People are Quitting Too Easily on Extremes

I've been noticing a pretty big trend with about any Extreme mode that's been here to date. People after 1-3 tries do the following:

A) Ragequit and auto-leave without warning. Causes issues and breaks apart parties. Happens quite a lot.

B) Get mad at others for not doing X mechanic, or not pulling enough DPS/Heals/Hate. Possible loss of focus and could trip over something while ruminating on it.

C) Get back up and try again(getting rarer and rarer nowadays with PUG groups).

Most of the time it's either internal anger that they blame the group silently or vocally for not being able to do the fight. On release, there's a whole bunch of parties made to work on Nidhogg; but come 3-4 weeks later or a month they're all on farm. It's been the trend, which I understand why, but I'm unsure as to how many players step up to the challenge against the current end-game Extreme.

It's somewhat pitiful how people react and cause such vitriol at times.

on training it's a issue, if you are training some phase with people rage quiting after 3 trys, realy just BL someone doing this you need to get rid of them.

for a for down after sometimes if you don't reach last phase people will leaving, because for a for down you are suposed to be near to down it.

for a farm group it's not one issue , because it's not suposed to be a try.

what is funy in some Pugs group is complaining players loving sarcasm :
exemple:
a monk saying : it was not a for down ? [telling the one that messing getting orb on P3 of nidhogg]
a smn saying : it pissed me off it's so suposed to be farm ? [telling the one constantly dying on P1]

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I've been noticing a pretty big trend with about any Extreme mode that's been here to date. People after 1-3 tries do the following:

A) Ragequit and auto-leave without warning. Causes issues and breaks apart parties. Happens quite a lot.

B) Get mad at others for not doing X mechanic, or not pulling enough DPS/Heals/Hate. Possible loss of focus and could trip over something while ruminating on it.

C) Get back up and try again(getting rarer and rarer nowadays with PUG groups).

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Most of the time I'm of the (C) persuasion myself: we all make mistakes, especially when first learning something, so I'm usually willing to give people a break. I've been there these days, as I've been busy taking on Sephi EX for the first time alongside a FC mate (one or two might follow us in this endeavour soon).

What makes or breaks the omelette, at least for me, is the way people handle teamwork and teammates -- see below.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Most of the time it's either internal anger that they blame the group silently or vocally for not being able to do the fight. On release, there's a whole bunch of parties made to work on Nidhogg; but come 3-4 weeks later or a month they're all on farm. It's been the trend, which I understand why, but I'm unsure as to how many players step up to the challenge against the current end-game Extreme.

It's somewhat pitiful how people react and cause such vitriol at times.

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Regarding the specific issue of Nidhogg, I've seen that happen in normal mode as well. It seems to be the kind of fight that really sets people off (nine times out of then, it will be something about the pacing and handling of add phase).

Someone's temper may flare because the time they've invested into the effort is gone bye-bye, a wasted opportunity -- whereas it should be a chance to learn how to overcome problems.

Strategic / tactical divergences have a similar effect at times: as I've noticed with Sephi, having core members of your party disagreeing on how to position markers or a boss and then going their separate ways through repeated replays of the same fight gets tiresome quickly because you're bound to repeat the same kind of mistakes, just by virtue of lacking some measure of direction and a common voice.

I'm not saying one shouldn't be confident about what they know, by the way: but we should at least attempt to motivate and explain choices, especially in the light of one or more failed attempts. Ignoring others (also by shunting out constructive criticism, of course!) or pushing them away is hardly the best path to good teamwork, IMHO. Fair play is our friend when out there.

Reminding oneself that "this is a game" -- yep, even EX modes -- can still ease a little pain and return some focus to you, while providing the motivation to stick around that tiny bit longer... at the very least, long enough to openly and honestly explain why something doesn't seem to be working for you and wish the others good luck.

Because a lot of the time it is a complete waste of time.

Last week I fired up my mentor roulette, got Ramuh Ex. Three or four of the people say it is their first time in there, and they know nothing of the fight. I explain the first few mechanics, thinking if we can at least get those under our belt, we can then start talking about the later ones. I say every other orb cycle the OT must pick up three orbs then voke.

