Any plan to improve the enmity indicator?

Short, under 1000 characters version:

When you're a DPS (Or like a super healy-healer), you go from green circle, Upwards yellow arrow, downwards orange arrow, red square when you're gaining aggro.

When you're a tank, you go from blinking red square to blinking faster red square when losing aggro.

Is this something they plan on changing anytime soon, or has it been addressed anywhere? I want confirmation as either A) They're looking to improve this in the future, or B) This is intended and are not going to be changing it in the future.


I know we have the aggro meters on the party list, but you have to tab through each target to see, and the bar doesn't even display when you select a new target, taking half a second to a second before it shows up. What would make sense to me is if you got a Solid red square when you were fine, and then a blinking red square when you're losing aggro. Super simple, super easy.

Long version: http://pastebin.com/CRyCsxhX

Yeah that is really annoying for tanks too, because you need to switch to every mob and see little white bars on the party thing to notice if anyone is stealing aggro. Well, you get a sense of it based on the healers spamming, distance and who the dps are attacking, but could be better. I really like the notification when you loose aggro tho, it shows who got aggro and makes a little noise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sokina

snip

---

I dont want to come off as too dismissive, but I dont really see that this is that much of an issue? Being able to hold aggro and maintain an accurate tactical view of the battlefield is what being a tank is all about. There are already a number of indicators as to where people lie on the enmity scale. The party list, the DPS/Helaers color codes in the enemy list as well as having your own enemy list as a cheat sheet.

Over time you should be able to develop a sense of how well your holding aggro - ie. that MCH is going ham on a different mob than anyone else, I better give it some attention. At some point you wont be watching your enemy list or party bar like a hawk to be sure your on top of the enmity list. You will just know when and where you need to focus based on what your dps and healer are doing. Your going to need that attention focused on positioning targets so your dps can hit positionals, avoiding aoes, managing cooldowns, and maximizing your dps.

What I am saying essentially is that I see no reason to make it "easier" on tanks. Part of the learning curve is to be comfortable with enmity. Having a list that tells you use aggro moves here, here, and then here - in my opinion- robs the tank classes of something fundamental to the playstyle.

...3 years of PLD, I had no idea the red square blinked?

So when did playing red light, green light, 1-2-3 get too hard? Should we give tanks a 500% threat boost from 1-50?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anienai

So when did playing red light, green light, 1-2-3 get too hard? Should we give tanks a 500% threat boost from 1-50?

---

It's not about being able to keep hate, it's about knowing which mobs you're in danger of losing. The current indicator for how much of an enmity lead you have on a given mob is so poor that many (including myself) didn't even know it was there.

I agree, OP. I'd really like it if they gave some kind of better indication of how large your enmity lead is in the enemy list. The frequency of a subtle blink/flash is NOT a good indicator, and the most efficient way to get that information has been to tab cycle through every target.

(while we're on the topic, I'd love if we could have some control over the tab target sequence and/or the order of the enemy list)

Did you miss the actual enmity bars on the party list that shows how much relative enmity everyone in the party has accrued on any particular mob?
Also, if you edit your post you no longer have a 1000 character limit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Canadane

Did you miss the actual enmity bars on the party list that shows how much relative enmity everyone in the party has accrued on any particular mob?
Also, if you edit your post you no longer have a 1000 character limit.

---

Those only work for the mob you're targeting. The moment you have more than one enemy that you need to hold onto is the moment that part of the UI loses its utility (unless you cycle through every mob to see where you stand; yes, you should be cycling anyway, but it doesn't tell you which mob(s) you're about to lose until you get to them).

As a tank the only thing I care about is seeing red squares and seeing the color orange yellow or green means I'm not doing my job.

If you cycle through them anyway you'll see which mob(s) you're about to lose and to be honest every tank has a aoe to keep hate. You just have to use it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jpec07

Those only work for the mob you're targeting. The moment you have more than one enemy that you need to hold onto is the moment that part of the UI loses its utility (unless you cycle through every mob to see where you stand; yes, you should be cycling anyway, but it doesn't tell you which mob(s) you're about to lose until you get to them).

---

Because I'm cycling anyway it's a pretty moot issue.
I'm more surprised at tanks that only use the colour indicator.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Canadane

Because I'm cycling anyway it's a pretty moot issue.
I'm more surprised at tanks that only use the colour indicator.

