, so whether gear has max crit or not should also not be in this topic.

Sch weights won't be similar to smn. Det is last in line. We don't have anything to funnel our raw damage into, outside of energy drain and broil, which pale compared to Fester, Painflare, Deathflare, pet attacks or even buffed ruin III under dreadwyrm. It would be tietary, behind accuracy and crit, but still more powerful than det. We are an entirely different breed of gimp. xD

The question they are asking is if you were to cut out these non dot based attacks, how would det compare to spell speed. Most of an SCHs damage comes from his DoTs, way more so than SMN, because they have much larger Aetherflow abilities that can outweigh the entire duration of any DoT. Sch does not.

Look. Everything that SMN does is affected by both crit and det.

If SMN values crit more than det it's also better for SCH.

You don't get to the point you max acc and crit and have room for anything else, so anything else is moot point.

Oh, and yes a SCH dps'ing will use energy drain depending on the situation.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Look. Everything that SMN does is affected by both crit and det.

If SMN values crit more than det it's also better for SCH.

You don't get to the point you max acc and crit and have room for anything else, so anything else is moot point.

Oh, and yes a SCH dps'ing will use energy drain depending on the situation.

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Yeah energy drain is used frequently, but det scales with potency. It scales higher with fester than it does with energy drain. Det works with DoTs as well, but is boosted by a SMNs core dps from aetherflow/aethertrail. This causes the weights to skew towards determination. Scholar doesn't rely on aetherflow as its core DPS. That's carried by DoTs, especially so during phases that need more heals, which in turn causes less boils.

You could be right, or it could be negligible, or SS could be right. We won't really know until someone sits down and tests it at full scale.

The reason Det is better than Spell speed for Smn is like more that half of Smns toolkit isn't affected by Spell Speed, AT ALL. With Sch it's only Energy Drain.

You are correct that the totem pole is Acc until cap> Crit, but then after that I'm curious whether spell speed beats det or not.

At least for the theoretical expert roulette farming armor where you don't need Acc it's Crit then what stat?

Here you go: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/UTIX

This is what you'd aim for. Hits 599 acc where A8S has 600 cap, you could switch out a crit meld if you felt you absolutely needed to avoid that 0.01% miss chance.

The only slot there I had to think for even a second which was better because of det vs speed was boots. And even for SMN, who would weigh DET higher than SCH for the reasons you said, would still grab the boots with speed/pie over det/pie because of the #s.

If you're stuck with lore pieces instead of midan you're even more in need of crit melds or go with mhach drops.

And the other thing to say about SCH dps weights would be that PIE has a weight to it that'd be impossible to gauge. It helps because it widens the window of dps'ing without fear of running dry, but how much depends not just on you but other people; how much damage they take, are people likely to need raises etc. It could even be better than crit for dps purposes depending on how much dps time it adds to your individual situation; if you were undergeared enough that you'd normally need every bit of mp just to do your healer job extra PIE would have an infinite dps weighting.

Those numbers are outdated for Sch. They are the ones from 2.0. They haven't updated Sch weights yet for 3.0 which is why people are using Smn as a reference.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Those numbers are outdated for Sch. They are the ones from 2.0. They haven't updated Sch weights yet for 3.0 which is why people are using Smn as a reference.

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Yup, I ignored those stat weights and put in the smn ones. Not sure it saved my choices for that along with the gear choices, but again, none of it effectively changes which gear you'd go for. And if you get Midan or any other book you're even more stuck melding acc.

Edit: and it turns out Xero guy here actually got those numbers from Dervy, which idk why you wouldn't just say so, makes a lot more sense to say "I got these from the guy who started the math" rather than "I took some other guy's numbers and tweaked em myself!"

Got the link for smn weights without pets:

http://puu.sh/pMouu/3fc3b7849c.png

Which does put speed above det.

...and in the end still doesn't change what you'd do on sch, but good to know I guess?

FWIW Dervy mentioned on Reddit not too long ago that SpS would likely be higher than Det for WHM DPS because ~70% of their DPS is made of Damage over Time so I can't see it being much different for SCH, especially when you factor in the unique Crit/SpS interaction we get from Enhanced Pet Actions. The difference must be absolutely miniscule though if it's being argued back and forth.

3.4 and the final ilv cap for this expansion will very likely see SpS take over Det by a larger margin simply because it scales better.

I still would like to see serious testing from more than one source for the sake of not having to rely on a single source as gospel. I'd do it myself but it's so time-consuming...

Single source is fine long as it's thorough. The math isn't hard, it's just a matter of putting it all together.

And we're getting off track (ish) saying that about whm dps, the thread intent was SCH specifically. And the only point to making distinctions is to see which gear is better and what to meld, which becomes acc > crit > no room for anything else.

But yeah after seeing those guy's #s coming from the same source as the original stat weights they're based on makes the whole thing a lot more credible. Speed > det for sch. Whm too. Ast may be different especially if they stick to their guaranteed acc actions. Even as SCH you could do that and not go for acc at all, though OP clearly stated he wasn't going that route.

I don't agree that taking WHM as a reference when it comes to damage over time and stat weights is getting off-track(ish).

SCH relies on Damage over Time even moreso than WHM so I really doubt their stat weights would be radically different, and Dervy never mentioned SCH, so you need to go with what little info you have, eh?

