The "Removing GC Restrictions Will Increase Interest In PvP" Caveat

While I agree removing GC restrictions might help enkindle more interest in PvP, I don't believe it would be the magic fix for one of FFXIV's least popular features. I say that because the Feast did just that, and still only saw a small spike in activity, and even then, much of that was people initially trying to get tomes quickly, without any real interest in actual PvP gameplay. Sure some of us established ourselves and continue to do so as avid PvPers in there, but we were likely the ones doing it even with GC restrictions in place already.

That said, here's a suggestion: As Grand Companies, lore-wise, are comprised of both normal national armies as well as mercenaries/mercenary groups (i.e. FCs), implement a system to allow players to queue in a Mercenary bracket: you will be placed on any of the 3 teams randomly. Allow for light/full party premades, as I'm sure many players have friends they'd want to team with, regardless of what standard they fight under. Now here's the catch: If placed on a GC team that ISN'T yours, you take a slight reduction in Wolf Marks/PvP XP. This is to maintain a balance and not completely kill off queueing for your actual GC. Possibly allow this point reduction to be bypassed if the player queues via a roulette.

Thoughts?

Restriction doesn't exist in feast.
Didn't make pvp any more interesting for my fc... people just grind during the rush for mount achievement, then never again.

I noted that the restriction was removed for the Feast, and it wasn't the key to boosting PvP content popularity. Because some people say "if they removed it, more people would try it", I wanted to refute that claim.

The only thing that will make PvP more interesting is more people interested in it. Granted, while I'm not crazy about grindy rewards, making them too itasy would attract people who are purely interested in getting the rewards then never playing again. Still, more than just reward incentive is needed to liven up PvP. I encourage anyone even mildly curious to just try it. It's the best way to uderstand it, whether you grow to like or dislike it.

The main argument for GC removal is not that more people would try out PvP (sure there might be some), but that the current people interested wouldn't have to wait for the stars to align.

There most likely is 72~ people in queue quite often, but all 72 of the people could be in the same GC.

It doesn't help that, universally across all servers, the breakdown of GC membership is Adders> Maelstrom> Flames, according to the last Eorzea Census.

I would hope that SE is becoming aware of these metrics and planning to adjust accordingly

Apples to oranges. Feast fizzled out because it's a competitive mode and not everyone has a team dedicated to it. While it was active though, it was only so active because there were no restrictions.

Frontline is a casual mode that many people would prefer to play with their buds. Can't always do that with GC restrictions. Furthermore all people do anyway is bandwagon to the strongest GC hoping for free wins, toppling the company populations even more.

Just kill the problem at its root and remove the restrictions. No more GC hopping, no more 72 players waiting for just one GC to have members, more players who can play with their friends without feeling like they have to start over.

Mercenary idea's fine, but it feels like just a bandaid for a gushing wound.

Feast wasn't affected by the lack of GC restriction but it IS affected by the class restriction. Frontlines has no class restriction, meaning you are just waiting for 8/24 players for each GC. If it wasn't locked to GCs, you would need only 24 total players across all servers in the group to queue and you'd have a match going.

I think Frontlines serves as a reminder why there's a class/job restriction in the Feast. Lest you want to run into 3 MNK/WAR/MCH, 1 AST parties, or perhaps have never seen an AST (in Frontlines) dash in, Celestial Op, then have the remaining all BLM/SMN comp multi-Commeteor the stunned targets. To

Of course, players are always going to find some way to game the system, and overall, PvP as a whole lacks popularity for more than just GC/job restrictions, but something's got to give. Accepting that it is the way it is does little for finding a solution.

I've played matches where our party was 7 tanks and a dps. I've played matches where we had perfect synergy between the classes. Outside of premades, it's random who you get, and the mode let's you switch classes. I would gladly play hundreds of games where I have no healers whatsoever if it meant I actually got reasonable queue times.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

It doesn't help that, universally across all servers, the breakdown of GC membership is Adders> Maelstrom> Flames, according to the last Eorzea Census.

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It is actually 28% Maelstrom, 35% Flames and 37% Adders for 2015.

That's not actually a very huge disparity, when you think about it. Compare to 19% Healers, 19% Tanks and 62% DPS and you have 50% more DPS than the 1-1-2/2-2-4 setup supports, something the feast suffered from.

That's all just potential, tho. We all know that in practice, tanks are not as common as healers on average and likewise, a GC that is overall underrepresented might be overrepresented in PvP. We also don't know how the role distribution in PvP looks like. Heck, we don't even know if a game isn't starting because we're waiting on that one last adder or because we're 5/5/5. Transparency is rather lacking.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

That's all just potential, tho. We all know that in practice, tanks are not as common as healers on average and likewise, a GC that is overall underrepresented might be overrepresented in PvP. We also don't know how the role distribution in PvP looks like. Heck, we don't even know if a game isn't starting because we're waiting on that one last adder or because we're 5/5/5. Transparency is rather lacking.