We begin. OT doesn't get any orbs, MT is swiftly one-shotted, followed by everyone else. I reiterate that OT must get three orbs then voke.

Run again, OT doesn't get any orbs and we all die immediately again. Repeat a third time.
Then vote abandon. We never saw more than about the first 40 seconds of the fight, and no-one learnt anything from the experience

Low DPS is hands-down the biggest complaint of late, at least that I've seen. I spent the weekend working on Nidhogg Ex with PF groups and one of the groups was all new so they were learning mechanics. I mean, folks were dying to divebombs, moving before scratch marks went out and dropping the floor poop all over the place, everything you can think of that could happen when someone steps into a dungeon with strangers for the first time before they get into the rhythm of the fight\team.

You know what one of the tanks said twice before he bailed on the third pull? "Guys DPS is low."

DPS is low. Nevermind the fact that people were learning the fight and probably weren't on top of their rotations as they learned how to move. DPS is low. Nevermind the fact that the team didn't even MAKE IT to the adds phase at that point. DPS is low.

All he was looking at was his parser and that was his main takeaway from this learning party of two pulls. DPS is low. He bailed, and that was of course the cue for others to follow suit and the party disbanded.

I feel like SE is nurturing an incredibly toxic environment with strict DPS checks, which completely belies their current stance on parsers in general. It makes it hard for players to learn a fight. I wish there were other ways to practice the mechanics so that people could learn how to move outside a toxic group and THEN get into a party.

I find a lot of people misrepresenting their experience in extremes. If the PF says farm, I'm going to leave if we can't clear in three runs. If the PF says final phase/clear, I'm going to leave if we can't even get to adds in three runs. I value my time and act accordingly.

And if I sign up for mentor roulette and get an extreme I will spend the full hour in there with you doing my best. Or if someone asks me to join a learning party, and I have the time and feel up to it, I'll give you an hour's worth of runs.

What I won't do is waste time on a duty that isn't what I signed up for. I'm done toughing it out when there's no progression.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I find a lot of people misrepresenting their experience in extremes. If the PF says farm, I'm going to leave if we can't clear in three runs. If the PF says final phase/clear, I'm going to leave if we can't even get to adds in three runs. I value my time and act accordingly.


And if I sign up for mentor roulette and get an extreme I will spend the full hour in there with you doing my best. Or if someone asks me to join a learning party, and I have the time and feel up to it, I'll give you an hour's worth of runs.

What I won't do is waste time on a duty that isn't what I signed up for. I'm done toughing it out when there's no progression.

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No one is suggesting that you shouldn't expect a clear for farm parties. We're talking about learning parties for extreme mode content (not mentor roulette which isn't even relevant) so I guess you missed that part of the conversation. People are bailing after 1-2 pulls on learning parties that are clearly advertised as such because of the reasons you just cited. Learning parties are not farm parties.

So, congratulations on missing the point? Or I guess you are just calling us all liars who must be trying to get into your farm parties to get carried.

No? Actually I think you're the one who missed my point completely, but thanks for the extra helping of acrimony.

My basic point was that people are misrepresenting their experience in extremes, from everything from learning to farm parties. I don't lack patience but I won't stick with something that isn't what I signed up for.

Idk how it is on your server but on mine, people indicate what phase of the fight they're working on. My friend started a fang/claw progression party on Saturday. It was four horrible wipes from start to finish. At least one person was dying to basic stuff that you see in the normal Final Steps of Faith duty.

People bail after certain indicators from the party wipes tell them, in their experience, it's not worth spending more time on.

The real question bound, is what indicators will show?

To my attention I think it's the following:

- Party is not progressing after wiping X time
- Party Finder Ad isn't true, such as someone posting "Learning Fang and Claw" and people are wiping on Add Phase repeatedly
- Party DPS is too low as some people state when they have a set expectation for when to move on to the next phase
- Mechanics are done improperly.

