DPS Meter Usage?

All,

I noticed while watching Twitch streams that often there is a DPS meter in the raid. Did some quick research and they're apparently not allowed? Then looking at the black mage DPS guide in the DPS forum and the top guide and sticky and what not links to a YouTube video with one prominently displayed.

I don't really care about using one at all, not really into that. However can I get in trouble for watching streams or videos that use them? Or if people in chat or in a FC are talking about them or using them and I'm a member?

I don't really understand how, if something is not allowed, it is everywhere. :-| __Not debating whether that is right or wrong__, just don't quite understand if I have to report people or what so I don't get accused of cheating.

They are against the rules. (At least most of them are. The actual rule is that they can't latch onto the communication between the game and the server. Ones that rely on your saving the chat log to a file and then just read that file are technically allowed, but are probably not the ones you've seen.) But SE isn't very aggressive about enforcing those rules, so many players ignore them.

Basically, the only way SE will do anything about it is if somebody (A) uses a prohibited DPS meter, then (B) says in in-game chat that they've done so, and then (C) is reported by another player for it.

That last step, of someone reporting them, will typically only happen if the chat discussion had turned abusive and they used the numbers from their DPS meter to insult or kick another player, (for instance kicking a new or lower level player for not being able to keep up as high of DPS numbers as a higher level and far better geared player, even when they are putting out DPS that's good for the level of content they're in).

At any rate, you can't get in trouble for other people using a DPS meter. If other people talk in chat about it, you could report them if you wanted to, but are also free to not report them if you'd rather not.

Thanks for the answer.

My concerns as a new player are:

1. The most popular BLM guide openly has a DPS meter in its tutorial. By watching that am I cheating? Why doesn't SE remove it from the DPS forum if it is not allowed?

2. If you are in a FC whose members use one of these things, are you by proxy benefiting from it and thus have a competitive advantage over others? Should you leave that FC (which I've already done)? Is the "damage already done" though to your character's integrity?

I don't want to keep playing this game knowing that I had an unfair advantage, even indirectly. I don't care about "getting in trouble" or if such a thing should or should not be allowed. That's not the angle I'm approaching this from. Others can argue that to the end of time. I just want to know that my character has done nothing wrong because I'm about ready to delete him and move on to another game. I don't like cheating and right now feel like my character that I've worked so hard with is "tainted" forever by this. :(

Wow um...
I wouldn't go that far, deleting your character. It's a more "don't ask don't tell" type of thing. I can PROMISE you someone you've run with in the DF has had one going at SOME POINT in your playtime. In that way, literally all players have been "tainted".

Honestly if you didn't know one was used and no one told you, how did you get the advantage? If you went up to a random person and said, "I'm sorry but I was in an FC that used DPS meters, but they never told me my numbers and I never asked," the response you'll get is "...so what?" or "Um, okay." People only really start getting upset with them once people get kicked out of parties simply for not having enough DPS (which was tracked and measured by a meter, not by...things not dying).

So really... I think you're over thinking it a little.

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Originally Posted by zoqor

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1. The most popular BLM guide openly has a DPS meter in its tutorial. By watching that am I cheating? Why doesn't SE remove it from the DPS forum if it is not allowed?

2. If you are in a FC whose members use one of these things, are you by proxy benefiting from it and thus have a competitive advantage over others? Should you leave that FC (which I've already done)? Is the "damage already done" though to your character's integrity?
...