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Just having it show the number of people queueing for each company akin to what is done with roles would go a long way to help balance them out and reduce complaints from people having no clue why they are waiting for so long. I'm also pretty sure that would be much easier to implement than getting rid of GCs in frontlines, though that should be the end goal.

The motivation behind removing GC restrictions is not to increase interest in PvP. The idea behind removing them is to fill queue slots faster by switching the queue to a first come first serve style.

The way things work now, GC restrictions ensure that the queue times of the most populated GC are at the mercy of the least populated GC, because the match can only go through so long as all 3 GC's have a complete team to play. We already have a small pool of players to choose from, so further dividing it with strict matchmaking requirements just makes it worse. To give an example:

With GC restrictions on: If Maelstrom and Flames have two full teams queued (Mael: 48 players / Flames: 48 players / Total of 96 players), but Adders only has one team (24 players) queued, then only one of Maelstrom's and Flame's teams will go through the queue. The other two full teams they have will have to wait in limbo until enough players on Adder's end queue up to create a second match. If Adders simply doesn't have the players to fill a second match, then that match can't happen until the first match ends, which is a damn long wait that could be made even longer if the number of players queued isn't even.

With GC restrictions off: With the same example as above (Mael: 48 / Flames: 48 / Adders: 24), the combined total of queued players from all three GC's is 120 players. GC affiliation is irrelevant. The first 72 players of those 120 get into a full match of 72-man Front Lines. What is left is 48 players. With GC restrictions, those players would have to wait for all 3 GC's to have even numbers to get in. However, without those restrictions, those remaining 48 players can make two additional matches of 24-man Front Lines.

This is simplifying quite a bit, but obviously the second situation is the more favourable one if we're interested in actually getting people to play as many matches as possible during their available log time.

Now, would that generate more interest in PvP? It's possible, but that's not the goal. The goal is to drive the average queue time down, so that we can get as many people who are already interested in PvP, people spending hours waiting one queue times, into actual matches. If queue times were lower, then people who don't have the available log time each night to wait 30+ minutes for a match might actually try. People who prefer to party with friends but couldn't due to GC restrictions might also take an interest, but, again, those things (if they happened) would just be a happy side effect. The goal is to get those wait times down. There are a lot of other ways that they could do this, but removing those GC restrictions is by far the simplest and most effective thing that they can do right now.

Some players think pvp:
1- is not fun
2- is too long to queue
3- lack reward [completely unbalanced with pve]
4- Pvp set is ugly,and don't have a lot of use for pvp, and it's ilvel205 so we won't it use for pve.
After this you can say the feast was without restriction, you think pvp is not popular at all, it's true it's not popular, but the feast 8vs8 was just even worst in popularity, because players got to queue only for seize and 4vs4 feast when the season started.
I guess a lot of players don't like the medals mechanics at all, and was just doing 4vs4 feast to get in top100.

In tend to proof most of the players only doing this for rewards, and players doing pvp for fun is a few, afterall you got the rewards and after you can get others reward by doing pve content.

Even if i like arena pvp, Front seem more popular than arena, the small community is divided about it.
about GC restriction : why think it won't change anything in the queue, players is asking this to get rid of unblanced population in GC, even if the community stay small, it's seem a logic to me it will make front queue faster without this restriction, you tell it's don't make any change of the feast 8vs8, you are right, because instead of queueing feast 8vs8, players was queuing seize to get casual pvp and feast 4vs4 to get toxic drugs and maybe the reward of the top 100 XD.
I even heard some players saying: i don't like the feast and the mount is ugly so i don't queue the feast, i can get 24 players seize instead.

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Originally Posted by Cleanse

The main argument for GC removal is not that more people would try out PvP (sure there might be some), but that the current people interested wouldn't have to wait for the stars to align.

There most likely is 72~ people in queue quite often, but all 72 of the people could be in the same GC.

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This.

The other thing that needs to happen is that the PVP gear you grind needs to actually do something, because it is now literally useless other than cool glamour.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

It doesn't help that, universally across all servers, the breakdown of GC membership is Adders> Maelstrom> Flames, according to the last Eorzea Census.

I would hope that SE is becoming aware of these metrics and planning to adjust accordingly

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The overall GC breakdown doesn't mean much. We're talking about the PvPers on each datacenter (friends tend to all pick the same GC to group together). When one GC has long wait times and others are much shorter, that shows that a skewed interest is being shown per GC, per datacenter.

Also, as an aside, I am unsure if rank, language etc have any part in it, but those also are things that splinter an already small group of players.

Finally, removal of GC _could_ also potentially balance out matches. Organized groups will potentially be more spread apart and not all in one GC/team.

Youa re wrogn OP, Feast had low que tiems for healers and tanks because of no GC restrictions.

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Originally Posted by Casmir_Chev

Youa re wrogn OP, Feast had low que tiems for healers and tanks because of no GC restrictions.

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And not because it was newer and tanks/healers generally have lower queue times due to a smaller pool of both jobs and players queuing as them? I'm not attacking your point, but I am rounding out the spectrum with the factors that must be considered as well.

