DPS Meter Usage?

[zoqor]

All,

I noticed while watching Twitch streams that often there is a DPS meter in the raid. Did some quick research and they're apparently not allowed? Then looking at the black mage DPS guide in the DPS forum and the top guide and sticky and what not links to a YouTube video with one prominently displayed.

I don't really care about using one at all, not really into that. However can I get in trouble for watching streams or videos that use them? Or if people in chat or in a FC are talking about them or using them and I'm a member?

I don't really understand how, if something is not allowed, it is everywhere. :-| __Not debating whether that is right or wrong__, just don't quite understand if I have to report people or what so I don't get accused of cheating.

[Niwashi]

They are against the rules. (At least most of them are. The actual rule is that they can't latch onto the communication between the game and the server. Ones that rely on your saving the chat log to a file and then just read that file are technically allowed, but are probably not the ones you've seen.) But SE isn't very aggressive about enforcing those rules, so many players ignore them.

Basically, the only way SE will do anything about it is if somebody (A) uses a prohibited DPS meter, then (B) says in in-game chat that they've done so, and then (C) is reported by another player for it.

That last step, of someone reporting them, will typically only happen if the chat discussion had turned abusive and they used the numbers from their DPS meter to insult or kick another player, (for instance kicking a new or lower level player for not being able to keep up as high of DPS numbers as a higher level and far better geared player, even when they are putting out DPS that's good for the level of content they're in).

At any rate, you can't get in trouble for other people using a DPS meter. If other people talk in chat about it, you could report them if you wanted to, but are also free to not report them if you'd rather not.

[zoqor]

Thanks for the answer.

My concerns as a new player are:

1. The most popular BLM guide openly has a DPS meter in its tutorial. By watching that am I cheating? Why doesn't SE remove it from the DPS forum if it is not allowed?

2. If you are in a FC whose members use one of these things, are you by proxy benefiting from it and thus have a competitive advantage over others? Should you leave that FC (which I've already done)? Is the "damage already done" though to your character's integrity?

I don't want to keep playing this game knowing that I had an unfair advantage, even indirectly. I don't care about "getting in trouble" or if such a thing should or should not be allowed. That's not the angle I'm approaching this from. Others can argue that to the end of time. I just want to know that my character has done nothing wrong because I'm about ready to delete him and move on to another game. I don't like cheating and right now feel like my character that I've worked so hard with is "tainted" forever by this.

[AskaRay]

Wow um...
I wouldn't go that far, deleting your character. It's a more "don't ask don't tell" type of thing. I can PROMISE you someone you've run with in the DF has had one going at SOME POINT in your playtime. In that way, literally all players have been "tainted".

Honestly if you didn't know one was used and no one told you, how did you get the advantage? If you went up to a random person and said, "I'm sorry but I was in an FC that used DPS meters, but they never told me my numbers and I never asked," the response you'll get is "...so what?" or "Um, okay." People only really start getting upset with them once people get kicked out of parties simply for not having enough DPS (which was tracked and measured by a meter, not by...things not dying).

So really... I think you're over thinking it a little.

[EveK]

...
1. The most popular BLM guide openly has a DPS meter in its tutorial. By watching that am I cheating? Why doesn't SE remove it from the DPS forum if it is not allowed?

2. If you are in a FC whose members use one of these things, are you by proxy benefiting from it and thus have a competitive advantage over others? Should you leave that FC (which I've already done)? Is the "damage already done" though to your character's integrity?
...

1. You can report such violations by clicking the little yellow triangle in the bottom left of the post.
2. Whether you choose to associate with such people or not is entirely your decision. Personally, I would also leave such a free company. This isn't because I'd feel I had gained any sort of advantage, though. On the contrary, I think people that use these more often than not are actually crippling themselves; the data they do present is erroneous in many ways. For one, whatever methodology they use to sniff numbers is incomplete; you always know more about your own damage than everyone else's. So the rather accurate running joke is that anyone using a DPS meter is just deluding themselves and reinforcing an unhealthy and inaccurate narcissism. (It's generally unwise to speak ill of any group of players, but since we've already established this behavior is very clearly against terms of service anyway, it seems alright to at least do a tiny bit of analysis as to why it's against the rules). Perhaps more importantly, the usage does a great deal of harm to the game itself. They're frankly the reason people can't do appropriate modifications to the user interface: the ongoing fear is that if any such modification ability is actually officially released, these damage parsers and their unhealthy and elitist mentality will immediately become the focus of the modding. Most importantly, though, any person's contribution is most definitely not so simple as the sum of their damage output. So even if this data were accurate, it fails to take into account everything that's actually going on. Is the idiot crazed with scoring the highest points on his parser even attacking the best target? Is he properly saving bursts of damage for when they're actually strategically needed despite the fact this actually decreases the overall output number? When applicable is he doing things like helping to interrupt key inductions with Sleep? Is he actually dodging appropriately, or is he effectively taking away MP (and DPS) from the healers in some idiotically zealous effort to make his number higher?

So, in summary, I think your "integrity" sounds fine.

