I think MSQ Roulette does more harm than good, but how could it be improved?

I had an MSQ Roulette earlier today — Castrum Meridianum. Both Healers were new, first-time players. The SCH naïvely said hello, introduced herself, mentioned she was new.

So what happened?

Both Tanks immediately began speedpulling everything between Searchlights and First Boss, while the two confused Sprout healers obliviously tried to watch their cutscene, unaware everyone was dying.

The rest of the run was messy. The tanks stubbornly continued trying to mass-pull and speedclear everything (while one kept complaining about the SCH trying to watch cutscenes), many deaths occurred, and the poor WHM (who deserved 8 commendations) somehow kept most of us alive while frantically canceling every cutscene she encountered and having multiple heart attacks.

Meanwhile, I kept trying to type the most advice or guidance I could squeeze in while also trying to stave off wipes by actually DPSing and not getting locked out of each battle. In the end though — as usual — mostly all I could do was wince and try to keep up.

This is not a new or surprising story, this is a normal day in MSQ Roulette. I think this is an absolutely terrible way to treat Sprouts, and a horrible way for excited new players to have their first big story arc capped off.

I think this same thought after so many MSQ Roulettes finish — "Wow, that must have really been disappointing for the new player" — and it's exactly how my 2.0 MSQ finished several months ago: a disorienting rush while frantically canceling cutscenes.

But I don't know how to fix the problem, so I always just leave feeling guilty and then move on with the day. After how badly that poor WHM / SCH were treated today, though, I am motivated to try saying something.

Sprouts are the lifeblood of Eorzea. Without an influx of excited new players to keep the world alive, it will slowly wither away. And the payoff to 50 levels of MSQ is handled so poorly, that it's as if SE isn't thinking about the effects on new players at all.

Ultimately, I do not blame the players for this Speedclear Meta, though:

Running Meridianum for the 100th time is a little dull already, expecting a majority of players to do that and watch those same cutscenes again and again is asking way too much of the average individual (of which I count myself, for better or worse).

Human nature is something that needs to be anticipated and designed around — I think it is the Developers' responsibility to prevent this sort of issue from harming the experience of new players. And, respectfully, I do not think SE has been very responsible about this at all.

As it stands right now, the final 2.0 MSQ experiences feel more like a hazing and brutal rite-of-passage than an exciting finale to a personal story. Yes, most of us have gone through this — but I would feel better if further new players did not have to keep going through it the way I did.

Why does this problem only begin at MSQ Roulette? Some possible reasons:

• Parties can't crazy-speedclear L10-49 group content, because the iLevel sync is stricter.
• Pulling with 1 member missing is more punishing in L10-49 content, because it's a Light Party. Especially pulling without your Tank or Healer.
• Leveling Roulette's rewards don't attract impatient, jaded veterans as much as the MSQ Roulette payout does.
• Cutscenes are much shorter in L10-49 content, and limited to only the beginning and ends of content (and sometimes a 2-3 minute scene before a boss).
• The ratio of time spent watching Cutscenes vs. time spent playing is much more skewed in MSQ Roulette than any other content I've encountered.
• More of the cutscenes in leveling content keep the Safety Rails on, preventing even impatient groups from leaving someone behind.

Possible solution 1: Community-driven MSQ events (Solution quality: Weak)

The community could try to help. We could have, 'MSQ Days', to go along with 'CT Sundays', 'Shatterdays', etc. Where we agree to chauffer newbies through their MSQ Roulette so they can finish their storyline in peace.

The problem is, this is mostly a feel-good solution, but not a real one. Because the number of new players that would ever be aware of this would be small. And then, even the ones aware might not all utilize it — they might be too intimidated, etc (after all, L1-49 only teaches you to use Duty Finder to solve all things).

So I think, even if we tried to do this, more often than not most Sprouts would still endure MSQ Roulette speedruns as their storyline finale.

Possible solution 2: Remove MSQ Roulette (Solution quality: Poor)

I don't think this is a very good idea, because new players would have even more trouble finishing their MSQ (especially since Party Finder is not a solution new players are ever trained to use before L50).

Also, it would probably just lead to a different kind of rushed speedclear (Unsync'd i230 L60 players solo'ing the place for Poetics bonuses).

