Game needs to be more newcomer friendly, but NOT with level-boosts

I love me some Final Fantasy XIV. I've not played it much, for other reasons, but I definitely think super highly of the game. However, there are definitely very real issues with the game not being particularly welcoming to newcomers, and while it's not overwhelming *now*, I think the team is right to be concerned about 4.0 and beyond.

Still, I think a level-boost is simply the *wrong* approach. The story is absolutely one of the strongest points of the game, and while it's a little bit uneventful early on, it's important to have that understanding to provide context for later story developments.

So, I'd like to propose a couple of alternatives, which I think would make the game more welcoming and appealing to newcomers, without making a jarring shift of *skipping* content.

- Make all new Classes/Jobs playable from the start

Listen, I know there are players who don't like this idea, and there are merits to the current system, but frankly, it doesn't matter. New classes/jobs are a huge selling point for new players, and the current system completely undermines this. I bought Final Fantasy XI several years ago, along with several expansions, because I loved the idea of playing the Blue Mage. When I couldn't, I gave the game about three hours before getting bored, and never touched the game again. If someone is super excited to play a Dark Knight, or something else, I *guarantee* they don't want want to put in 60+ hours just to experience it.

Perhaps add low-level "Class" counterparts to new Jobs (ie. "Squire" as a precursor to Dark Knight). Either add trainers to the existing cities, or consider adding a new starting-area with access to the new Classes/Jobs (all the stories converge around level 15, anyways, so it would only be a new *starting* experience, perhaps having you interact with a different Scion initially).

- Speed up the Main Scenario

I think the Main Scenario is hugely important, not to mention *satisfying*. The issue is simply that it takes a lot time, and there's a *lot* of filler-content. I would remove as much filler as possible, and maybe incorporate some fast-travel mechanics (ie. when completing a MS [Main Scenario] quest, having an option to instantly travel to the turn-in NPC). No need to completely gut it or anything, but just speed things along a bit.

Anyways, these are just my personal suggestions, but I think they would both serve the game well in the long-run.

I feel that SE would be unwilling to ads new Classes for the following reasons

• The Cross-Class System. They seem to be trying to move away from this and adding new classes might undermine that (even ROG got skills other classes can use, just not Jobs). In addition Getting Jobs via a class requires one class at 30 and another at 15.
• Tedium: Which incidentally might be the reason they are considering this in the first place. Even if long quests aren't a factor people still need to do ugh, Toto-Rak at least once if they are to be Level 30 or else spend a lot of time Fate/leve grinding.

In addition, consider that the Starting areas are capitals, which make it a bit difficult to ad new cities without massive retcons (including add new Scions), or making Ishgard available from the start (which would still need retcons, as well as rebalancing the Central Highlands part of the North Shroud)



As far as story, they are already pruning out the fluff quests from the MSQ

There are some quests that could stand to be cut from the MSQ without screwing with the lore. Make them sidequests; problem solved. However, my gripe is simply all the walking from A to B to A to C to OVER 9000! Heck, simply having a insta-Chocoporter in West Thanalan to the Scion's clubhouse would be a God send as it would leave the lore intact while making the player's life easier.

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Originally Posted by Terin

Perhaps add low-level "Class" counterparts to new Jobs (ie. "Squire" as a precursor to Dark Knight). Either add trainers to the existing cities, or consider adding a new starting-area with access to the new Classes/Jobs (all the stories converge around level 15, anyways, so it would only be a new *starting* experience, perhaps having you interact with a different Scion initially).
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Sadly they probably won't be adding any more base classes again as SE seem really dead set on moving as far away from the armoury system as possible in regards to the class system, even though its forever going to be the elephant in the room as they can't remove the system without completely redesigning a major facet of the game all over again.