[Frizze]

The way i would tell you to think of meter usage is like Jaywalking. Its against the law/rules, but its a very minor offense that usually has no victims and isnt often prosecuted in most jurisdictions. If your Jaywalking causes an accident thats when the cops will take it more seriously. If a friend did it so he could give you something, the cops wouldnt be arresting you as an accessory. So in game the "accident" equivalent would be: parsing the group, deciding that you dont think the NIN is contributing enough, telling him so and that you used a 3rd party program to help make the decision, kicking him out, and him reporting you(probly because he thought you were rude and you hurt his feelings). You havent installed a parser let alone done the rest, so you are innocent.

And i cant imagine you actually got any sort of real unfair advantage either. I remember when i did the 4 man titan story fight, i randomely got a group with a healer and 2nd DPS who did not understand how to stay on the platform. At least one of them would go off every time he jumped, because they would get too close to the edge and stand in the red aoe marker. Both me and the tank tried to explain to them what they were doing wrong, but it was pointless. Either they couldnt read english, they were complete idiots, or they were purposefully trolling me and the tank. I stayed with them for almost 45 mins worth of tries and explanations before someone left the group and we all split up. My 2nd group beat it first try with no problems. My roommate got a better group then me, so he beat it right away first try. Did getting a better group give him an unfair advantage? I never thought so, just the way that luck works out sometimes.

tl;dr Quit if you feel you must but you havent actually done anything wrong OP.

Oh, and about the BLM thing you mentioned. I havent actually watched the video in question, but unless they spend a lot of time talking about the meter and really focusing on it then theres likely nothing wrong. I would guess the video is more focused on the class itself and using its skills right.

[Malicewolf]

I don't want to keep playing this game knowing that I had an unfair advantage, even indirectly. I don't care about "getting in trouble" or if such a thing should or should not be allowed. That's not the angle I'm approaching this from. Others can argue that to the end of time. I just want to know that my character has done nothing wrong because I'm about ready to delete him and move on to another game. I don't like cheating and right now feel like my character that I've worked so hard with is "tainted" forever by this.

Nah, you didn't get an unfair advantage. If someone using a DPS meter was using it to help you improve your DPS numbers, they ONLY thing they were actually doing was confirming the number of the increase. The exact same thing could be done by purely time and visual referencing. If you view using a parser as an unfair advantage, then that'd be like saying coming to the forums and asking for assistance in a better rotation is cheating. It's not =) Just people helping people improve is all. Some are better with numbers and need this as sufficient evidence.

More so, it's just annoying when someone gets their panties in a bunch because the person didn't max out their DPS and were doing 900 DPS instead of 906 if they did "x and y" instead of "y and z". And it's because of those types that people dislike parsers. When they use them to out players and then boot them. Though, those situations are usually from DPS classes doing very low DPS because they don't understand their rotations... which you could easily tell without a parser as well).

I don't use one, but I've run into some people who do and asked them to give me my numbers so I could get a reference. I was sad to see that my tanking DPS was lower than I expected, but afterwards, I tried some stuff out and when I was measured again, I had greatly improved my number. I didn't use it to cheat or gain an unfair advantage, but as a means to motivate myself to improve (essentially getting out of my comfort zone of staying in tank stance the entire time as MT).

[Garotte14]

Everyone has pretty much nailed it. Don't ask, don't tell. There are videos plastered all over YouTube with parsers. 9 times out of 10, when you go into DF, there is at least one person who has one running. Parsers are most prevalent and used as a tool for raiding. As long as they are not used to grief others, you shouldn't need to worry.

[zoqor]

Okay, so to understand this.

Parsers are illegal. Everyone uses them anyway. SE doesn't care unless harrasment is involved. Everyone enjoys the "don't ask to don't tell" elite secret crap of using them.

To me, this stance is beyond absurd for a AAA MMORPG title to take. It is confusing as all heck for new players, morally ambigious, and just leads people into feeling like they've "done something wrong." Mind, I could care less if parsers should be in the game, or should not, or if they're useful, or if they're not, or if people will get in trouble for using them, or not. What I care about is that SE refuses to make a stand on this one way or another and leaves new players feeling guilty. And that's just plain wrong. Anyway, that's my 10 cents... and I don't think I want to play in an environment like that. Parsers aren't the issue, I don't give a crap about them one way or another, SE unwilling to provide a new player an official answer is the issue.

[Malicewolf]

There's an official answer. It's not supposed to be used and is against the ToS.

It's a minor issue. They just don't want people to use parsing to grief others and making players feel alienated or singled out. One of those grey areas. If they said, "it's allowed" they would basically be saying it's ok to single people out for under performing, even when they are trying their best, thus creating a bad environment to play in.

I mean... does your government follow every law to a tee? Have you never speed 5 miles over the speed limit on the road while driving? The law says 60mph, I went 62. Why don't they enforce things?! Kinda same thing. It's not that big of a deal and if you went to court and the judge saw you were pulled over for speeding 2 mph over the speed limit, I'm pretty sure he'd laugh and just tell you to go on your way. It's not a big deal.