Obligatory Difficulty Discussion: The Weeping City of Mhach

I'm actually really happy with the balance and difficulty of the Weeping City at the time of launch. My first attempt was a few days after it was released so most of the party was new, but we still managed to defeat each boss. We did, of course, have to stop for a quick strategy discussion before jumping into the fight, but I actually really appreciated this; it slowed the pace down from the typical face roll into what a 24-man raid should be, a cooperative engagement.

Then we got to Ozma. I love this fight. At times I've felt the way SE designs 24-man fights to divide players into discreet groups to be a bit ham-fisted, see Cetus and Irminsul/Sawtooth. In my opinion, Ozma was a great way to divide the larger party into smaller groups. There's micro-level strategy the individual groups have to deal with that also have macro-level implications; genius.

TL;DR: Weeping City of Mhach is well balanced and well designed and I hope to see more content just like this.

Agreed love the whole 24 stratégie
And also the fact that this is a slacker killer instance

You cannot be lazy or your team will see it and the alliance will feel it...
And you will get kick out !

It was fun to learn and do the first, I'd say, five times. Possibly more if you're stretching it out a bit more than I did.

Then it became a chore like anything else, except worse, as you cannot enter the "farm-mode" state of mind engaged to make chores more bearable.
I'm probably still going to grudgingly run it once a week, simply to get the Mhachi matter and thus a free 200k gil from materia, but ugh...I'd rather never enter that place again if I'm honest. If they're going to make raids like that, for the love of all that is holy, don't put in RNG based drops, so I don't feel pressured to torture myself more than once a week >_>

The only problem I have with Weeping City is that ONE person can basically wipe the entire raid.
Happened to us like 4 times before abandon on Ozma.

Our healer couldn't place the meteors when they got marked and we just kept dying.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

The only problem I have with Weeping City is that ONE person can basically wipe the entire raid.
Happened to us like 4 times before abandon on Ozma. Our healer couldn't place the meteors when they got marked and we just kept dying.

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That's unfortunate. And I do hope you don't think the solution would be to reduce the difficult of content. I would argue that SE does have some obligation to create a fun and enjoyable experience for these types of players that may never be suited for content like weeping city or Savage/Ex encounters, but it should not be at the expense of players like myself who enjoy more challenging content.

I actually remember a time when dungeons were difficult and I would have to sleep excess enemies so our tank did not get pummeled, but this is probably out of the scope of this discussion.

my last run of weeping city we had a party of 4 summoners and a bard, we were nicknamed team life support, but we managed to et through just fine, its a lot easier having those res's on hand tbh but i think the difficulty is nice, on the ozma thing, i kind of would like to see an alliance raid much like FF6's final area, where you split into 3 teams to beat different bosses and hit switches to open up a path where all 3 teams meet at the final boss or something.

I did the raid on the 1st day, and about twice a week since. I've seen a steady increase in competence in groups as folks came to understand the mechanics, and people stepping up to make sure new to-the-raid players are given instruction and such. It's been nice to see.

The difficulty is only too hard if you use VA as a ruler, and VA is now so easy it's a poor one. WC will never be a place where one can put your mind in park and run through. The mechanics will always demand attention, as they are unforgiving. All of the bosses have an insta-death move (Ozma more of a mechanic then move) and they happen fast. But all are fair, and easily handled if one pays attention.

I feel most peoples problem is that one needs to count on 23 other folks to do the same. And that can be frustrating, moreso when you just want to get your coin and get on to other things. But other then 1st day I've never been in a group that gave up. It's doable, and people learn. I feel it's well balanced.

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Originally Posted by Daeney

That's unfortunate. And I do hope you don't think the solution would be to reduce the difficult of content. I would argue that SE does have some obligation to create a fun and enjoyable experience for these types of players that may never be suited for content like weeping city or Savage/Ex encounters, but it should not be at the expense of players like myself who enjoy more challenging content.

I actually remember a time when dungeons were difficult and I would have to sleep excess enemies so our tank did not get pummeled, but this is probably out of the scope of this discussion.