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1. You can report such violations by clicking the little yellow triangle in the bottom left of the post.
2. Whether you choose to associate with such people or not is entirely your decision. Personally, I would also leave such a free company. This isn't because I'd feel I had gained any sort of advantage, though. On the contrary, I think people that use these more often than not are actually crippling themselves; the data they do present is erroneous in many ways. For one, whatever methodology they use to sniff numbers is incomplete; you always know more about your own damage than everyone else's. So the rather accurate running joke is that anyone using a DPS meter is just deluding themselves and reinforcing an unhealthy and inaccurate narcissism. (It's generally unwise to speak ill of any group of players, but since we've already established this behavior is very clearly against terms of service anyway, it seems alright to at least do a tiny bit of analysis as to why it's against the rules). Perhaps more importantly, the usage does a great deal of harm to the game itself. They're frankly the reason people can't do appropriate modifications to the user interface: the ongoing fear is that if any such modification ability is actually officially released, these damage parsers and their unhealthy and elitist mentality will immediately become the focus of the modding. Most importantly, though, any person's contribution is most definitely not so simple as the sum of their damage output. So even if this data were accurate, it fails to take into account everything that's actually going on. Is the idiot crazed with scoring the highest points on his parser even attacking the best target? Is he properly saving bursts of damage for when they're actually strategically needed despite the fact this actually decreases the overall output number? When applicable is he doing things like helping to interrupt key inductions with Sleep? Is he actually dodging appropriately, or is he effectively taking away MP (and DPS) from the healers in some idiotically zealous effort to make his number higher?

So, in summary, I think your "integrity" sounds fine.

The way i would tell you to think of meter usage is like Jaywalking. Its against the law/rules, but its a very minor offense that usually has no victims and isnt often prosecuted in most jurisdictions. If your Jaywalking causes an accident thats when the cops will take it more seriously. If a friend did it so he could give you something, the cops wouldnt be arresting you as an accessory. So in game the "accident" equivalent would be: parsing the group, deciding that you dont think the NIN is contributing enough, telling him so and that you used a 3rd party program to help make the decision, kicking him out, and him reporting you(probly because he thought you were rude and you hurt his feelings). You havent installed a parser let alone done the rest, so you are innocent.

And i cant imagine you actually got any sort of real unfair advantage either. I remember when i did the 4 man titan story fight, i randomely got a group with a healer and 2nd DPS who did not understand how to stay on the platform. At least one of them would go off every time he jumped, because they would get too close to the edge and stand in the red aoe marker. Both me and the tank tried to explain to them what they were doing wrong, but it was pointless. Either they couldnt read english, they were complete idiots, or they were purposefully trolling me and the tank. I stayed with them for almost 45 mins worth of tries and explanations before someone left the group and we all split up. My 2nd group beat it first try with no problems. My roommate got a better group then me, so he beat it right away first try. Did getting a better group give him an unfair advantage? I never thought so, just the way that luck works out sometimes.

tl;dr Quit if you feel you must but you havent actually done anything wrong OP.

Oh, and about the BLM thing you mentioned. I havent actually watched the video in question, but unless they spend a lot of time talking about the meter and really focusing on it then theres likely nothing wrong. I would guess the video is more focused on the class itself and using its skills right.

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Originally Posted by zoqor

I don't want to keep playing this game knowing that I had an unfair advantage, even indirectly. I don't care about "getting in trouble" or if such a thing should or should not be allowed. That's not the angle I'm approaching this from. Others can argue that to the end of time. I just want to know that my character has done nothing wrong because I'm about ready to delete him and move on to another game. I don't like cheating and right now feel like my character that I've worked so hard with is "tainted" forever by this. :(

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Nah, you didn't get an unfair advantage. If someone using a DPS meter was using it to help you improve your DPS numbers, they ONLY thing they were actually doing was confirming the number of the increase. The exact same thing could be done by purely time and visual referencing. If you view using a parser as an unfair advantage, then that'd be like saying coming to the forums and asking for assistance in a better rotation is cheating. It's not =) Just people helping people improve is all. Some are better with numbers and need this as sufficient evidence.

More so, it's just annoying when someone gets their panties in a bunch because the person didn't max out their DPS and were doing 900 DPS instead of 906 if they did "x and y" instead of "y and z". And it's because of those types that people dislike parsers. When they use them to out players and then boot them. Though, those situations are usually from DPS classes doing very low DPS because they don't understand their rotations... which you could easily tell without a parser as well).