They've even said time and time again Arcanist going into Summoner and Scholar was a mistake (as an example)

i for one would love see bst and well blue mage who wield dueling scimitars they can make fun of drizzt with the starting quest like i get scimatars where my magic panthers

i can get why summoner and scholar was a mistake because it one single jobs.

there are ways to doing the armory system correctly

If I recall, the devs have outright said they will not add anymore classes due to the complications in doing so and the belief it's generally the more uneventful portion of content.

The issue with a condensing all the fetch quests comes with them now having to rewrite each section they do this with otherwise new players with end up with juxtaposition storyline. Originally, I wanted this approach myself, but I can certainly see the problems implementing it. Much as I don't love a love potion, it'll be far easier and cheaper for SE.

Well, consider this: what if they had made the new Jobs playable from level 1, and if chosen, you started out in Ishgard, as part of a caravan entering the city? The entire starter experience could have introduced you to Ishgard, but the quests could have taken place in the slums, or even the sewers. At level 15, you're accused of a crime, but are rescued by a nobleman who tells you to seek out the Scions of the Seventh Dawn.

It's too late now, but it's just one route they could have taken.

Another is to simply add new trainers to the other cities. I could see any of them working in any of the cities (ie. Dark Knight could start in Gridamia through some connection with Odin, in Limsa for their code of honor, or Ul'dah as rebels against the constraints' corruption). Not sure what new Jobs await us in the next expansion, but they could also just add a new City-State there (Ala Mhigo?), and shoehorn all the post-2.0 jobs there.

i agree. Making the lvl 1-60 experience better is one thing, but skipping players to the start of the next expansion each time is a disaster. If they implement this in 4.0 before they patch in 4.1-4.5, new players will be skipping roughly 85-90% of the game and only playing the last 10%.

I don't think level boosts are that bad, but personally, I'd just rather them revamp the leveling system to be more enjoyable. After you quest one job, it's very grindy to level all secondaries. Some ideas could include:

- allow replay ability of quests on alternate jobs
- make fates more dynamic, add in voice acting, make the result of the fates have lasting impacts. Make fates less of a grind, and more of a mission

As someone who dropped FFXIV at a low level in 2014 and recently returned, I can attest to the leveling experience being frustrating for new players. I live for dungeons in MMOs, and the massive amount of Main Story quests is very daunting. With so many interesting ways to level - FATEs, Dungeons, Class Quests, Hunting Log, etc. - it is quite easy to outlevel the MS quest line and have to "catch up" your options to your level. It feels like SE decided that characters should be able to hit level cap primarily through the MSQL and padded it appropriately. This is exacerbated by the dearth of satisfying buttons at lower levels, with classes taking 30-40 levels to hit their stride. Suggestions:

-Axe the filler. There are many options to reduce the quest load without sacrificing world building or characterization:
*Removal of fetch quests
*Removal of investigation "dead ends"
*Quest-specific fast travel (e.g. "...bla bla now let me teleport you to your next locale!")
*Consolidating quest steps. Instead of "Travel to B, kill 3 guys, return to A, travel to C, kill 5 guys, return to A" we could have more A->B->C->A quests.
-Frontload more skills. Give every DPS class an AoE by 15. Give every tank a threat stance by 15. Give everyone some oGCDs by 30. Etc. Nothing makes you want to drop out more than spamming two DoTs and a weak nuke on every. single. mob.

-(Controversial) Give cross-class skills without leveling up alternate classes. Asking someone to level two side classes to 30 or 40 for their last few skills is quite a lot; you could offer a "sneak peak" of other classes by enabling the cross-class skills by current class level.
-Allow the new classes to be played earlier, even if the class quests don't kick in until 30. Leveling one job to 50 just to start your second job (that itself requires two 30-40 side classes) is a crazy investment for a new player that wants to try MCH/DRK/AST.

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Originally Posted by Khanscott

insta-Chocoporter in West Thanalan to the Scion's clubhouse

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The boat in Limsa next to the ACN guild goes directly to Vesper Bay

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

-Frontload more skills. Give every DPS class an AoE by 15. Give every tank a threat stance by 15. Give everyone some oGCDs by 30. Etc. Nothing makes you want to drop out more than spamming two DoTs and a weak nuke on every. single. mob.

