There are a number of things in this game that could be considered cheating or against ToS, but are constantly debated on this board. The issue is that players who want to be fair and not break rules often don't partake in these activities. But people who take advantage of them end up gaining numerous benefits.
It seems like it would make a lot of sense to just have a page that defines what is acceptable and what is not.
Here are a few issues that don't seem to be clear to most players.
1. PVP win trading / boosting.
Is it ok to trade wins to get wolf marks or achievement progress?
Is it ok to trade wins to gain ranks in ranked pvp?
Is it ok to have have friends lose against you in order to boost your rank in ranked pvp?
2. Hunt Marker 3rd Party Programs
Is it ok to use a third party program that reports when hunt mobs are seen, and report their location on the map, even when you aren't in the zone? (Yes 3rd party programs are supposed to be against ToS, but there are many linkshells that exist based on this process)
3. Special Offers (Like the current amazon one)
Is it ok to order a product and then cancel it just to get a code?
4. Triple Triad Multi-Account Tournament Wins
Is it ok to use multiple accounts to push yourself to the top of the tournament ranks (getting the nice mgp reward and special cards)?
5. Vermillion Multi-Account Tournament Wins
Is it ok to use multiple accounts to feed yourself wins to rank high in the tournament (for the mgp rewards)
6. House Selling
Is it ok to sell houses (charge people to abandon properties)? Lots of people claim this is against ToS, but people still do this on a regular basis and claim that it's not. Is it ok when people buy multiple houses with different accounts or different characters in order to resell them for profit?
7. Trading Game Codes & Mogstation Items for Gil
Is it ok to trade codes (e.g. the current amazon codes) for gil in game to someone who can't afford to buy from amazon? Is it ok to buy people stuff like fantasia for gil?
Examples of Why These Aren't Clear
I personally wouldn't do what I listed above. But at the same time, they seem to be very acceptable to many people. And there are many threads on this board where people argue about them being against the ToS or being allowed.
For example, in this pvp thread some people justify "boosting" (win trading): http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...9-and-Boosting
And in this thread here people are debating whether or not it's ok to order an amazon product and then cancel it in order to get the code for the promotion items but not spend money: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...is-it-stealing
Similarly if you look back to when the most recent major patch launched, people were debating selling houses.
What I'm Requesting
I'm not arguing SE should ban people, or that the things listed should be allowed. All I'm asking for is official confirmation on what is allowed and not allowed, so that everyone can be on a level playing field .
This could be a rules thread, A lodestone section, an addition to ToS, etc. Anything that would provide specific clarification on what is a ToS violation and what is acceptable, without having to reference an offhand remark from a live letter years ago (e.g. in the case of pvp win trading)
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06-15-2016, 11:14 AMAzurymberCould we please get an official list of what is cheating and what is not?
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06-15-2016, 11:25 AMSaitoHikariFrom what I understand, this thing started out as a chat filter that, for a lot of people, is really the only lasting solution to the RMT bot spam problem. The hunt marker just happens to be an additional feature of that program...Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
For that reason, I'd imagine SE going after people that actually use it would only result in a massive riot, considering the general perception in the community already thinks that SE isn't doing anything about the RMT problem as is. But should SE implement an official chat filter, nobody could argue that the program would have any legitimate use any longer.
(Although that would also likely lead to bots trying to find other ways to get past everyone's filters...) -
06-15-2016, 11:26 AMKurand0
3. Special Offers (Like the current amazon one)
Is it ok to order a product and then cancel it just to get a code?
This isn't really limited to FFXIV itself but it's definitely a pretty crappy thing to do. -
06-15-2016, 12:58 PMHakaseNyan
SE won't be giving a specific list of what's okay and what isn't. Saves the argument of, "it's not on the list" if they did something wrong that wasn't covered. They pretty much reserve the right to warn and/or ban you for anything morally, if not logically(some people are pretty daft) wrong, and not defined. Besides, moral ambiguity doesn't apply to most of those points.
It's fairly obvious people just want to game the system and get away with it. -
06-15-2016, 01:03 PMCakekizyy
If you're not sure, you probably shouldn't be doing it.