I don't use one, but I've run into some people who do and asked them to give me my numbers so I could get a reference. I was sad to see that my tanking DPS was lower than I expected, but afterwards, I tried some stuff out and when I was measured again, I had greatly improved my number. I didn't use it to cheat or gain an unfair advantage, but as a means to motivate myself to improve (essentially getting out of my comfort zone of staying in tank stance the entire time as MT).

Everyone has pretty much nailed it. Don't ask, don't tell. There are videos plastered all over YouTube with parsers. 9 times out of 10, when you go into DF, there is at least one person who has one running. Parsers are most prevalent and used as a tool for raiding. As long as they are not used to grief others, you shouldn't need to worry.

Okay, so to understand this.

Parsers are illegal. Everyone uses them anyway. SE doesn't care unless harrasment is involved. Everyone enjoys the "don't ask to don't tell" elite secret crap of using them.

To me, this stance is beyond absurd for a AAA MMORPG title to take. It is confusing as all heck for new players, morally ambigious, and just leads people into feeling like they've "done something wrong." Mind, I could care less if parsers should be in the game, or should not, or if they're useful, or if they're not, or if people will get in trouble for using them, or not. What I care about is that SE refuses to make a stand on this one way or another and leaves new players feeling guilty. And that's just plain wrong. Anyway, that's my 10 cents... and I don't think I want to play in an environment like that. Parsers aren't the issue, I don't give a crap about them one way or another, SE unwilling to provide a new player an official answer is the issue.

There's an official answer. It's not supposed to be used and is against the ToS.

It's a minor issue. They just don't want people to use parsing to grief others and making players feel alienated or singled out. One of those grey areas. If they said, "it's allowed" they would basically be saying it's ok to single people out for under performing, even when they are trying their best, thus creating a bad environment to play in.

I mean... does your government follow every law to a tee? Have you never speed 5 miles over the speed limit on the road while driving? The law says 60mph, I went 62. Why don't they enforce things?! Kinda same thing. It's not that big of a deal and if you went to court and the judge saw you were pulled over for speeding 2 mph over the speed limit, I'm pretty sure he'd laugh and just tell you to go on your way. It's not a big deal.

A ToS has little meaning if its not enforced. Also, if you use an application that is against the ToS to improve your gameplay, then you are in fact cheating. Any other way of looking at it is semantics. Whether they should be allowed? I can't say, but if they are not allowed and you use them, you are a cheater. Anyway, it is what it is, thanks for the responses.

It is 100% against the rules. Square enforces it 100%. They do not, however, actively witch hunt for people violating the rules; as people have said, they must be reported by other players. Beyond that, they will not punish anyone without solid proof. As people have said, this most likely takes the form of someone admitting the usage via in-game chat. Videos, as a general policy, are not accepted as evidence to punish people. With varying degrees of ease, one could alter the image and/or impersonate the character in such a way as to frame someone. I frankly wouldn't put it past some trolls to take a broadcast of me playing from my Twitch channel and adding their own camera and parser feeds. As extremely unlikely as the situation seems in the grand scheme of things, the fundamental principle of never banning the innocent must prevail.

And for the record, it's obviously absurd to say everyone uses them. Of course that's false. You don't use them. I don't use them. A whole lot of people that really don't care enough to post in this thread don't use them. But the cheaters sleep better at night if they convince themselves it's common practice, hang out with like-minded folks to reinforce that notion, and then make the additional logical leap that common practice somehow magically makes something okay.

It's also worth a side note that PvP matches actually do give damage numbers on the scoreboard. Just like with everything else, the amount of damage one's hits add up to is ultimately of far less consequence than many other factors.

So ... if you will only accept a perfect world where every onze of wrongdoing is immediately met with ultimate justice by Game Masters ... this is not the world for you and I suspect there is not one. But you can rest assured that Square actually does enforce their policies as best they can.