And my larger point is exactly as I'd said. Removing GC restrictions - which I want as well as anyone else - is not going to be the magic fix that suddenly increases interest in PvP. Not when you have players that admit they avoid it, ignore it, or sarcastically crack "what's PvP?"

The feast have long queue, because players play front and also because of the healer/tank need also.
The same happen when you enter in the front, i am almost all time forced to switch to healer, because my team is full of dps.
exemple : 80/100 of the want to queue as dps in pvp, it's an exemple but i don't think it's far from reality XD

Seriously, no one wants GC restriction. They know we don't want GC restriction. It's basically just a case of them not giving a shit at this point. Remove GC, Make the team names Claws, Fangs and whatever like feast. I don't see what is so hard. "Give us feedback, We listen" Yeah okay.

Hopefully they add a level 60 version of the older maps too that would also generate interest

we can't stop to ask to remove GC restriction, till when it will be removed, players will ask.
Afterall players is asking this for 2 years already.
because it's obvious the queue can be better without this restriction.

I certainly don't disagree with your statement, kensatsu. I suppose I should clarify my stance a bit:

If we want to attract more players to try PvP, for one, they have to have a competitive spirit (on Goblin server, I'm sad to say that is not all that common), then we need to both lead by example and be ready to teach. I'm of the camp that believes experience is the best teacher, but some players need a bit more than that. We have to be the leaders, the field commanders, the rallypoints, cheerleaders, motivators, and if necessary, the tough coaches when they need it.

I mean only to say that removal of GC restrictions will not increase interest alone. The PvP community itself will make that difference ultimately.

The long 30+ min queue times are hurting PvP.

This past week on Aether a good portion of the PvPers swapped GCs and "rebalanced" each GCs population. Queues were pretty good all week. This to me is good proof GC restrictions are hurting PvP.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I mean only to say that removal of GC restrictions will not increase interest alone.

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You're not wrong, but it is the first step in the process.

Saying that it's the players' responsibility to be good representatives of PvP is fine and dandy, but we cannot represent a game mode which doesn't have the support of its creator. That's like asking us to be salesmen without a product to sell. Consider the selling features that we have to work with:

• Hour + queue times.
• Can't queue with friends unless in the same GC
• Inefficient time to reward ratio.
• PvP gear is useless.
• Vendors provide NO alternative uses for currency, making that currency useless.
• Limited rewards/achievements (none for healers at all).
• Rewards we do have are ridiculously difficult to get, due to lonq queues and a 1 in 3 chance of winning.

These are problems that the players cannot fix. The ball is clearly in SE's court. They have to provide a strong foundation before we can take up the torch and generate some interest on our own, because, right now, we have almost nothing to work with. Removing GC restrictions would be a HUGE first step in this process.

People queue for what they can get into. If queue times are astronomical, then there's no point in queuing. So long as people know that they can get two or three roulette's done in the time it takes to get into ONE match of PvP, then they won't even bother to queue. People want to actually play the game, not stare at a clock. They also want to play with friends, so limiting team compositions to specific GC's is no good. Remove those two problems, and it's possible that people will see PvP as a favourable queue option over other content. Throw in a better vendor system on top of that, and then we can talk about what the players can do to create a more welcoming community. SE has to put their fair share of effort in before we can, because, right now, they're not even trying to cater to the players who already play the game mode, let alone new ones.

They should include bots in PVP, I mean I still wont queue for PVP because I find it boring, but it might help if bot were added. Just like the Chocobo racing has bots. Make queue time max 3 min if not enough players show up add bots, Depnding if you queue up for 8 24 or 72.

or make PVP fun

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

They should include bots in PVP, I mean I still wont queue for PVP because I find it boring, but it might help if bot were added. Just like the Chocobo racing has bots. Make queue time max 3 min if not enough players show up add bots, Depnding if you queue up for 8 24 or 72.

or make PVP fun

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Someone already made this suggestion before, it might have even been you I don't remember, but it was a bad idea then and still is now. Nobody views chocobo racing as a serious competitive mode. And you wanna pull frontlines down even closer to that level when it's already regarded as a casual non competitive form of PVP? It's fine that you don't enjoy competing against people but you should probably with hold comments then on game features which are supposed to do just that (have players compete against each other).

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

I still wont queue for PVP because I find it boring . . . or make PVP fun

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This is purely your opinion, and while I respect it as such, it offers little to the discussion here. I would ask that you either be more constructive in commentary, or disregard the topic entirely as you already stated you both find it boring and wouldn't queue for it anyways.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

Nobody views chocobo racing as a serious competitive mode.

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Which is a bit of a shame, because it has higher potential than the regular PvP modes, as it's standalone and not affected by PvE changes/mechanics.

You're right . it won't magically increase interest. However restrictions in place decrease interest in pvp. Anyone new waits for 30 +mins then suddenly they're not that interested anymore. You can't even do much while in queue. Then if they picked a different gc than friends that further decreases interest. Removing something that decreases interest is just as good as adding something to increase it.