That's just a few ideas I thought people might ruminate on and set expectations for.

If it's a brand new learning party, things like (all of this has happened to me):

- tank doesn't ready check before pulling
- tank doesn't use a pull macro
- tank doesn't know what a pull macro is
- people die to really obvious mechanics repeatedly (don't stand in aoes)
- after explaining a strategy for a mechanic, multiple party members continue to get it wrong every time
- one of the party members spends more time dead than alive (at that point they're definitely not learning the fight)
- one of my parsing friends indicates how low someone's damage is. We look at what actions they're taking. It's obvious they have no idea what their rotation is or how to deal meaningful damage
- we spend twenty minutes trying to get past the first mechanic of the fight and can't survive it as a group

I've spent many many hours trying to get my FC mates and friends EX clears. You get an instinct for groups that can progress and those who are going to spend the whole time wiping the floor.

I think how FF14 and a lot of other games handle dungeon bosses is to blame for this. In a lot of Extreme trials and in end game dungeons, there's just too many instant death conditions. Nearly every phase of a boss in a dungeon has some type of instant raid wipe ability and Extreme has several more instant wipe conditions placed on top of the ones that were already there for the normal and hard ones.

I get frustrated too because there's basically arbitrary time limits on every boss and when I was first doing Alexander raids, my group constantly came close to wiping because of this.

It's not really a problem the way you think it is. Some people are just bad

If I join a learning party for example. I'll stick it out the longest. But if we're hitting a wall making no progress after 4-5 times wiping, I'm not sticking around to waste my time. I want to see consistent progression. Even if it's a little bit at a time.

If it's a down party, I expect everyone to know the whole fight with the exception of all or some of the final phase. So if DPS X keeps dying to mechanic Y in the first two phases, that means to me he's lying and looking for a carry.

If it's farm party, I expect everyone to know the whole fight, but you very often see two things in farm parties. 1) Someone with a bonus looking for a carry. 2) Someone who got carried their first kill and are now an "expert." I normally will see 2-3 pulls in these and then leave. Again, the problem isn't ppl raging. It's lack of integrity forcing ppl to rage

I have been joining Nidhogg Ex kill/last phase parties for two weeks now. I clocked a lot of hours in there - without a single clear. Were I not fortunate enough to clear it with my FC I would seriously despair by now.

Ragnarok's Party Finder is mess.

The comment says "training last phase, aiming to kill" - Two people die in the phase 1. Alright, maybe bad luck. Second time it happens again... yep, those people certainly have enough experience with the fight.

When the PF says "Training last phase" you expect to train the last phase, not phase 1, not phase 2, the last phase. But most of the time the group does not even get there. That is a problem. People can't be trusted and it creates a wave of frustration.

One or two players who lie about their progression, or do not realize how good they are with the previous phases, are enough to doom the rest of the party to fail.

Eventually these players learn the early phases in incorrect parties, but guess what happens? There are new players trying to cheat their way out of the bonus and the circle repeats.

Players just can't understand that by cheating the system it will take much longer to clear stuff while it is making PF frustrating experience.

This is the essence of the game. Most players have realised it by now or begin to realise...

If you want to have a kill on extreme primals or savage content find a static group. You will all practice on the fight w/o ragequits etc. and most important thing is you will have fun and damn it people, communication!. Back in 2.1 with titan hard, if someone happen to die in bombs and mostly in plumes BooM!! ragequits, flame etc. From my experience so far it goes like this:

% of getting a kill through DF -> 5-10%
PF (kill group) -> 30-50%
Static -> over 9000!

This issue is particularly bad in Nidhogg, and not only in the EX version. Last night I did Nidhogg NM in Trial Roulette, and after one wipe (both healers died to Cauterize) three people instantly left. I was like, really? Is this what DF is now

As for the EX, I will agree that one can usually spot fairly early on if a party is going to be at all successful or simply wipe to really simple mechanics. People failing to spot Nidhogg and move out of Cauterize accordingly is not okay if you're attempting an EX fight, and if one continues to do so after being told how to handle it, I would probably vote abandon after a few goes as well (though certainly not after just one or two wipes).