---

Yeah same. I always considered the enemy list to be more of an indicator for the dps and healer and a last ditch indicator for tanks. As I said I only ever really rely on it as a cheat sheet when im grabbing a large amount of mobs (like more than 5) to see if there is a straggler or two after the first burst of enmity. I cycle through as well, on PS4, and find that gives me far more info on where the party lies on the enmity scale than the enemy list.

These all sound like opinions of well-established tanks familiar with everything. You learned this way, and that's great. But that doesn't mean the system can't/shouldn't be improved. There's a lot to pick up in the early tanking experience. The whole party list enmity bars are going to be a completely new thing, one they're not trained to watch for, and shoved so far off in the corner of the default UI that they're bound to miss it until it's pointed out to them somehow. The enemy list is a familiar feature, between story and class quests, possibly even FATEs, players get experience with its function and utility. It's the UI element early tanks are likely to watch more, which may lead to a bad tanking experience if they get frustrated with not understanding when/why they're losing aggro at any given time.

Nobody's asking to put tanks on auto-pilot (seriously, why does everyone always jump to that conclusion any time a tanking improvement is brought up?). This is just a case of refining and improving the tools available so maybe we get more tanks hanging around in game and reduce all our queue times.

The big problem with it is that the enemy list very clearly demonstrates your enmity on a mob relative to the rest of the group. If you're a tank, and you start building hate on a freshly-spawned mob, you'll watch it climb green => yellow => orange => red, and to that point, it gives you a sense for how much more work you have to do to get ahead of the rest of the team on that mob (especially useful if dealing with packs of mobs that spawn; a few guildhests come to mind).

But once you have hate, that's where it effectively stops being of any use. Say a DRG is burning down another target because it needs to die faster than the rest. In your cycling, you pass over it once, but then move onto the next, and put your enmity combo on each mob in the pack. However, the DRG gets a string of crits, the stars align, and in the at least three GCDs you're off that mob, they very quickly overpower your hate lead, and then they start taking damage. If the interface had alerted you better to the fact that your enmity lead was slipping, you could have tabbed back to that mob before it was a problem.

It's not going to encourage bad gameplay, just give tanks a better tool to understand how to play more effectively. Just because you don't need it and wouldn't use it doesn't mean others don't need it, or that others wouldn't use it. If you oppose convenience, just think of it as giving you a good "back in my day..." story to tell all the young whippersnappers that you encounter.

I don't think any changes are needed. As long as you pay attention to what your party is doing then the enmity gauge works perfectly fine on its own. I find the enemy list is nothing but an alert to tell you a new mob / mechanic has spawned. Otherwise its just a distraction. There's much more important information to be keeping an eye on.


You shouldn't be waiting for a red light to turn green. You should be switching between mobs every GCD; proactively applying enmity to all targets. Keeping an eye on mobs HP to determine which one's may need a bit of extra attention. Tossing out some extra AoE Enmity with a SMN, BLM, or Holy Mage in the party. Though this all becomes a lot easier on PC if you have TAB (forward mob cycle) and F11 (backwards mob cycle) right on the side of your Mouse for extremely easy and precise target acquisition [instead of going through the entire enemy list over and over.]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hasrat

These all sound like opinions of well-established tanks familiar with everything. You learned this way, and that's great. But that doesn't mean the system can't/shouldn't be improved. There's a lot to pick up in the early tanking experience. The whole party list enmity bars are going to be a completely new thing, one they're not trained to watch for, and shoved so far off in the corner of the default UI that they're bound to miss it until it's pointed out to them somehow. The enemy list is a familiar feature, between story and class quests, possibly even FATEs, players get experience with its function and utility. It's the UI element early tanks are likely to watch more, which may lead to a bad tanking experience if they get frustrated with not understanding when/why they're losing aggro at any given time.

Nobody's asking to put tanks on auto-pilot (seriously, why does everyone always jump to that conclusion any time a tanking improvement is brought up?). This is just a case of refining and improving the tools available so maybe we get more tanks hanging around in game and reduce all our queue times.

---

Every tank should cycle through the mobs, the system how it is right now is just fine. If you give more symbols and colours to it, newer players will be even more overwelmed because of this. Never change a good running system.

And sorry, a FATE only player will never learn how to tank, not with the system as it is and not with a changed one.

System is fine. Doesnt need further hand holding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ilan

Every tank should cycle through the mobs, the system how it is right now is just fine. If you give more symbols and colours to it, newer players will be even more overwelmed because of this. Never change a good running system.