Possible solution 3: Change the rewards of MSQ Roulette (Solution quality: Probably pointless)

If MSQ was like Leveling Roulette and only rewarded XP, it would probably draw in a different crowd of players. For example, not bored level-capped players just trying to squeeze out some more Relic points each day.

However, I see this as an ultimately pointless change: It still wouldn't solve the problem that the cutscene structure in MSQ Roulette is just not designed to be compatible with a combination of New Players (seeing scenes for the first time) and experienced players (that just want to play and finish).

I think the only way to really solve anything about MSQ Roulette is to begin at the source of the issue, the cutscene conflict between New and Experienced players.

Possible solution 4: Make MSQ Roulette iLevel sync much stricter (Solution quality: Probably pointless)

If groups were sync'd closer to the intended level, then they would not be able to speedclear as aggressively.

However, this would probably solve absolutely nothing:

• There are speedclear videos on YouTube from 2013. So the Speedclear Meta is not remotely new, and was doable even in much weaker gear.
• Lower iLevel would not change the duration of cutscenes, nor the impatience of players that want to do more with their limited play time than watch the same cutscene for the 50th time.
• Inflating clear times would only reduce the number of players willing to queue, as well as the time required to clear a run (thus, inflating queue times and possibly making new players give up entirely).
• (probably more issues)

Possible solution 5: Block cutscene skipping in MSQ Roulette (Solution quality: Very Poor)

If no one could skip cutscenes in MSQ Roulette, then no one would get left behind.

But I foresee these consequences (and more) from such a change:

• Queue times inflate severely (not only would each run take much longer, but much fewer players would be willing to queue at all). New players might be waiting 90-120+ minutes for a pop, which is also not ideal at all.
• A different sort of abuse becomes possible. Does SE implement a time limit on reading dialogue boxes (possibly rushing some players), or does SE allow unlimited time (potentially trapping the group in Cutscene Limbo for a very long time)?

Personally, I am not going to pretend I'm so good a person. If I knew every single MSQ Roulette would involve watching every single cutscene between start and last boss, in full, every time — I would not queue MSQ Roulette. It would just take too much time relative to the reward.

Even if SE increased the reward to absurd amounts (to bribe players into sitting through the long cutscene delays), queue times would probably still be very long, and the experienced players on 'babysitting duty' would probably become very bitter and unhappy, just doing another tedious chore each day.

Possible solution 6: Solo Duty with NPC Allies (Solution quality: Expensive)

What SE could do, is make it so that Meridianum and Praetorium fill out your party with simple AI NPC allies that will Tank, Heal, or DPS for you. Basically, similar to what happens during many FATEs or MSQ solo-duties.

Mechanics in MSQ Dungeons are very simple, at i130+ Sync most mechanics can simply be blundered through. So the NPCs don't have to be very smart AI, they just have to do simple things — hold Enmity, heal a lot, shoot things.

Not even actual imaginary Party members (meaning, not like a Chocobo). Just NPCs that are helping you, by holding Enmity, healing you, etc. Maybe add in a chunky Echo buff to help Sprouts that will be entering in their i90 AF1 sets.

This would allow a new player to queue solo and complete the story at their own pace, without having to introduce anything complicated (like actual Chocobo-like party companions) or re-tune the entire instance for 1 player truly solo.

What about players leveling with friends?
What SE could do, is scale the number of helper NPCs. So if you queue with your 3 friends, then Meridianum and Praetorium would fill in the last 4 spots with NPCs. And if you queue alone, then you would get 7 NPC allies.

I think this is a good compromise, but it's 'Expensive' — While it's not a radical re-design, it would still take a lot of developer resources away from other issues and projects to implement and QA the changes.

I would argue that such an important change to the new player experience would be worth the resource cost — but I'm sure many will not agree with me. Personally, I think that long-term health of a world like Eorzea (Hydaelyn?) must keep the happiness of new players in mind, or the entire world slowly collapses from the bottom-up.

This is my dilemma, personally. I see that the current situation is pretty awful for new players, and that SE should not allow Sprouts to be treated this way, nor to end their epic story journey in such a confusing and disappointing manner.

But, I don't know what to do to solve it — every solution is flawed, sometimes as much or more than the current status-quo.

Does anyone else have ideas for a better solution?

this is going to be an issue regardless of content. I was tanking one of the new dungeons with 2 dps that were new. The healer was a jerk and just kept trying to rush me while I was in the process of explaining each boss fight before we started so that they know what to do. if I'm tanking or dps a dungeon with new people i like giving them a heads up so that everyone is on the same page.

