level 60 hall of novice for endgame

Yesterday I did Sohr Khai and cleared it in about 20-25 minutes.
Today I did Sohar Khai and barely survived it after 45+ minutes.

The difference being yesterday I did it with friends in my FC I know to be experienced and competent and Today the roulette gave me a black mage returning after a hiatus that fancied himself Elsa and only want to cast ice magic. The DPS really suffered. It wasn't a matter of low ilvl or lag or anything. This guy has simply zero idea of what he was doing.


Unfortunately this isn't an original story. Every so often I'll run into a warrior that doesn't have provoke, A Machinist that doesn't know what his turret does. Once I had to explain to a summoner how fester worked, and he was level 60! There is even a 300+ page thread dedicated to these stories. I don't mind teaching people things or explaining mechanics of a fight if someone asks, but I sort of expect that the people in expert roulette are... well experts.


I don't need everyone to be raid tier level good but so many people just plow through the story with echo buffs and have never bothered to learn the job they play. There should be some basic tutorial on the optimal rotation at level 60 or even clearing some Stone Sky Sea task within a certain time limit that gives you a letter grade and it would lock you out of expert roulette and extreme primals/raids until you clear that threshold.

If we could just get them to do basic training I suspect we would have less people screaming that final steps and the weeping city are too hard. I will grant they are a little more intense but I don't think they were that hard 90% of the mechanics are repurposed things we've seen in older raids/primals. I had a lot of fun learning them but the difficulty is night and day when I did final steps with my friends that each can rub two brain cells together and when I did final steps with a scholar who couldn't grasp the concept of a cleave and died every 90 seconds by standing too close to the tank. Maybe instead of nerfing content into the ground we could all step up our game a bit. A teeny tiny bit of challenge in the MSQ is fun it keeps things interesting and makes us all better players for rising above it.

Not every paying customer has the same idea of fun. That's just how it is. Of course harassment isn’t allowed, but I’m not drawing that card here. Besides, if you do PUG's, not all of them will be perfect. Actually, most won’t be. That's part of playing PUG's.

Never expecting perfection. I just want my black mages to know how to cast fire 4. and my tanks to know what provoke does by level 60.

There is a limit to "fun" before you're hurting everyone else around you.

You might think ice Mage isn't so bad as atleast they are doing Something.

But where is the line drawn? Is 60 minute dungeons ok?

Obviously I think we all agree running into AoE's for fun is not ok. So where is the line drawn?

How bad are we going to allow people to be? Just questions.

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

There is a limit to "fun" before you're hurting everyone else around you.

You might think ice Mage isn't so bad as atleast they are doing Something.

But where is the line drawn? Is 60 minute dungeons ok?

Obviously I think we all agree running into AoE's for fun is not ok. So where is the line drawn?

How bad are we going to allow people to be? Just questions.

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those are actually good questions I have been asking myself. I stopped doing expert by myself and run with friends instead less struggle, kinda sad I had to result to this because there is good players out there but so many are not and it's ruining it for me. I dont find it fun at all when PUGs stay in AOEs and tanks don't know that an healer shouldn't be tanking and then start to insult me because I died

See I don't think you should have to fear expert. Fear leveling roulette or even mentor, they are new/learning and I get that. But when a player isn't pulling their weight its very obvious and does a disservice to the others in the group. There should be a minimal floor of acceptable skill you should reach before you can do expert or other end game activities that a lot of players aren't reaching but very easily could if they stopped to put a slight modicum of effort into learning rotations, doing mechanics, and standing out of glowing pulsing circles created by enemies.

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

But where is the line drawn? Is 60 minute dungeons ok?

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Yes 60 minute dungeons are okay...so are 15 minutes runs and full 90 minute raid and dungeon runs. If anything I respect the people more who struggle and keep trying until the timer runs out rather than people who ragequit after first wipe or first 30 minutes because not fast enough clears for them.

They at least have the courage and determination to keep trying. Even if the timer was 3 hours long and they kept trying, push ahead for the full 3 hours then finally cleared it at 2 hours and 59 minutes...that is also okay. If you can clear it quicker then good for you but it is okay to take as long as it takes and people would earn my respect more for not giving up or ragequiting compared to whining about how long it takes other people on here to clear something.

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Originally Posted by OranKells

There is even a 300+ page thread dedicated to these stories.

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That thread is not specifically just about the people you describe here. Keep in mind it also contains a huge amount of stories about skilled players being impatient and/or rude/arrogant jerks. Honestly I would rather do a run with less skilled players that are compassionate, kind and funny but taking 90 minutes to clear rather than spending 20 minutes in a run with jerks who happen to be more skilled for example.

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

But where is the line drawn? Is 60 minute dungeons ok?

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For me, No, 60 minute dungeons are not okay. This is specifically why I run expert with a fellow DPS from my FC that is as good as/better than me because our very first Sohr Khai run was maybe 15-20 minutes. Day 2, it was 9-10. Yeah, I get it, "its up to us to party with friends so we can avoid PUGs" but I'd love to not always have to rely on my 1-2 friends all the time. Weeping city took us the entire 120 minutes, which is fairly common from what I've read today, but thats a huge chunk of time for someone like me. In fact, our tank was literally raging and yelling the whole time because of it.

Anyway, to answer your post, I personally draw the line at anything above 25 minutes in a dungeon. That means its usually a new tank (which is okay) or 1 not-so-excellent DPS (but not terrible). I wont rage quit if its longer, but I'll be annoyed to myself, quietly, complaining to my FC.

Honestly assuming everyone is new and barely at the item level requirement you should be able to do almost every 4 man dungeon in about 30 minutes provided it goes smoothly. The timer is incredibly generous and its not there to pressure you but mainly to reserve server resources so people don't stay logged in or afk in instances. If you're taking longer than a half hour to finish a dungeon you're doing something wrong.

Heck, I'd settle for having your level 60 job quest be a requirement for taking said job into level 60 content. How many people have we seen in the horror stories thread that haven't done them? There's even a popup now that tells you when you have a job quest available!

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Originally Posted by OranKells

Never expecting perfection. I just want my black mages to know how to cast fire 4. and my tanks to know what provoke does by level 60.

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Basically this. Every time there is a complaint or criticism towards players not even knowing the basics of how to play (or simply refusing or neglecting to play) we are called elitists and accused of expecting perfection. No I just want you to do the bare minimum. Hall of the Novice for level 60! And maybe beyond.