So let's see. As an experiment I just reported a few extremely popular threads in the DPS forums for teaching new players how to play their class that link to YouTube videos with parsers and also include data from the parsers in the forum itself. Thus we'll see if "Square enforces it 100%." My thoughts are they don't and won't. Those posts will be on these forums long after I am gone. They tell us we're cheating and then look the other way. And that's wrong; just plain wrong. They need to pick a side and stick with it.

I can almost ensure you that those posts will not be removed. It is 100% illegal, and 0% enforced making unwitting cheaters of us all; those that use the programs and those that are in guilds or parties that use the programs.

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Originally Posted by zoqor

So let's see. As an experiment I just reported a few extremely popular threads in the DPS forums for teaching new players how to play their class that link to YouTube videos with parsers and also include data from the parsers in the forum itself. Thus we'll see if "Square enforces it 100%." My thoughts are they don't and won't. Those posts will be on these forums long after I am gone. They tell us we're cheating and then look the other way. And that's wrong; just plain wrong. They need to pick a side and stick with it.

I can almost ensure you that those posts will not be removed. It is 100% illegal, and 0% enforced making unwitting cheaters of us all; those that use the programs and those that are in guilds or parties that use the programs.

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If you don't know your parse results how are you benefiting exactly? I think you're blowing this up. Laws are meant to create order and protect citizens. Unless someone harasses another with the results, which in itself is a violation, there is no reason to call foul. The act of parsing can, to some extent be done on paper. Using stone, sea, sky you can calculate a parse result, without using ACT. A majority of this forum populace wants a parser in some form, adopted into the game.

They do not want you to be able to data mine for other player locations in PvP or finding hunts before others. That's the sort of thing that makes them against data mining.

Those guides used parsers as evidence to show how to maximize your class, with video proof of what it can do for you. How nice of you to report them.

Also a ToS is a threat. In the end SE is the interpreter of their own "law."

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Originally Posted by zoqor

They need to pick a side and stick with it.

I can almost ensure you that those posts will not be removed. It is 100% illegal, and 0% enforced making unwitting cheaters of us all; those that use the programs and those that are in guilds or parties that use the programs.

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http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/virginia

I see you're location is VA. If you've done any of the following, please report yourself to the nearest police station :D


I think this one is my favorite though

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Children are not to go trick-or-treating on Halloween.

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In regards to your defense on parsing, you're preaching to the choir here. But that's not really what this is about. Per SE... running a parsing application is 100% illegal and against the ToS. The very act of doing it is a violation. Whether the purpose is altruistic and meant to help new players, or done for personal improvement, there is reason to call foul simply because it is against the rules.

Per SE... it was nice that I reported those people for their helpful guides. I did the right thing. Unless told otherwise, those people that spent so much time working on theorycrafting to help new players, are actually cheaters. That's SE's point of view and that's what they tell new players through their ToS.

The thing about the gaming industry is that want to retain players and keep more coming. That is always their goal. They will ban and eliminate those whose will cause issues that will likely cause a decrease in the majority of the community. Obviously data mining is a problem. But I've done manual calculations on my characters to see exactly how my DPS is doing before. It took me about an hour to access myself, whereas the parser would of taken 0 extra time out of my day. The parser would of given me zero information that I couldn't of gotten myself with some effort though. However, using it for grief tactics causes a toxic environment which makes players want to leave. Hence, why they work to prevent it.

No game will be 100% overlords about their every rule on the ToS. It's actually very bad business to do so. Even work places don't do that. Would you fire a great employee for being 5 min late once? No. You give them a warning at worst. MAYBE. More than likely, you don't bother causing a good employee to become jaded towards the company he works for because he was 5 minutes late one day. Why? Because it would be bad business in which the company wouldn't retain employee's very well. Does parsing hurt players? No. Do players who use parsing hurt players? Yes.

I hope you don't take the 100% rule for everything in life. If you're a christian and believe in the bible, you're very likely sinning due to wearing a polyester shirt.