Its been a issue for a while but nothing you can do unless SE fixes it, but then again you have people who just want to breeze through it without experiencing that 2.0 grandeur

As a new (well, new-ish by now) player, I've taken to skipping cutscenes at all times regardless. For one, I recognized that some are long, and if you're in the group waiting for someone to watch, you can get a little bored. But also, when I found that I can just go back to an inn and replay cutscenes anyway, I'm just not bothered with seeing them right away.

I haven't gotten to that particular run (close, though), so I haven't seen any dungeon with scenes throughout or anything. Would be difficult to balance for those. Unless maybe dungeons were built with "airlocks," zones where scenes trigger, and doors don't open until everyone is ready, similar to dungeon start.

A possible solution, at least to trim down on waiting for long scenes at the start of a duty, could possible add a "Watch cutscene" selection when queuing up, to get it out of the way while you wait

well there are 2 ways how to handle such situations via duty finder :

1) skip cut scenes and re watch them in an inn of your choice.
2) watch the cut scenes and let the impatient people run by themselves. If it isn't a tank that person will learn real quick that pulling 300 mobs isn't gonna work without the actual tank pulling it or with help from healers other dps. Some people so need to die 5 times before they then understand that waiting 3 seconds isn't big a deal, some do actually leave and you can fill those spot within seconds.

While I understand both sides (having to run old content fifty thousand times or more can be plain boring, or when being new not able to enjoy the content without being rushed) the problem lays somewhere else.
It isn't even the problem of having a MSQ roulette that players can choose to participate or to ignore, it's the new mentality of SE trying to keep old and none relevant content alive.

Sure it's great for leveling alts but to be clear here, not many of us use that roulette for leveling since there are way better methods, not many of us use it for the gil reward. But people will use it more often nowadays because of the new relics. After SE removing/lowering/nerfing most of the content that rewarded poetics by itself and via roulette's or even taking out the reward completely, the MSQ roulette is the easiest way (if you do not wanna spam old trials/hunts/beast tribe or alex) to gain poetics per day. I know a lot of casual players that prefer that method when grinding out their relic items, and even tho they do welcome the new players since it gives an additional tome bonus, most of them/us are bored and frustrated since we have to redo old content again and again. SE should be changing the amount of poetics it takes to esoteric. Then we would have people participating in MSQ roulette that actually want to run it and players that are just looking for the relic items could run the new HW content since it gives so much eso anyways. Would give both (veterans that enjoy old content and new players that need the content) a better overall experience.

The devs could keep everything as is intact by just making Castrum the exception to being able to skip cutscenes when there is at least one new player doing the run for the first time. Pop up a message "cutscene not skippable".

Speed runners will just have to deal. If they don't happen to like it, they can drop. Better that than have the entire experience ruined for the new folks. Of course, there is the possibility of groups kicking the new player(s), but I'm willing to bet that most groups would be fine with waiting. Make them earn that bonus. :)

Also, those cutscenes could stand to be re-edited by the devs. They are way overblown in length.

Would it be in the limits of doable to scale those two instances down to light party size? That way if one person was new it'd already be 25% of the party and if two were new it'd be a half. Also it'd be easier task to find like minded help if you only had to search for light party from fc mates, friends or asking around and or in PF. Since I've mostly seen there just zerg rushes I'm not sure how well the mechanics in them would work on smaller party. Values such as enemy strengths I would assume could be adjusted.

I think scaling it down to 4man dungeons would be the best option.. mechanics aren't that complex, and definitely don't require 8 players. The only things that might need to be adjusted are HP pools, as well as some lore behind it (as operation archon specifically states you're with 8).

I feel the same way about the MSQ experience. I feel for the sprouts, and every time I see one in there I instantly get sad for them. That feeling, more than the tediousness of faceroll content, is what makes me not want to do the MSQ Roulette if I'm not desperate for Poetics. I knew about this problem when I was a sprout, so I created a PF for running it instead (stating I wanted to watch the cutscenes and at least be present for the boss fights) but not all sprouts can be expected to anticipate it.