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I have been joining Nidhogg Ex kill/last phase parties for two weeks now. I clocked a lot of hours in there - without a single clear. Were I not fortunate enough to clear it with my FC I would seriously despair by now.

Ragnarok's Party Finder is mess.

The comment says "training last phase, aiming to kill" - Two people die in the phase 1. Alright, maybe bad luck. Second time it happens again... yep, those people certainly have enough experience with the fight.

When the PF says "Training last phase" you expect to train the last phase, not phase 1, not phase 2, the last phase. But most of the time the group does not even get there. That is a problem. People can't be trusted and it creates a wave of frustration.

One or two players who lie about their progression, or do not realize how good they are with the previous phases, are enough to doom the rest of the party to fail.

Eventually these players learn the early phases in incorrect parties, but guess what happens? There are new players trying to cheat their way out of the bonus and the circle repeats.

Players just can't understand that by cheating the system it will take much longer to clear stuff while it is making PF frustrating experience.

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Rag always has been a mess, most grp's are established already due to it being legacy and all. Statics are hard to find, or breakup even before they start.

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Originally Posted by Faeon

Rag always has been a mess, most grp's are established already due to it being legacy and all. Statics are hard to find, or breakup even before they start.

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So far I had two statics for A5S - both disbanded before even entering the fight. >_> So I can relate to that part. People just don't show up. I gave up on randoms for the time being due to it. Fortunately it seems our FC could have enough members for the second FC static which shows much better promise.

Ragnarok's PF might be mess, but it could be theoretically fixed if the players started to be at least a little bit honest about their progression... I don't think they are that dumb to think that lies could give them clears faster.

Here is my take on this :
1. fresh learning groups.. expect anything bad to happen. Unprepared players, DPS low, etc. And that's fine for me... i can suck it up.
2. Join a mid-prog group... this is where i got a problem. People lie and pretend they are on that progression.

I say problem is not the fights... Problem is Se not giving proper tools for the players to be able to recruit others that are on same prog.

Tired of joining Nid ex in a suppose "last phase" prog, when 1/5 of the times we can't reach that phase.

I am not about to ask questions, interview style, to all 7 members and make sure they know some phases.

Give us a tool darn it ! I suggest give the % of HP left of the boss in that fight you had your best stat. Shows it next to your name in PF. Not a perfect tool, has it's flaws, but will help. " ... < 25% prog only".

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Originally Posted by ZaaZaa

Here is my take on this :
.. I suggest give the % of HP left of the boss in that fight you had your best stat. Shows it next to your name in PF. Not a perfect tool, has it's flaws, but will help. " ... < 25% prog only".

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I mean, sure you can always have people pay for a crarry, then come back in PF because they didn't get their wep. But that will surely be obvious of his incompetence and be easy to vote-kick that said player. Instead of having to disband and re-form a failed group filled with liars.

Nid ex : You can have 1 or 2 liars.. enough to wipe the group. I had a healer keep dying in first phase of Nid ex.. was a last phase prog ! Tank didn't know the swap... in a last phase prog (on adds mind you)... Then you get blue players getting hurt because red team don't soak the DMG... in fang/claw... in a last phase prog...

I don't even try extremes and if I get new steps of faith in roulette, I quit and wait out the timer. Not putting myself through them in pugs with mean people period.

SE doesn't support parsers.
SE doesn't support booting people for playing poorly.
SE doesn't support booting people for failing to learn a fight.
SE doesn't support people clearing their savage content.

What's absolutely true about this game though, is that every group that's ever cleared a savage encounter did so because they used a parser, and they booted people who play poorly, and the booted people who couldn't get the fight down after several wipes. The worst truth about this game is that of the players who make it to 60, upwards of 95% of them never clear savage/extreme content; because SE doesn't support clearing the content.

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Originally Posted by Destous

SE doesn't support parsers.
SE doesn't support booting people for playing poorly.
SE doesn't support booting people for failing to learn a fight.
SE doesn't support people clearing their savage content.