I get it, believe me. But in this case, the opposite effect is happening. I'm a new player, I just subscribed for my very first month. I've just unlocked Heavensward content and am absolutely loving the game. It is wonderful. I don't care about parsing etc. But finding out that my guild uses parsing software means that individuals in that guild are cheaters... per SE's official stance. That means I'm in a guild of cheaters and and thus benefit indirectly from that as a guild consists of the contributions of the whole. So that makes me, indirectly a cheater. And for a new player, who's just started to play the game; plainly put that sucks. I just want to play the game and be happy. SE's ToS, enforced or not, is preventing that and just filling me with guilt.

There is a difference between a cheater and someone who's not following every ToS guideline to a tee. Parsing gives no benefit to any player that could not be gotten by themselves without it aside from saving some time. It simply tells you numbers based on what YOU did. It manipulates nothing for you gameplay wise. That's kind of like saying a soccer player who listened to the ESPN commentators before the game about the other team is cheating... They really aren't.

If it bothers you that they are parsing, then go ahead and leave. You can disagree with their using it if you want. But to call it cheating... that's just not the right word. They are out of compliance maybe. But you can get any information that a parser gives by checking your battle logs carefully. The difference is, it'll take you hours to separate, calculate and evaluate all the data. But being able to do this quickly allows for player to player issues in which you can instantly call people out.

So if it's simply a guilt thing. Then find a group that doesn't parse. No one in my FC or my friends FC parses. That totals around 40 some people that I know personally who don't parse. Now, would I care if they did parse. Not at all. But none of us care that much to bother with it. Enjoy the game. If you're guilt filled about this that you can't handle it, then sorry to hear. But any game you go to will have grey areas like this.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

But to call it cheating... that's just not the right word. They are out of compliance maybe. But you can get any information that a parser gives by checking your battle logs carefully.

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I don't want to drag this on. But at this point I firmly disagree. The ToS say it is illegal to run third party applications that interact with the engine. That's what a parser does. People use them to improve their performance in a game. So, they are using illegal software to gain a competitive edge. That's the very definition of cheating. This is not a gray area. This is black and white. It is a complete violation of the ToS to do something that benefits a character.

Because SE refuses to enforce this, many do it and that means new players like me, who don't give a crap about this stuff, get caught up in it. What SE needs to do is either say it is allowed or that it is not allowed, and enforce it. Plain and simple. For me, it's ruined the game. I've lost my FC, and have no real desire to keep playing. So, that tells me something is wrong with the way things are and SE should do something about that.

There's no such thing as guilt by association in the ToS. Whether your friends and FC mates are breaking the rules or not is on them, not you. I really don't see where you're getting this idea that you're indirectly a cheater just by being around them. But if you don't like to associate with people who will break the rules of a game you're playing, then you can just leave and join another FC instead.

I do agree about the part that SE should do a better job of enforcing their rules. (Not just this one, but they don't enforce their rules against RMT spam or harassment very well either. They made and then immediately dropped rules about the Kick function because keeping rules for it would have required them to enforce them, and they don't like enforcing anything. And they took a ridiculously long time before even clarifying what their rule was in relation to housing plot sales.) But whether they enforce their rules well or not, you can play by the rules and befriend other people who do so, and that would seem to fix the part you're complaining about.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

There's no such thing as guilt by association in the ToS. Whether your friends and FC mates are breaking the rules or not is on them, not you. I really don't see where you're getting this idea that you're indirectly a cheater just by being around them.

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On this, I think you are right. I was thinking well what if I started a new character on a different server, etc. (which I really, really do not want to do). What if say, that character was at the end of a successful dungeon and some guy started posting DPS results. Am I then guilty by association? I mean, I left the FC as soon as I learned about this and did not partake directly. That could be the same scenario. I think, plain and simple, peoples' use of things like this are going to affect others positvely and negatively just by virtue that we're all in the same game. But I don't think I'm guilty... and I'm going to stand by that and keep pushing on.