Unfortunately I can't really think of a solution either... maybe rewrite the prompts around those instances, prompting the sprout to use PF instead of DF? On the player side of things, I feel like the mentoring system could be used by actually mentor-minded people to warn sprouts of the issue and get parties together. Not perfect solutions, but if I'm able to help even one sprout have a cool ending to ARR then I've just made someone's day a little bit better, and that's a nice feeling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Snip

---

It sucks, but I'm gonna be honest, MSQ roulette doesn't need to be fixed. It has its flaws, and they were fixed post that point. There are no dungeouns with cutscenes spread around, except for at the begining and then after you clear. Its a relic, and while it can give new players a bad taste, its not how the rest of the game is. It was a test and it failed horribly, and no other content in the game does CS's like that. Leave it as it is, and forget fixing something so old, when we can work on things in the present that could use fixing.

Sorry for the late reply here, I get distracted too easily. Today's MSQ Roulette made me remember this thread, though.

The set-up: One Praetorium. Two Mentors. Three (!!) First-Time Bonus Sprouts. Three other bystanders (one wincing).

Mentors silently speed-clear everything and pull bosses while Sprouts are locked outside in cutscenes. Sprouts learn to desperately cancel cutscenes, but still get locked out of half the fights even with Sprint up. I almost get locked out while trying to prevent them from getting lost during the Magitek Armor section. Mentors and vets leave immediately at the end; demoralized Sprouts escape before I can finish typing explanations about Unending Journey.

SE, Yoshida, someone, anyone, listen to me: This is a problem. This is really bad. I know you all designed this stuff 3-4 years ago, you're bored with it and want the community to move on. For new players, though, this is new and it's also the big finale to their exciting L1-50 story journey.

Sure, some Sprouts don't care. They just want to level up, play with their friends. They'll watch the scenes later (or not at all). They'd use a mythical 'Jumping Potion' if they could.

But a lot of story-oriented Sprouts have their hearts shattered at this point in their storyline. Okay, a little melodramatic, but seriously — it deflates the experience so much, and it leaves a very bad impression about your world and game. I think it's unprofessional to allow this to continue in this state (but, hypocritically, I still don't have any brilliant solutions, either).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

Leave it as it is, and forget fixing something so old, when we can work on things in the present that could use fixing.

---

I understand the philosophy you're coming from here, but I think MSQ Roulette is a special case due to how it both completely gates and heavily-impacts the New Player experience.

I still regularly see posts on the Subreddit from frustrated, confused, or angry Sprouts that had their finale 'ruined', or can't figure out how to view the cutscene they were forced to skip, etc. For a game that's both socially and story-driven, and relies on an influx of new and motivated players to support it, I think this is a real issue.

If we were talking about anything else 2.x / ARR that was purely side content (like 'How do we improve Wanderer's Palace?'), then I would generally agree with the philosophy 'Let's leave this alone, and focus on more current issues'.

This problem will exist as long as you tie the main story to content unlock. Far too much of the game is gated behind having to complete story quests and it is a massive burden for new players to have to complete what is now around 400 story quests just so they can gain access to end game raids. If you were a long time player, then it is not much of a problem, but new players encounter numerous different problems. The inability to find a dungeon queue even through duty finder is a big problem. I remember one instance where I had to wait nearly 40 minutes just to get one of the trials to pop as a DPS only to end with it failing and having to wait again. This is a terrible experience for new players.

I think a solution is to eliminate the two level 50 stages and divide them up in order to split up the cutscenes as well. Have them be set up as Trials instead of dungeons and combine the Main Scenario roulette with the trials. Castrum should have part 1 up to The Black Eft. From there, the second part goes up to the defeat of the Magitek Colossus and have the third part just fighting the two phases of Livia.

The same thing goes for the Praetorium. Turn it into a trial with three parts. Part 1 is to beat the Magitek Colossus. Part 2 is to board the Magitek armor and end with the defeat of Gaius. Part 3 should be the fight with the Ultima Weapon. Part 4 should be just the Lahabrea fight.

Why MSQ Roulette does more harm than good? I disagree. But I don't object if you said those mentors were disqualified.


In 2.0, no roulette no PF, I queued over 4hours for each MSQ, I was queueing as a healer which had very much faster queue than a DPS at that time.

MSQ fixed this issue. Long queue time kill the new players, they will tell others this game just bad due to dead contents.
For players not very nice or not nice, everyone should have seen more than enough before they reached Lv50 ^^;

Quote:

---

I think MSQ Roulette does more harm than good, but how could it be improved?