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Impulse Drive spam until level 26 is the highlight of DRG

Real talk? I would be totally fine with them indexing cross-class skills completely, and just making new baseline abilities in the cases they are necessary.

Ultimately, I though, I think by making new Jobs playable at creation, removing the filler Main Scenario quests (just repurpose them as optional quests to flesh the setting out for those who want to), and having a fast-travel for quest turn ins, I think the game would be awesome for new players.

I might actually change the 2.1-2.55 quest chains to either be optional, or hit at an earlier level (ie. the original Main Scenario wrapping up around lvl 45,). Also, all Dungeons should unlock at certain levels, removing that whole barrier of "How do I unlock this next dungeon?".

I think adding in the new jobs starting at lvl 1. And then locking them behind an expansion purchase is the best route.

However if you noticed with HW they were able to cut out alot of slack from lvl 1,5, 10,15,20, and 25 job missions and possibly their idea for the next expansion is to start at lvl 40 instead of 30 seeing the new lvl cap will be 70.

I highly doubt 4 jobs not being available from a player starting the game stopped them from wanting to play the game.

In all honesty? It might.

Let's say one of those jobs is Samurai; pretty unique job there, and a lot of people might consider buying the game JUST to play as a Samurai. Well, if they're unable to play a Samurai until they're 60+ hours into the game? Well, they might opt to just not even try FFXIV.

Like I said, that's exactly what happened to me with the Blue Mage in FFXI. If you're already max level, I think it's awesome to give them a head start on leveling a new job, but newcomers still want to be able to access those jobs. After all, New Jobs are a major selling point to any expansion, and if the buy said expansion, they're going to be eager to play then right away.

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Originally Posted by Terin

In all honesty? It might.

Let's say one of those jobs is Samurai; pretty unique job there, and a lot of people might consider buying the game JUST to play as a Samurai. Well, if they're unable to play a Samurai until they're 60+ hours into the game? Well, they might opt to just not even try FFXIV.

Like I said, that's exactly what happened to me with the Blue Mage in FFXI. If you're already max level, I think it's awesome to give them a head start on leveling a new job, but newcomers still want to be able to access those jobs. After all, New Jobs are a major selling point to any expansion, and if the buy said expansion, they're going to be eager to play then right away.

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I hope they can do it in a way that won't ruin the lore/integrity of the jobs (wish we were getting classes as well but oh well.)

I hope so, as well. Really, there's no reason they couldn't add Classes that are precursors to the Jobs later in the game; they were clearly designs to be played at low level, given how they scale down for guildhests and dungeons. Like on said, just add something like "Squire" as a precursor to Dark Knight, Musketeer as a precursor to Machinist (there's already a guild in Limsa for them), and... Something to precede Astrologian.

They might mechanically be the same, but at least then, you get to play then, without sacrificing that "moment" when you finally get your Job Crystal.

1) Make MSQ scenarios allow parties up to 4 people. This way a high level player can help their friends out with difficult scenarios and not have to break the party up then reform so much.
2) Sync to player level function. This way a high level player can sync down to the level of his friend, not deny the friend OW exp, and not cause the friend to wind up getting extra mobs with every pull because they are partied with a high level player.
3) Quest share function. This will allow a person to come help their friends on a quest and see what the quest requires/hidden NPCs. Will also aid mentors in helping sprouts.

By virtue of making it easier for people to help others on their quests you in turn improve the leveling experience. It always feels better to play with your friends, the current experience is very unfriendly to playing with your friends until they hit the same level as you. The MSQ is less daunting when tackled with a friend you can talk with.

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Originally Posted by Terin

Also, all Dungeons should unlock at certain levels, removing that whole barrier of "How do I unlock this next dungeon?".

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Do. Not. Remove. The quest barrier for dungeons.