I do agree that there's very little choice to be made as it's going to be accuracy > crit > choose your boots (do I really want to spend a twine and Lore when I have Midan boots).

The thing is even a SMN who weighs DET higher than a SCH would wouldn't choose those det boots over the speed ones with 20~ more speed and no other offensive secondaries on either.

My point was more "do I really want to spend 495 lore and a twine for a slot that is filled with something that's perfectly serviceable", but yeah you're right. It's hardly going to make a difference anyway (especially with PIE being harder to value - I'd personally value PIE more for progression but this is getting off-track so I'll just stop here).

+

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Edit: and it turns out Xero guy here actually got those numbers from Dervy, which idk why you wouldn't just say so, makes a lot more sense to say "I got these from the guy who started the math" rather than "I took some other guy's numbers and tweaked em myself!"

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Well I wanted to start a discussion on what people's thoughts were. Or if everyone would just regurgitate the whole crt>det>SS idea.
I also didn't want to link directly to Dervy's work since I'm not sure exactly why he was Forum banned. But I'm sure it was obvious where it was from as they are the most well known.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Oh wow that's bad. Those stat weights are the result after figuring all those things in, that's how they get how important each one is (and in SMN's case why there's a subtle difference if you auto-attack with your book "book-smacking"). So you're basically saying 2+2 =4 but then hitting enter on a calculator one too many times and getting 6.

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Please elaborate on this. I understand that the weights are made up using the stat contribution of an entire build, focusing on the highest possible stat values for each. Which it has to since while DET is a linear change while SS and CRT are both exponential, as well as some values change simply due to higher MD/AP and INT

I didn't base my thoughts on SS off converting the SMN weights to work with SCH either. I only used that as an example, and since secondary stats have similar contribution based on WD/Potency/Attack Power it was plausible to cross-reference the values to SMN and then cut down it's toolkit to SCH level as a direct comparison, since SMN's further toolkit does not offer anything that would greatly alter the effect of those secondary stats. i.e. Guaranteed Crit, or proc system. That and as far as gear progression SMN and SCH can stack very close to the same values of secondary stats, or at least within the same range.

i.e. SCH CRT 850, SS 750. SMN CRT 1000, SS 750

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It is true there isn't really a whole lot you can do given the current gear as even with building for SS/CRT you are going to have a value of CRT higher than SS and very little choice between DET/SS, but overall I figured it would be a fun discussion.

Did some quick testing just to give a better idea of the relation of the secondaries.

Just set my gear so I had a total of 684 Spell Speed (+330)

Got a baseline Potency/Damage Value for Broil by doing about a 1000 casts to get the min/max. Broil 1783 - 1972. With a Median of 1877 or 11.044 Damage/Potency.

Bio with the same gear - BIO 437 - 483 -> 460 Median -> 11.5 Damage/Potency

4% Extra Damage/Potency

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Broil - 1433 - 1584 - Median 1508.5 -> 8.8735 Damage/Potency

Bio 351 - 388 - 369.5 -> 9.2375

Another test with +0 DET, same SS Value + 330 -> 4%

So SCH with the 90% Damage effected by SS + 10% ED and 40% DOT damage.

3.5% from extra Broil casts, and 1.6% from extra DOT damage. (4% X 0.4) -> Total 5.1%

It would require enough CRT to reach 13.75% or 375 CRT VS the 330 of SS to reach the same value.

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+660 CRT 20.4% (60.4 Multi) 10% Damage Average Increase.
+660 SPD +8% DOT Damage + 7.2% from extra Broils -> (8% X 0.4) + 7.2 = 10.4

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So just about 690 CRT to hit the same 10.4% value, so the gap does close. (Due to CRT's much higher gains per point, it just starts out lower)

How is DET @ that value? Somewhere around 8.6%

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Unless anyone has other information to supply, I'm fairly certain that SS>CRT>DET for purely DPS purposes on SCH up until you hit both a CRT and SS value of ~1000 at which point the combination of Enhanced Pet and the SS Value will make CRT worth the same.

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How much does it matter? Well the loss of pet heals could amount to ~150 HP per Embrace from not stacking DET instead. Since you will be stacking CRT and SS anyway, that should be the only thing to consider.

On the topic of numbers I don't fully understand... A question has been nagging me for a while. I see a lot of people repeating that Critical offers diminishing returns, but as much as I've tried looking for more in-depth info on this I haven't really hit the nail yet. Could anyone do me a favor and explain to me how the gains from Crit offer diminishing returns?

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

On the topic of numbers I don't fully understand... A question has been nagging me for a while. I see a lot of people repeating that Critical offers diminishing returns, but as much as I've tried looking for more in-depth info on this I haven't really hit the nail yet. Could anyone do me a favor and explain to me how the gains from Crit offer diminishing returns?

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It's old information. Before it has diminishing value. It's different from diminishing returns. For example:
If you have 5% chance to crit and get another 5%, your amount of crits would double in number (+100% amount of crits)
But if you have 10% chance to crit and get another 5%, you only get half the value out of the same 5% (+50% amount of crits)

This effectively would result in diminishing value. But as of 3.0 you also get +1% crit value for each 1% crit chance you gain. This (nearly) completely negates whatever diminishing value crit had before.

Aaah, okay. I think that makes sense. I had seen the whole diminishing returns thing get thrown around in various different threads and I never knew what it really meant.