OK, first of all you should go look up "letter of the law vs spirit of the law". A ToS has to be written in such a way that, if needed, it can hold up in a court of law. Hence the wording on the usage of parsers and the black-and-white nature of its use. This would be the letter of the law. The spirit of the law is intended to stop people from using a parser as a means to accuse someone of playing poorly or some other such abusive context.

Regarding your fear of cheating by association, there is no way that you could be at fault so no reason to worry about anything happening to you. To keep with the speeding analogy, if you are riding with someone in a car and they are speeding does that mean that you should get a speeding ticket too? You were gaining the benefit of their speeding by getting to your destination faster so by your reasoning you should be at fault as well. Of course, this is not the case. Same line of reasoning applies to your dilemma.

Indeed. No actionable terms of service violations by association. But if you know someone's bad, you probably don't want to hang out with them anyway.

Once you have another computer program running that's analyzing data from the game client, do you suddenly develop a strong moral imperative and ensure it's only used in a completely fair way? Unlikely. In fact, I recall a variety of scandal and banning back when people could not beat content on their own for a while and the first group that did, did so using what is very likely the exact program people have alluded to. It wasn't its ability to tell them "Hey, Fred, you did more damage than the bard that fight!" It was its ability to provide significantly more obvious cues for when they needed to perform certain combat tasks (Twintania's Twister, mostly, if memory serves). This is obviously something people can see on their own (especially if they have enough sense to focus target Twintania). And now Twintania tends to most often die without even getting a chance to cast Twister (Twisters?). But this declaration that it's not cheating becomes increasingly blurry even for stalwart supporters of DPS parsers when you start to replace fight's actual cues with more idiot-proof ones.

This is "New Player Help." Let's not try to encourage new players to cheat.

Oh, and regarding letter of the law ... the terms already say Square can just ban anyone for any reason. They have that very thoroughly legally covered. They don't need to be additionally vague or ominous. The text about third party software that analyzes game data seems genuinely intended to say that this is cheating, not that they want to have extra legal support in case someone is mean about it. And here's the quote for you (all caps theirs, not mine):

SQUARE ENIX MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE FFXIV SERVICE ACCOUNTS, CHARACTERS, VIRTUAL GOODS, OR THE SERVICE ALTOGETHER, AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE OR LIABILITY TO YOU.

I just think this whole situation is absurd. Plain and simple... there are very popular job guides in the official SE forum here that openly discuss theorycrafting obtained through the use of a parser, and link to YouTube videos where a parser is clearly displayed. These posts have been out there for years.

So, as I noted before as an "experiment" I reported them. They are still there. SE needs to either say, no you can't use these and ban people that talk about them, or just say something like "you use these at your own risk and can be banned if harrasing people with them." But they need to say _something_. Because as things stand now, there is a 90% chance that if I join another FC they'll start talking about DPS parsing... and I'll once again be a "cheater by assocation." The whole "fight club, don't ask don't tell" mentality is ridiculous. I paid money for this game and will not be renewing my subscription. New players should not have to go through this crap.

As we've thoroughly covered, while using the cheat programs is against terms, talking about info derived from them is not. So if these posts are people admitting they use them, then they're actionable. If these posts just talk about data that someone somewhere may have obtained by cheating, they are not actionable.

Ironically, posts to the effect of "I quit" actually are actionable. They're deemed negative since you're clearly not trying to get any help any more but instead are just trying to make a fuss. So ... bye.

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Originally Posted by zoqor

I just think this whole situation is absurd. Plain and simple... there are very popular job guides in the official SE forum here that openly discuss theorycrafting obtained through the use of a parser, and link to YouTube videos where a parser is clearly displayed. These posts have been out there for years.

So, as I noted before as an "experiment" I reported them. They are still there. SE needs to either say, no you can't use these and ban people that talk about them, or just say something like "you use these at your own risk and can be banned if harrasing people with them." But they need to say _something_. Because as things stand now, there is a 90% chance that if I join another FC they'll start talking about DPS parsing... and I'll once again be a "cheater by assocation." The whole "fight club, don't ask don't tell" mentality is ridiculous. I paid money for this game and will not be renewing my subscription. New players should not have to go through this crap.