---

A Rube Goldberg machine can get its job done, but there's a lot of room for improvement. Never change a good running system? I disagree. Always be looking for ways to improve. Isn't that how you make the meta better? Just, no. And worse, thinking it "works just fine" is being completely blind to any other perspectives you might not have considered; looking at a problem from a new angle is always desirable, to shed light on what you've become complacent with.

(now, I'm not entirely saying that's the case here, just that the idea of never changing something because it works is terrible)

Quote:

---

And sorry, a FATE only player will never learn how to tank, not with the system as it is and not with a changed one.

---

My point on that particular subject was tanks don't jump into dungeons right away. There's leveling to do first. And some of that leveling may be through FATEs. Where they start getting a bit of experience with the enemy list, becoming familiar with using that tool to follow enmity, before they may ever be thrown in a party where the more useful enmity gauges are.

This thread doesn't have anything to do with my ability to hold or generate enmity. I'm capable of using the party enmity bar, the same way as everyone else does. I'm capable of using AOE enmity, the same way as everyone else does. I'm capable of holding aggro, the same way as everyone else does. This thread has nothing to do with those things.

This is about the enmity indicators. Obviously, Square designed the blinking red square with the intention of having it blink faster when you were closer to losing enmity. This is not an opinion, this is a fact. This is how they designed it. This is why they made it this way. They clearly intended it to be visible at a glance, via the enemy list, which enemies you are fighting that you are losing aggro lead on. They designed it this way to have this information visible, without having to tab-cycle through the targets, and have it easily visible. They designed this enmity indicator to provide this information to players. For those of you who may be confused about what this thread is talking about (and I see a few who may be), it is about improving a system they already have implemented in the game. This is not asking for hand-holding. This is not asking for "how 2 hold more enmity?" This is not asking "I'm having trouble tanking." This thread is asking them to improve a function that's already in the game, to make it better serve the purpose they intended it to serve.

I don't understand the negative remarks and condescending attitude from a few people. This thread is entirely a suggestion to improving an already-existing function to provide more clarity and information, visible at a glance, without having to tab target. It's already in the game, and they intended it to be in the game, but it's flawed in its current state. It is simply a suggestion to improve the display indicators to better relay information that they already intended to have readily available to the players. There is no harm in that. I saw a way it could be improved, and I suggested a way it could be improved. My skill, perceived lack thereof or otherwise, is a non-topic of this thread.

Just because I see a way for a system to be improved does not mean I need or am relying on the change to perform better. It means I'm paying attention and am looking for ways to improve the game. Having a solid red square turn into a blinking red square is not going to radically change the way players tank. It's not going to hurt or hinder anyone, in any way. Red blinking square still means a tank is holding aggro. You don't need a 50000 aggro lead. All you really need is a 1 aggro lead. Sure, the more of a lead you have, the better, but in the end, that 1 aggro decides who's taking the hit. The proposed change is not going to destroy the world, or hold hands, or make bad tanks magically great. It's simply improving a system that already exists to provide more clarity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sokina

-

---

Ok

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tila

System is fine.

---

This is my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sokina

snip

---

I genuinely hope you aren't referring to me as one of those being condescending, if I came across like that I apologize. I just disagree with you that the system is flawed in its current state. I dont believe SE designed the enemy list to be an major part of how you gather information on enmity, it is the lowest form of indication we have. Also, I do think changing it to a more obvious indication will change the way some tanks play. It encourages further focusing on the enemy list and it discourages you from using the enmity bars located in the party list - which are way better forms of information. These party bars are what you will have to use if you ever to start stance dancing as a tank, they show you how fast a person is gaining on you with respect to enmity - the enemy bar is far less effective at that. It is better in my opinion, to push tanks to become comfortable with the tools they will need to use in the future, than to spoon feed them information so they don't have to for longer. That, at least to me, is a fundamental change and why I would oppose it.

I think saying "It doesn't matter to an experienced tank that knows what they're doing" is a bit vain, it's like a master electrician working in the dark because he can't be bothered to change the light bulb.

Just because you know the setup inside and out, doesn't mean that it wouldn't be safer to fix the unnecessary stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chronons

It encourages further focusing on the enemy list and it discourages you from using the enmity bars located in the party list - which are way better forms of information. These party bars are what you will have to use if you ever to start stance dancing as a tank, they show you how fast a person is gaining on you with respect to enmity - the enemy bar is far less effective at that.

---

Quote:

---

the enemy bar is far less effective at that.

---

Isn't that the whole point of the suggestion? To make it more effective? Why is that such a common argument? "Oh, that element isn't very useful, don't bother making it better." Shouldn't the more logical thought process be "Oh, that element isn't very useful, it could use some improvement."