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I don't want it easier, it's super fun. I actually really like Weeping/Wiping City. It's just silly that one person can cause 24 people to wipe. I'd rather have the person get instagibbed than 24 people by one wrong meteor. But some people just can't do mechanics. Even at i230 level 60.

WC was never difficult, just new for that first week.

Now everyone knows the mechanics.
Now a group actually drops for the spider lady.
Now people actually watch for Megadeath.
Now people actually know what Ozma shapes do.
Hair lady was always a push over (or it could be that all the people who would have struggled with her never got past Ozma in that first week).

What should be noted regarding 24 mans in HW isn't that WC was unnaturally hard, but that VA was laughably easy.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

The only problem I have with Weeping City is that ONE person can basically wipe the entire raid.
Happened to us like 4 times before abandon on Ozma.

Our healer couldn't place the meteors when they got marked and we just kept dying.

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just votekick them

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

The only problem I have with Weeping City is that ONE person can basically wipe the entire raid..

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That's both the good and bad part about it. Same thing happened to me last night, our healer didn't take it to the back instead ran all the way to the other side and caused extra damage..

When you add time in that run for having to re-do a boss, depending on how late it is, it can be annoying. At the same time though, hopefully, some good comes out of it. Lots of people have been able to skim by with little skill. This enforces it. I don't see it getting to a point where we can ignore meteors, or keep doing actions while we have the cubes over our heads.

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

When you add time in that run for having to re-do a boss, depending on how late it is, it can be annoying. At the same time though, hopefully, some good comes out of it. Lots of people have been able to skim by with little skill. This enforces it. I don't see it getting to a point where we can ignore meteors, or keep doing actions while we have the cubes over our heads.

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I agree with this assessment. Yes, one mistake by one player can have drastic implications for the party or even the raid as a whole, but what's the alternative? If there is ample room for error than there's no real risk and clearing / defeating the boss becomes an inevitability where mistakes just make it take longer.

Actually, I ran WC last night and on the final boss (which I think is perhaps too forgiving) my group used healer LB3 twice! The fight took ages and I was one of two people in a 24-man that did not die to mechanics. Then the healers had the audacity to talk about how much work they did... you only did work because everyone was acting like a dunce... this is artificially created work. Maybe commend the two DPS who constituted 22% of the damage on a 24-man raid boss. Sorry rant over.

TL;DR: No Risk, No Reward. And by reward I mean a fulfilling and fun experience.

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

just votekick them

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Sucking isn't a valid reason to votekick.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

Sucking isn't a valid reason to votekick.

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It is, as I assume they must be semi afk to be doing so poorly in a fight.

The way someone plays while doing things solo is up to them, and the more power to them. The way people play while 3, or 7, or 23 other players are being held behind if they play poorly is subject to scrutiny; and that includes getting booted for not doing mechanics, or not learning mechanics after a few wipes, or just not caring and "playing how I want to play".

It's a coop game. It's a coop genre. You have to cooperate or you're getting booted.

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Originally Posted by Destous

It is, as I assume they must be semi afk to be doing so poorly in a fight.

The way someone plays while doing things solo is up to them, and the more power to them. The way people play while 3, or 7, or 23 other players are being held behind if they play poorly is subject to scrutiny; and that includes getting booted for not doing mechanics, or not learning mechanics after a few wipes, or just not caring and "playing how I want to play".

It's a coop game. It's a coop genre. You have to cooperate or you're getting booted.

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Please tell me which of the 4 options you would use to Votekick someone? Harassment? AFK? Offline? Cheating?
It's none of those things.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

Please tell me which of the 4 options you would use to Votekick someone?

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Pick any one of them, and my previous statement about the necessity to cooperate, which includes learning mechanics of a fight so as to not hold back the entire group, is how I justify it; and it seems to be enough justification for the other members of my groups as they agree on the vote kick.

There's a bad culture of not holding players responsible for playing poorly or for not learning fights even after multiple wipes. For a single player experience, those types of players are fine to do what they want while they play. If they expect other players to play along side them, then they need to be willing to improve how they play. If they are not, then it's easy to call it harassment; harassment committed against 3, or 7, or 23 other players all at once because they're so self centered that they won't change a losing strategy.