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06-15-2016, 01:24 PMKosmos992k
With a defined list of what is considrered cheating you are essentially telling people how they can cheat because they know what to avoid to avoid punishment. If you define principles and guidelines with out specifics, you can respond to any new, previously unknown or unexpected cheat that comes up. With a defined list, you cannot easily respond to new ways of cheating.
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06-15-2016, 02:30 PMChandraNoctis
It's not rocket science. Throwing a match of any sport or game is cheating (deliberately losing for some gain, whether yours or a friends). Trading anything bought with real money for gil is specifically against the TOS. Etc... All of these things involve gaming the system and inherently breaking the rules to some degree.
This is not difficult to figure out and not the question you want answered.
Of course it's cheating - what you want to know is if there are penalties for such actions or if it is considered minor enough to be overlooked. Which is a fair enough question but not one that is likely to be given a definite answer. -
06-15-2016, 02:42 PMKooKooKachoo
I think you might find the answers here. FFXIV User Agreement - FINAL FANTASY XIV Support Center
Instead of making another thread or replying to this, why don't you go ahead and read that and if you personally feel someone has violated any of the listed things why don’t you just report them in game rather than making yet another thread about the same topic for the last two years. -
06-15-2016, 02:52 PMAzurymber
As obvious as some of these things are (like win trading), SE has essentially justified them in the past. When people used to win trade wolves den, I'm fairly sure it was publicly stated people wouldn't be banned. And people were just asked to stop (which they didn't).
So now people are using that to justify win-trading to rank up. Which essentially ruins the entire pvp ranking system (which is meant to be competitive) for people who are legitimately ranking up.
My issue is that the ambiguity ruins a number of different in-game systems. And no one seems to be aware of whether or not things are reportable. People just debate the ethics of things (e.g. in the threads I linked to). But there is no concrete answer on whether or not it's ok. And a lot of people just assume no answer means it's alright to do it. -
06-15-2016, 03:15 PMAlien_Gamer
As others have stated, a defined list will never work. It just tells cheaters what to avoid without actually stopping them. Its also impossible to create a list of every concievable means of cheating; all you can do is create a set of broad guidelines to fit as many scenarios as possible. This is called the Terms of Service. Perfect? No. But its the best you'll get.
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06-15-2016, 03:24 PMAzurymberIn a lot of other MMOs it's fairly regular for GMs to clarify ambiguous situations. Even FFXI was clear at times about what was considered cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer
Some MMOs even publicly ban cheaters at times to create a deterrent.
For example in FFXI they mass-banned people who duped the drops from a boss in TOAU.
And in GW2 they did this: http://kotaku.com/hackers-mmo-charac...nne-1702670398
The issue here is that people don't seem to have any idea what is considered legit.
100s of people will say selling houses is against TOS
100s of people will say selling houses is ok
People will refer to GM posts in month-old threads that no one can really confirm to prove their point.
A list doesn't have to be absolute. It can just cover issues that are clear problems.
By not having a list, people who risk cheating benefit a lot.
While people who try to play fair kind of get screwed.
For example, someone who specifically bought a plot last major patch to sell it may make 50mil - 100mil profit.
While someone who thought it's against ToS did not have that opportunity.
When people shout in town to report those selling, other people shout back that it's allowed. That seems problematic. -
06-15-2016, 03:25 PMKooKooKachooI do not even see your name on the leaderboard, how does win-trading even affect you? It surely hasn't ruined the people that have placed in the top 100.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
If you or anyone else is looking for a justification why not just report people in question and get an answer from the GM instead of posting so many topics about the same thing. It is not really your job to worry about every single person. How has this personally ruined anything in game for you? As they say threads with more thumbs up get more attention if you aren’t getting notice by now they obviously don't care so you should probably just spend your efforts in game reporting them to GMs. -
06-15-2016, 03:28 PMAzurymberI'd like to PVP next round (I couldn't this time as I was too busy IRL). But if people are just going to win-trade to get ahead, there isn't much purpose to spending hours slowly grinding my way up the ranks, when people will just boost each other a week before completion and overtake everyone who worked their way up there.Quote:
Originally Posted by KooKooKachoo
Win trading will also deter other people from investing time in ranked PVP, which will make queue times longer.
For example, when people started forming win-trade linkshells in the wolves-den days, the queue times shot up drastically. because most people just win-traded to get the gear, rather than pvp legitimately (which obviously took longer).