I would actually prefer a more objective, numerical figure for Emnity. It allows more fine grained tuning of the Tank rotation and allows insights in to emnity generation (e.g. by healers etc etc) mechanics. What we have now is a poor, low precision, low responsiveness "indicator".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

I would actually prefer a more objective, numerical figure for Emnity. It allows more fine grained tuning of the Tank rotation and allows insights in to emnity generation (e.g. by healers etc etc) mechanics. What we have now is a poor, low precision, low responsiveness "indicator".

---

That's actually a good point. When people ask me "How much enmity does flash generate", I just give them a random guess that I have no way to prove. Numbers would be nice.

The system is ok but it is flawed but as a tank you should be switching for ea mob but if there is more than 4 mobs you should have the knowledge to know how much eminity you are gaining. And if you lose a mob it will show you with a red line as a tank you do pay attention to these things. If you cannot do these things i am sry but your being 100%. This is a game not a slave ride for your enjoyment and to be lazy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hasrat

Isn't that the whole point of the suggestion? To make it more effective? Why is that such a common argument? "Oh, that element isn't very useful, don't bother making it better." Shouldn't the more logical thought process be "Oh, that element isn't very useful, it could use some improvement."

---

Except that even with the OPs suggestion the enemy list would still be less effective than the party list at providing information on enmity..... but you know logic....

I think it's fine. TBH, short of plastering huge warnings on your UI, I don't see how it can get more clear than it is.

For one, I don't think many people in this topic are even getting full information out of the UI. For example, when I am tanking a large pull, if I see an individual monster at slightly lower HP than the others, I will tab to it to check the enmity because it's possible the DPS is focusing it more. If I see certain debuffs up on a mob (like DK, trick attack, etc.) that's also a sign it might need more enmity care. This will happen well before the enmity list will start blinking or whatever. If I see a non-caster DPS not burning TP on a big pull, that's a sign they're a baddie but it's also a sign that they might be single targeting something. If I see a lot of pop-up Medica texts for some strange reason, that's my sign that healing enmity might be a concern.

God forbid we can't just tunnel vision on an enmity list and actually need to understand and look at multiple things.

PLD in FFXI had no sort of enmity light indicators, it was all based on feel! lol

I'm down for an update, if anything just because this part of the UI is designed poorly.

A blinking light isn't intuitive and doesn't represent the key data well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zensho

PLD in FFXI had no sort of enmity light indicators, it was all based on feel! lol

---

Cure 4 bombing and Invincible were known to pull a few rare mobs...so I heard.

:)

For starters, I've been playing this game and tanking in it for a year and a half, and I never noticed that the icons would flash for aggro loss. That alone shows that on some level, there is room for improvement. That being said, I don't necessarily think that improvement is needed. Situational awareness is key for anyone who wants to tank, and it's as simple as checking the mobs hp bar. If one mobs hp is dwindling more than others, that's a sign that they need some attention. I think the current system promotes a sense of situational awareness that is key for any decent tank. I'm not questioning anyone's tanking skills, this is just my opinion on the matter.

I wholeheartedly agree with this idea.

It's a system that was implemented into the game long ago to serve as an enmity indicator, but, due to poor design decisions, it didn't work that well. People are praising the target swapping system of tracking enmity, but I didn't even know that was a feasible strategy until I saw this thread. It doesn't feel like it's working as intended, it feels like it was slapped together by players because the enemy list was in need of improvement.

The people opposed to this change come off as a bunch of stubborn tanking veterans who are afraid of even minor changes. They're claiming we shouldn't make the enemy list work because it doesn't currently work. That doesn't make any sense!

The enemy list is for tracking your enemies, the party list is for tracking your party. What the enemies do to your party should, at the very least, be easily visible in both parts of the UI.

Hmmm... Sounds complicated. I'll stick to 3 differently colored shapes to make it easy. You can already see what's going on with all the numbers and skills and more numbers and agro lines and beeps and dings and party list and enemy list and everything else thats constantly floating around during battle. Adding MORE crap to get in the way of watching all the other crap sounds like it would be a buzzkill.

I had no idea there was flashing to indicate aggro changes. I do think that the aggro bars you get in the party list are functional, but far too small - I'd rather see it reworked into its own HUD element where you see yourself and the one/two players who are closest in aggro. Everything else is irrelevant - I don't need to know the aggro of my entire party, I just need to know how much of an aggro lead I have over the closest few.