What's absolutely true about this game though, is that every group that's ever cleared a savage encounter did so because they used a parser, and they booted people who play poorly, and the booted people who couldn't get the fight down after several wipes. The worst truth about this game is that of the players who make it to 60, upwards of 95% of them never clear savage/extreme content; because SE doesn't support clearing the content.

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I've only done maybe 2 of the Extreme Trials, but I avoid them if possible because of how toxic it makes people

Behemoth PF I can't find a proper Raid Static mainly because of the fact that most of the time it conflicts with my work schedule(and it's waaaay late night with the Aussies).

What I wish that people would do is fix the damn self-righteous Bonus Eso people get after helping someone clear content would not appear. It relates to how things are currently since people will outright kick someone if they see a bonus in a farm party. If people didn't know whether they had a bonus or not, then the game wouldn't be as full of **** as it already is dealing with people who think they're the best player in NA.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

If people didn't know whether they had a bonus or not, then the game wouldn't be as full of **** as it already is dealing with people who think they're the best player in NA.

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If people didn't know there was the bonus... nothing would get cleared ever. The bonus is the only thing that is barely keeping farm parties doing what they are made for - multiple runs for loot. Even without the bonus many farm parties fail, because players don't have enough experience to farm. You get experience by wiping for dozens of hours in training parties... wiping due to other players' mistakes like the rest of the players did.

Look at how Nidhogg kill parties look like - the bonus is allowed and players who only watched a guide join in to keep wiping the rest of the group. This would happen to the farm parties without the bonus. Massive amount of people who have no business being there would join and screw the rest.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

I've only done maybe 2 of the Extreme Trials, but I avoid them if possible because of how toxic it makes people

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Weird sweeping generalisation if you've only been in there twice.

Anyway, I think (obviously) most of the problem lies with people sneaking into PF parties claiming to have more experience than they do (or genuinely thinking they are better than they are), but part of it also lies with the group leader. if people are not up to it, you need to kick them pretty quick. otherwise it just gets worse in the group disbands, losing anyone that actually was on point. You prob get called elitist scum and all the rest, but it's the only way you actually ever get close to clearing with pf. obviously don't have to be rude to whoever's getting the boot, but being too shy to kick means you just fck about in p1 forever

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

Weird sweeping generalisation if you've only been in there twice.

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I like to think the majority of our playerbase would stay cool and level-headed, but I've also seen folks getting aggressive for much less than EX rides.
And as much as I'd like to believe otherwise, the occasional bad apple (i.e. toxic player) does pop up from time to time; so while a trial isn't bound to go wrong all the time, there are times when things definitely go South. Staying firm (but calm and reasonable) helps a lot in my opinion, especially if you're in a position of leadership or attempting to work towards a goal, such as advancing a phase.

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

Anyway, I think (obviously) most of the problem lies with people sneaking into PF parties claiming to have more experience than they do (or genuinely thinking they are better than they are), but part of it also lies with the group leader. if people are not up to it, you need to kick them pretty quick. otherwise it just gets worse in the group disbands, losing anyone that actually was on point. You prob get called elitist scum and all the rest, but it's the only way you actually ever get close to clearing with pf. obviously don't have to be rude to whoever's getting the boot, but being too shy to kick means you just fck about in p1 forever

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I would also offer some measure of constructive criticism or a rationale for the kicking - just a few words, in true KISS fashion: look, you were constantly messing up this part... you turned the boss toward the party, so they got hit with a big cleave... you should realize that you were delivering damage much slower than you could.... to sum it up, stay on point.

It goes a long way to prevent abuse of the elitist label, because you're reaching out, and at the same time it shows that you are being firm, but fair. Wish them good luck and let 'em go, then life goes on. Nobody gets harassed on either side, and perhaps a lesson is learned (I'm that eternal optimist).

Of course, when someone's blatantly going for a carry, stop as soon as you can and question their motivation right off the bat. They shouldn't be abusing you and those other players who are willing to give their honest best.

get a team , train , win! duty finder is the suck.