By doing something simple like stating "Win-trading is against TOS", people who may risk win-trading/boosting to get ahead now, may decide it's not worth the risk. And thus Ranked PVP may remain somewhat viable as an actual ranked system.
Further, not everything is about me. There seems to be something ethically wrong with the idea that an individual who cheats their way up the ranks will knock off a person who legitimately worked their way up. Someone may have spent 100 hours to get one of the pvp rewards, and lose it because an individual was able to out-rank them in a single day through "shady" means. -
06-15-2016, 03:35 PMalimdia
Almost everything you mentioned is a grey zone, they can't give you a clear answer because there isn't one, it's decided per case.
And the Amazon stuff has nothing to do with SE, that's Amazon's responsibility. -
06-15-2016, 08:16 PMKerii
This is as close as you're going to get. http://support.na.square-enix.com/fa...6&id=5382&la=1
Contrary to popular opinion there is no such thing as a gray area in ToS agreements. It isn't a vague guideline, but a contractual agreement. As such, players should (in good conscious) be weary of the fact. To clarify:
1,4,5: Inappropriate behavior designed to disrupt the intended way of doing things. (Harmful to other players)
2: Disruptive to the game balance because it introduces factors that the developers didn't intend, nor can they control. In many cases ends in player disputes and harassment.
3,6,7: These are all types of fraud or scamming because you are trying to profit in the same manner that RMT would. Items for gil is still RMT if you bought the item from SE or the game. -
06-15-2016, 09:07 PMZojhaI would actually argue there is and name parsing as example. From your link:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerii
The following activities are also prohibited in FINAL FANTASY XIV.
•Modifying, analyzing, integrating and reverse engineering game data
It is very clearly prohibited to analyze the game data. Also, using third party tools is strictly prohibited. As such, parsing is a very clear cut case of cheating/prohibited activities. Despite this, Yoshi-P himself made a post on the PvP forums in which he considered changing log data for PvP in order to prevent parsing there, rather than acting against the violation as a whole. I'm very much inclined to argue that grey areas exist if the lead developer actively tries to protect a certain form of ToS violation. -
06-15-2016, 09:52 PMDalvy
A list is not the solution. You will always have people debating the semantics, with their own sources to counter the argument.
Take botting for instance. That's one person paying several hundred dollarydoos to play 10 toons at once. Is it cheating? You may think so, but it's perfectly legal in itself.
"if it's not in the EULA there's nothing wrong with it." -
06-15-2016, 10:30 PMKeriiI am not sure we read the same post. You should read it over again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3696803 -
06-15-2016, 10:38 PMDamianFatale
I feel like code of conduct/tos needs to be as clear as possible. They really should be more specific.
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06-15-2016, 10:48 PMReinhaI imagine this would fall under RMT, real money trade, which is a ban-worthy offense. You trade real money or something that costs real money for gil or other in-game goods. It makes no difference if John gives Jack the price of Fantasia in dollars and gets gil, or if he buys the Fantasia for Jack and gets gil. So no, it's not ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
Trading real life goods for an in-game item that costs real money is fine though, unless re-sale is forbidden and gifting is not an option. You could, for example, trade a pizza for a Mog Station item. You can also trade in-game goods for in-game money, for example selling raid runs or taking crafting orders for a gil fee. This is as long as it doesn't disrupt others' ability to play the game (house selling).
Edit.
Not so sure about the pizza thing anymore. If the last part refers only to the re-sale of an item code, then it's probably ok to buy an item for someone by changing the payment method in exchange for a pizza or something. It doesn't state anywhere that a direct purchase for someone in exchange for real life goods is forbidden.Quote:
RMT is defined as the selling and buying of virtual assets for real-world money or services. Virtual assets may include, without limitation:
- Accounts
- Characters
- In-game currency (gil)
- In-game services
- In-game items or gift codes purchased on the Mog Station
Items and gil obtained illegally through 3rd party tools or RMT activities can affect the game’s economic stability and disrupt the game play balance. Some 3rd party programs contain viruses and spyware that can be harmful to other players unbeknownst to the 3rd party program user. This can lead to a leak of a user’s personal data, character deletion, or other unfortunate circumstances. SQUARE ENIX has a zero-tolerance policy for 3rd party tools and RMT.