Otherwise this game will wind up just like WoW where people level to 15 and then sit in a capital city or FC house spamming dungeons all day till level cap and ignore the entire story, the entire world, and make every zone in the game world feel even more empty. The Open World would become almost pointless, the FATE system would become almost pointless, the Hunt system would become almost pointless and SE would have to figure out ways to force people out of the capital cities/FC house.

And the only way Blizzard with WoW could figure out how to do that was to make it so in legion their "world quests" have a chance to roll a +55 ilvl boost so you could skip the first raid tier by running around the limited section of OW with world quests.

your suggest make so players can help lvl syn the mainline quest to be more challange up to 4 players or so it can help each other out

i think mainline story mentor add to games. so that friend help each other out

it get ML symbol this be a way combat the desire for lvl potion. the lvl syn work well for the mainline story mentor

plus if players get mentor they friends who they help through mainline story would get exp boost for doing it with them

I'd have to say, it's pretty easy. Not even close to as time consuming as I was expecting. This game already hands you everything on a silver platter.

Isn't this streamlined mentality getting a little extreme? This is a game, you don't need everything right now.

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Originally Posted by Braden

I'd have to say, it's pretty easy. Not even close to as time consuming as I was expecting. This game already hands you everything on a silver platter.

Isn't this streamlined mentality getting a little extreme? This is a game, you don't need everything right now.

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People just want to be at the end collecting there tomes and afking in the hub zone and "helping/playing" with friends

Its not about the journey anymore its just about getting to the end as quickly as possible and ignoring all the game has to offer at every stage. But this is more the devs having no back bone and giving in to the lazy entitled players who play for a couple weeks and leave then come back and leave again.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

People just want to be at the end collecting there tomes and afking in the hub zone and "helping/playing" with friends

Its not about the journey anymore its just about getting to the end as quickly as possible and ignoring all the game has to offer at every stage. But this is more the devs having no back bone and giving in to the lazy entitled players who play for a couple weeks and leave then come back and leave again.

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I think you're entitled to be entertained by playing video games. What's wrong with that?

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Originally Posted by Pencardiel

I think you're entitled to be entertained by playing video games. What's wrong with that?

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If you can only find fun at the end of Final Fantasy XIV then the game must be doing something very wrong.
With Final Fantasy MMO or not, it's always about the journey. Besides even at end game of FFXIV there's really not that much to do outside of savage and farming at the moment Nidhogg weapons.

I wish more players could appreciate the journey of Final Fantasy XIV, there's more to the game than just the end game scene.
I reckon if they axe the filler that has no place in a FF game eg: the packmule stuff it'd be more bearable for new players.

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Originally Posted by Pencardiel

I think you're entitled to be entertained by playing video games. What's wrong with that?

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Nothing is wrong with that but if everything is a one click button how is that any fun? Everything that this game was is diminishing into quick grabs everywhere.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

Nothing is wrong with that but if everything is a one click button how is that any fun? Everything that this game was is diminishing into quick grabs everywhere.

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Let's hope it won't be. But it isn't much fun grinding solo fates on three classes for tens of levels, either, or not being able to watch a cut scene in a dungeon because you're holding everyone up.

I do like story in games, but in an MMO especially, there needs to be some compromise.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

-Axe the filler.
-Frontload more skills.

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To be honest, I'd rather they provide skips than remove quest content entirely.

I have a strong dislike for stories that I feel are rushed, and with the current ebb and flow of the story that includes things like "investigation dead ends" and other things others consider filler, I feel like the MSQ has achieved the kind of good pacing needed to tell a good story (it can't be all exciting action).

That being said, there are a variety of MSQ quests that could be turned into "important" side quests the way we've been getting lately. Balance the experience so that you can either do those or run dungeons/FATES for the same overall level result alongside the main branch, and I'd be okay with that kind of compromise.