---

Set the ilvl sync at i90, and not just "Level 50". Because at level 50, you can carry gear as high as i130, which doesn't help matters any. But at ilvl 90, you can still clear content fairly quick (they're centered around i45 gear levels I think), but not so much that it can be cleared with 1-2 guys with everyone else just there for moral support. Everyone would have to contribute.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nicobo

Why MSQ Roulette does more harm than good? I disagree.

---

I understand what you mean, which is why in my OP I did argue that simply removing the Roulette would be a step backwards.

It's not the existence of the Roulette I see as harmful (we need incentives to keep older content flowing for newer players), but something about the implementation is wrong given how much trauma it causes a lot of the Sprouts that I see get dragged through the two dungeons by their hair.

I can't comment on everyone's pre-L50 experiences, but both while I was leveling, and when I do Leveling Roulette each day, I don't witness this sort of issue in pre-L50 MSQ dungeons (Sastasha, Tam-Tara, Copperbell, Ifrit, Toto-Rak, Haukke, Brayflox, Titan, Stone Vigil, Garuda). That's why the two MSQ dungeons were such a jarring experience for me (and many other Sprouts, from what I witness semi-daily).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blanchimont

I remember one instance where I had to wait nearly 40 minutes just to get one of the trials to pop as a DPS only to end with it failing and having to wait again. This is a terrible experience for new players.

---

I have to admit ignorance about these specific issues (queue times), due to maining and leveling as a Tank job.

Again though, maybe I was lucky, or it's just my datacenter, or...? But despite being a newbie Tank asking for fight instructions and watching cutscenes, in L15-49 content I wasn't rushed or harassed at all. Not even once. Then the MSQ reached L50 and — ouch.

I had a similar experience recently on my first time through these dungeons... But it was nothing compared to the nightmare 100 quest chain that followed.

I would think making the main quests a 4 man instead of 8 man may solve the issue. With only 4, missing one person would potentially make progression harder. As a compensation could up the reward when completing for those who have joined for Exp/Token/cash. Balancing could take a little time. I don't know priority wise, some say its just old content. But as #14 stated, for new players its new and a very important content.

Oh my...this thread has reopened some old wounds lol. I remembered my first time there, about almost two months ago on my SMN. I tried watching the cutscenes but after the first two-to which I noticed I was left behind-that I decided to skip the cutscenes. I remember this second to last cutscene I tried to watch because I was on my lonesome and apparently, I was holding back some people because the boss fight would not start without me getting to that boss zone.

Suffice to say, I think SE needs to revisit this. Maybe create a special 1-player mode for first timers that is heavily nerfed and provides no exp or gear. This would allow newbies to enjoy the story without hindering anyone. Then, after its cleared once, they can participate in regular MSQ roulette with a no cutscene feature.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RikiaReborn

I would think making the main quests a 4 man instead of 8 man may solve the issue. With only 4, missing one person would potentially make progression harder. As a compensation could up the reward when completing for those who have joined for Exp/Token/cash. Balancing could take a little time. I don't know priority wise, some say its just old content. But as #14 stated, for new players its new and a very important content.

---

This would also allow Meridianum and Praetorium to just go into Level 50 Roulette like the later 2.x MSQ dungeons, obviating the need for MSQ Roulette completely.

I think this is actually a promising idea. The fights can already be completed with only 4 players, I don't think it even requires re-tuning (and definitely not a revamp of the whole instance, or anything close).

And it would reduce the mob mentality that 8 players seems to trigger.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

I have to admit ignorance about these specific issues (queue times), due to maining and leveling as a Tank job.

Again though, maybe I was lucky, or it's just my datacenter, or...? But despite being a newbie Tank asking for fight instructions and watching cutscenes, in L15-49 content I wasn't rushed or harassed at all. Not even once. Then the MSQ reached L50 and — ouch.

---

Leveling as a tank makes it far easier. I did levels 52 to 60 on my Paladin about two weeks ago. Queue times were extremely short and you could almost always find a party for everything. It is also much easier to dictate the pace of the fight as well since others have to position around you, the tank. This is not the case for DPS classes. They have extremely long queues. Whatever your tank class has to queue for, expect a DPS class to have to queue for at least 5 times longer. I do occasionally find a few people that have no idea what they are doing and leading to wipes, but it isn't as bad as pre-expansion.