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You're the first person I've ever seen get butt-hurt "by association." ._.

A large portion (possibly majority) of the community has accepted parsers so long as no harassment is involved. You're like the religious fanatic that is screaming at the crowd to stone a Woman who just wants a Divorce from her husband, who is also alright with the divorce.

basically what everyone has already said itt, don't talk about it ingame or use the results to harass other players. Personally I'm paranoid so I don't use one, though.

I agree it's wrong to use them as the game is designed around not needing or wanting them, and I think it just adds undue, unnecessary stress and obsession. Sometimes I worry that, when combined with other obsessive/hardcore views of the game mechanics, it may potentially greatly distort the feedback the devs receive and how they develop the game, so I have a generally pessimistic view of them. But I also understand people are people and their motivations to use them. I also understand they're not inherently bad and that they have positive uses, even though personally I think the new Stone, Sky, Sea feature replicates most of the positives.

As an individual human being, you have to make the decision about what to care about, not what some ToS says. But before that, you have to understand things are not utterly black and white more often than not. I'm not personally attacking you here; it's just life however uncomfortable. For example, I like to read some of the theorycrafting just because I'm interested in such numbers, but I know in the end it doesn't have a major effect on much of anything in the game. So it's okay if you decide you can't accept parsers and the like, but make sure it's because you feel it's wrong, not because some ToS says it's prohibited. I guess the moral here is: Get your priorities straight.

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Originally Posted by EveK

As we've thoroughly covered, while using the cheat programs is against terms, talking about info derived from them is not. So if these posts are people admitting they use them, then they're actionable. If these posts just talk about data that someone somewhere may have obtained by cheating, they are not actionable.

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I really wish this was true, but by banning Dervy for doing exactly this, it proves this is also technically not allowed. It's completely ridiculous, but that has to do with the forum moderation more than anything with the game moderation and development.

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Originally Posted by EveK

As we've thoroughly covered, while using the cheat programs is against terms, talking about info derived from them is not. So if these posts are people admitting they use them, then they're actionable. If these posts just talk about data that someone somewhere may have obtained by cheating, they are not actionable.

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Actually, those posts link to videos showing the authors explicitly using and discussing the parsers. I mean, click on the link. Parser. So, if SE does not remove those posts, parsers are de facto allowed regardless of the ToS and this is an utterly pointless conversation. BTW, if I ask a question in the forum and become frustrated because the company that I pay money to fails to respond, and consider quitting that's "actionable?" See the irony? They won't act on anything.

eh, I think we've beaten this dead horse enough. It seems quite obvious you are upset over the fact that SE isn't going full nazi on their rulings. If you can't get over it, then leave... I don't see the point in complaining about it for 3 pages, when everyone has pretty much told you the same thing in about 30 different ways. If you're hoping to be the cause of the change for SE to start banning every parser in game by watching every youtube video on the internet, then good luck, but I can tell you now, it isn't going to happen.
https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Its-Not-Going-To-Happen.jpg

And it'll simply cause 1 thing to happen. Parsers will still exist, they simply won't be using them to benefit any players anymore. It'll simply become a black market-esque type of thing that's used in the game between only friends. So basically, the only thing that will happen is the amount of help parsers will be able to provide will disappear and the grief tactics will continue because it's currently not allowed and still happening.

Regardless, SE can't stop them all. They will exist and will always exist. You don't have to play with people who use them. There are plenty out there who don't and plenty more who you will never even know use them because they don't care to use it for anything but their own knowledge. They don't cause you to "cheat by association" and they don't affect you unless someone is using grief tactics against you. If you go to any other mmorpg, they will exist as well. Whether or not the ToS allows it, most likely it'll be the same as here. Good luck to you either way.