While a late 2.4 or 2.5ish quest with Tataru feels like it creates a nice "calm before the storm" moment right before a lot of stuff goes down, it's not strictly necessary, so things like that could be attached to the side of the MSQ).

Watched a favorite MMO of mine lose a lot of good story and world building quests in the name of convenience - I'd rather not see that happen here.

I'm all for some front loading of skills, though - it's commonly mentioned that most classes don't feel like they come into their own until the mid 30s at the earliest, and I wouldn't at all mind seeing that number dropped to around 15, which can be achieved in the first day and will help new players feel like combat has more going for it much earlier.

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Originally Posted by Khanscott

There are some quests that could stand to be cut from the MSQ without screwing with the lore. Make them sidequests; problem solved. However, my gripe is simply all the walking from A to B to A to C to OVER 9000! Heck, simply having a insta-Chocoporter in West Thanalan to the Scion's clubhouse would be a God send as it would leave the lore intact while making the player's life easier.

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The one thing I constantly asked myself during the MSQ when I was starting out is what is the point of a linkshell if your going to force me to come ALL the way back to base to tell me all of 2 lines of text? Couldn't you just tell me to go see someone or investigate rather than wasting my time and money walking all the way back?

I dunno, I started playing last August and I had a pretty easy time getting into this game compared to a lot of other MMOs out there.

Although one of the major newbie gripes I had was how the devs should REALLY stick an aetheryte up on the northern part of Lower La Noscea. As a newbie that did not really know which zones led to where without aimlessly wandering around, teleporting to the docks and walking all the way up there was :/

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

I dunno, I started playing last August and I had a pretty easy time getting into this game compared to a lot of other MMOs out there.

Although one of the major newbie gripes I had was how the devs should REALLY stick an aetheryte up on the northern part of Lower La Noscea. As a newbie that did not really know which zones led to where without aimlessly wandering around, teleporting to the docks and walking all the way up there was :/

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Teleport to Limsa and use aethernet to Lower Lanoscea.

Video games used help develop skills. some games taught skills like problem solves. gil sellers have give risen to the desire have everything now. Lvl 50 we want now, wow has lvl 90 or 100 before expansion we want for ffxiv. we want thing now. instead think want a mmo can teach us we gain a desire want things now. the generations that came before us where patient lots of people realize that they can't gain everything now. instance gratification isn't good in mmo industry or in really life. people who thing now will grab credit card and use to gain thing now. I wish we see that get thing now isn't going make us better people. my family first pc was commodore 64. pro instance lvl because i think learn patient through grinding and story contents and dungeon help person online gain since of patients. patients is good thing have. instance gratification isn't. I used wow lvl 90 power up 3 or four time. what did i learn that isn't the best way gain lvl or learn anything it teach inpatients.

Teaching is for educational games.

The big mistake SE made with HW was gating the new classes behind the 2.55 story. If they had of not done that and, instead, made those class quests obtainable once reaching level 30 and finding the NPCs in Central Coerthas then there would have been fewer complaints from new players. Hopefully next xpac SE will have learned from this mistake and will place the new class quests in Little Ala Mhigo or some other "old world" location.

Regardless I agree the level skip potion is not an ideal solution to the problem. Instead they should try to remove some of the filler/world building quests from the MSQ and instead make them side quests. Then they can increase the xp gained from the MSQ to compensate and keep the leveling curve smooth. SWTOR essentially did this and it has worked out well for them.

I think finding a way to get rid of the level gates in the MSQ would help a lot. A good example is the MSQ after 45. There's a gap where you can't continue until you hit 49. That's just nuts. I hesitate to use the word nerf, but I think they should remove the level gating and nerf the MSQ just enough so that you can do the lvl 49 stuff at 46 or so. So new players don't have to stop and grind out three levels before they are able to continue.

+1 to removing filler and making everything playable from the get go, or at least at level 30. It'd be great.