Here's another:
Quote:
2.2 Real Money Trading, Farming and Power-Leveling.
You may not sell, rent, hire, charge, mortgage, purchase or exchange for real-world money or value any in-game currency, accounts, characters, in-game services, or in-game virtual items. You may not play the Game for the purpose of acquiring virtual items or advancement in game play on behalf of a third-party or for the purpose of selling any virtual assets to a third party for real-world money, specifically including gold-farming and power-leveling services.
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06-16-2016, 12:34 AMBourne_EndeavorSolely for Wolf Marks? Yes. But only if both teams agree. We know this because no one has ever been banned throughout Wolves' Dens existence. The Feast though... may be murkier waters. Win trading to boost your rank is likely to result in a suspension or ban.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
This can get you banned, yes. I heard of a few who have for the very reason you stated. Those linkshells get around it the same way people who parse do. They don't mention it.Quote:
2. Hunt Marker 3rd Party Programs
Is it ok to use a third party program that reports when hunt mobs are seen, and report their location on the map, even when you aren't in the zone? (Yes 3rd party programs are supposed to be against ToS, but there are many linkshells that exist based on this process)
Nothing. SE has no means of tracking you or your purchase, even if they wanted to. Furthermore, they have little incentive to ban people as those doing this will continue to sub and aren't hurting the experience of other players. Punishment-- if there is any -- would be at Amazon's discretion. Your account there could be suspended, but not your FFXIV account.Quote:
3. Special Offers (Like the current amazon one)
Is it ok to order a product and then cancel it just to get a code?
I don't know anyone using multiple accounts but plenty who do this with a friend. None have ever been banned. So I doubt they enforce anything.Quote:
4. Triple Triad Multi-Account Tournament Wins
Is it ok to use multiple accounts to push yourself to the top of the tournament ranks (getting the nice mgp reward and special cards)?
See above.Quote:
5. Vermillion Multi-Account Tournament Wins
Is it ok to use multiple accounts to feed yourself wins to rank high in the tournament (for the mgp rewards)
Not only have the devs/community team outright said this will get you into trouble. Reddit had a thread showing someone actually banned (or at least in GM jail) for exploiting the housing market when 3.3 launched. I believe if you resell your house at the same price you bought it (or very near the equivalent), you won't be flagged. The latter does need some clarification from SE though.Quote:
6. House Selling[/I][/B][/COLOR]
Is it ok to sell houses (charge people to abandon properties)? Lots of people claim this is against ToS, but people still do this on a regular basis and claim that it's not. Is it ok when people buy multiple houses with different accounts or different characters in order to resell them for profit?
No. You will be suspended for this as SE equates it to RMT. No in-game items can be sold for real world currency. The RP community ran into an issue a few years back when artists accepted gil for art work. They were told to stop by SE, though in that case, no one received any punishment since the rules were vague and the intent wasn't exploitive. Sure, you can get around this but it can get you into trouble if caught.Quote:
7. Trading Game Codes & Mogstation Items for Gil
Is it ok to trade codes (e.g. the current amazon codes) for gil in game to someone who can't afford to buy from amazon? Is it ok to buy people stuff like fantasia for gil?
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06-16-2016, 02:00 AMBeckettAbsolutely, this is how most honest people act. However, the problem is that there are a lot of dishonest people who will continue to cheat, despite knowing it's wrong, because "SE didn't say we couldn't."Quote:
Originally Posted by Cakekizyy
Triple Triad tournaments, for example. I doubt any of the win traders topping the leader boards at every tournament don't realize what they're doing is wrong, but they will continue to do it regardless, until SE outright tells them that they will be punished for it. -
06-16-2016, 05:28 AMalimdiaYou're missing the point, the grey area is whether they decide to enforce their rules or not, ToS wise they try to cover every single scenario that might or not happen, they reserve the right to terminate your account for any or no reason, it doesn't mean they will one day start banning people out of boredom. If you typed 1 single bad word in chat your account can be permanently banned, but the grey area is whether they do it or not, they analyze this per case and then decide if they want to act.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerii
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06-16-2016, 11:40 AMTsukino
There are not people who don't know these things are cheating.
There are people who know it's cheating and don't do it, and there are people who know it's cheating but think if they cry about it on the forums enough it will become OK.