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Originally Posted by Amariel34

I think finding a way to get rid of the level gates in the MSQ would help a lot. A good example is the MSQ after 45. There's a gap where you can't continue until you hit 49. That's just nuts. I hesitate to use the word nerf, but I think they should remove the level gating and nerf the MSQ just enough so that you can do the lvl 49 stuff at 46 or so. So new players don't have to stop and grind out three levels before they are able to continue.

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That gap is pretty bad, but to be fair, there's 4 quest hubs that open up at that level (and npcs in the waking sands that tell you to go to said quest hubs), a lot of people miss that though..

Yeah, it's not like the game has massive issues or anything, but some of the content could be tidied up a bit. Like someone else said, no need to REMOVE quests, but maybe make some of them optional. Also, using the linkshell to turn in quests would be excellent, although I've always wondered how exactly it fit into the game's fiction.

Biggest thing, for sure, is just making new Jobs (or Class counterparts) playable for new players who buy the expansions.

the fact the dungeon exp and the leveling roulette bonus is even a thing on top of the Hunting logs, and Challenge logs ... its not even close to being bad try playing this at 2.0 when most of this didn't exist. that gap is almost non existent now. I dont really understand how people struggle I mean the idea of running dungeons to learn how to play your job is kind of what people should have been doing from the start. As far as this game being new player friendly I hate to say it but if feels as if its far more new player friendly than veteran friendly Im not joking the ability to catch up quickly has always been there. People need to stop asking for a push 1 button be max level. The abundance of players who still dont know how to get out of the bright flashing orange circle is overwhelming. I promise that is far more frustrating than needing to teleport across the world (not walk) talk to said npc and teleport back.

They shouldn't make it so easy and faceroll to get to where longtime players are right now.

With things as they are now, the system is hardly producing any "skilled" players because they didn't have to learn like 90% of the raid content in the first place. They just get carried through stuff making them expect future content to be as "forgiving" whereas longtime players hardly find anything fresh with the new content.

If you want to get a certain job so bad at the start of the game, or be at the same level as everyone else, you might as well just ask the Devs to get rid of everything before HW and just sit back and enjoy MSQ and its cutscenes. Trust me, its literally the same thing.

Doing extra fetch quests and walking longer will not teach players to stay out of the fire or optimize their skills.

This happens in every MMORPG with a level cap increase or tiers of content. Players who put in 100 hours to get to level 50 think that every new player should do the same, or their recreational gaming "sacrifice" is devalued. But new players will balk at a game that requires the full time to hit cap before even trying new expansion content, so developers do trim the time required. It's inevitable that the 1-50 leveling/story will be eased, so let's discuss how.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

Doing extra fetch quests and walking longer will not teach players to stay out of the fire or optimize their skills.

This happens in every MMORPG with a level cap increase or tiers of content. Players who put in 100 hours to get to level 50 think that every new player should do the same, or their recreational gaming "sacrifice" is devalued. But new players will balk at a game that requires the full time to hit cap before even trying new expansion content, so developers do trim the time required. It's inevitable that the 1-50 leveling/story will be eased, so let's discuss how.

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I think they can streamline them somewhat. I mean a hell of a lot of the quests are fetch quests because their quest mechanic system has so far been pretty limited in what options they have. I think its collect something, kill something, or carry something from one spot to another. They are looking to improve the system for 4.0 and got a lot better at using what they had in 3.0 but a lot of the old 2.0 stuff is hard to go back and just remove. Quite a few of those quests work as breadcrumb or introduction quests. I think some can be removed or turned into side quests but I think changing some of them might impact the narrative making sense.

In the short term I think the most likely options, taking into account the potential time it would take to develop and implement the change and the time Yoshi's team has to do something like that, is to make the all jobs available at 30 and make story skippable so you can jump forward through storyline you have out level. That way people can play the jobs they want as soon as they hit the right level and people who aren't interested in trawling through the story can skip it. A more major overhaul of the story content is something I think would need to be worked on over a longer time frame than what they have at the moment.