RIP MCH

Wow that bard buff.Now people who main MCH should think building a Bard.MCH its already the job that people play the less and now no one will want a mch.But to my firend MCH we will have a flashy wildfire.

Maybe MCH buff in 3.4?

Is that all you think about?

Not

"Oh, cool. My sister DPS isn't so underpowered."

?

I welcome my fellow melee DPS buffs.

Maybe just take of the rng of the job will be a good stard

People still want mch due to burst and melee boost.

i hope because i main it with my 230 relic dont want a start a new one no time for that.

Machinist will get buffed at some point probably if they notice that its too underpowered. Bard really really needed the changes.

Wait...what?

BRD are being turned away from groups because MCH bring so much more to a raid group than BRD do.

Even after the BRD buffs, MCH are still going to be the better choice for Midas, though the gap is closing a bit.

When I play my MCH vs my BRD on a dummy in the EXACT same ilvl 218 210 eso wpn 1000 crit/700 Det gear, my MCH can do about 100 more dps(1400 vs 1500) according to the SSS calculator....so if anything this just evened the playing field & I am excited to use BRD(& NIN) more in dungeon content

I don't really count these as fixes, Paeon and Ballad still impact the damage and songs still aren't toggled. When that happens I'll start to feel that SE wants to fix the mess they made out of BRD rather then bandaid fix it.

Maybe wait until we actually see 3.3 BRD in action before you start complaining?

Oh jeeze, it's like the time AST got buffs and everyone was saying RIP SCH and WHM.

BRDs were fairing worse than MCHs and they got a buff, is that so wrong?

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

Oh jeeze, it's like the time AST got buffs and everyone was saying RIP SCH and WHM.

BRDs were fairing worse than MCHs and they got a buff, is that so wrong?

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No its not, but for someone who mains BRD since 2.0 to see these buffs put in place but not some of the other things fixed, like Wide Volley being useless still, Bloodletter/RoD being finicky at times with there reset, why aren't songs toggle skills? I'm pretty sure Foes still pulls aggro which is annoying, damage reduction on songs doesn't make a lick of sense, I could see it being a thing with Foes cause it reduces enemy resistance, but regenerating tp and mp shouldn't reduce damage, it's kinda like if invigorate dropped your damage down for the duration of the cooldown, it would be questionable.

There is a lot of work that needs to be done on the class, while these buffs are great, they're not even the tip of the iceberg with BRD issues. Issues that SE created with 3.0 that they're kinda dragging their feet on with fixing.

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Originally Posted by eliost

Wow that bard buff.

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Yeah, 5 potency to dots and bringing songs in line to the dps MCH loses, wow indeed /rollseyes

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Now people who main MCH should think building a Bard.

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At this point weapon is pretty much the only difference anyway, so yeah why not but not because MCH is dead

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MCH its already the job that people play the less and now no one will want a mch.

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you really haven't been paying attention to things lately huh?

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But to my firend MCH we will have a flashy wildfire.

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The only true part of your post. MCH was on par with BRD for dps and better for utility. Something had to be done. 5 potency boost to dots and a couple 10 potency boosts to ogcds is about the lowest boost they could give. Even a 1.5 song cast time doesn't put them on par with MCH in that respect, but it's definitely nice.

I'm not really sure bard needed fixing, but these will probably help with bard being currently less popular to take to raids. Mch definitely seemed more attractive with more burst and quicker utility(instant cast turret promotion and hypercharge, versus cast time songs). Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but decreasing the damage penalty for ballad brings it more in line with the mch's turret dps loss when they change it do support mode?

Jet, I'm not sure if you meant it figuratively or like actually but Foe's never reduced the bard's damage (except for the cast time).

I don't think anyone that plays MCH is going to be switching though. Mch still likely is more desirable even so for raids. Mch might want to try out the changes though if they were made to be a mch if they didn't want to be. I'm fairly sure most people that play that role prefer to be mch overall though.

I have my MCH and BRD both 60. And I don't know why MCH is more fitting on me than BRD. IMO the BRD's WM is kinda annoying compared with MCH's GB that you can burst anything with GB on.

Move along, nothing to see here.

I'll continue being a MCH fun-haver.

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Originally Posted by Cherie

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but decreasing the damage penalty for ballad brings it more in line with the mch's turret dps loss when they change it do support mode?

Jet, I'm not sure if you meant it figuratively or like actually but Foe's never reduced the bard's damage (except for the cast time).

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But that's the thing, we already do low damage, so why decrease it further? Why not take off the damage reduction on both classes. When an AST uses a card the AST isn't negatively impacted by the card, imagine if when the AST used a card it lost X% of healing potency It wouldn't make sense would it? So, why does MCH and BRD lose damage for using their buffs? It's been a question since 2.0. Even with it knocked down to 10% that means that if I have to play either Ballad or Paeon, with Wanderers on I'm getting 20% instead of 30%.

Which is why I said it's always been odd that Ballad and Paeon reduce damage since they don't lower enemy resistance, there is no real trade off for them to lower the attack of the class with those two songs. Unlike with Foe you knock down a mob down by 10% but you don't lose anything? A buff that weakens enemies doesn't weaken me, but a regenerating song does?

All the songs do in this regard is debuff Wanderers damage increase, which SE implemented to increase the BRDS damage. Less damage on a buff that took away our mobility and auto attack? The class is in a constant state of gimping until they remove the damage reduction as a whole and rework BRD to work around WM rather force it luke it is now.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

When an AST uses a card the AST isn't negatively impacted by the card, imagine if when the AST used a card it lost X% of healing potemcy It wouldn't make sense would it? So, why does MCH and BRD lose damage for using their buffs?

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Because AST's cards are unreliable. They are gated behind RNG, with only two tools to really influence it (Redraw and Spread). There is no guarantee that ASTs will draw a Balance/Arrow/Spear at the DPS push time, or an Ewer/Spire if a DPS goes down, or a Bole for damage heavy phases. BRDs and MCHs have absolute control of when to use their support toolkit, not to mention it is AoE by default.

It's called balancing.

Wait, people still play Machinist? Seems like the job was dead in the water from the start to me. I can count the number of people I see with the job on one hand, and having played it to 50 myself it's not hard to see why.

The entire job revolves around RNG. You get a short burst of activity whenever Reload is up, and then it dies down to a trickle for the next 45 seconds. Sometimes you get lucky and receive a decent number of procs, and other times you don't get any and are reduced to spamming Split Shot (which, by the by, has lower potency than Bard's Heavy Shot). It's a bit of a mess of a job, if we're completely honest with each other.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Wait, people still play Machinist? Seems like the job was dead in the water from the start to me. I can count the number of people I see with the job on one hand, and having played it to 50 myself it's not hard to see why.

The entire job revolves around RNG. You get a short burst of activity whenever Reload is up, and then it dies down to a trickle for the next 45 seconds. Sometimes you get lucky and receive a decent number of procs, and other times you don't get any and are reduced to spamming Split Shot (which, by the by, has lower potency than Bard's Heavy Shot). It's a bit of a mess of a job, if we're completely honest with each other.

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While I agree with RNG on main part of skill rotation being very annoying and would rather SE remove the RNG procs on main combo from ammo followed by making main combo (split, slug and clean) stable and guaranteed proc always like MNK (which I also play) where the combo is guaranteed to proc one after the other...ammo being 'special ammo' which is buff related like a manually activated and timer related greased lightning buff with cool down period on the skill rather than 'proc' related. I do still play MCH and lots of other people do too on our server. On the topic of the OP, I still play BRD also on my other character but these changes might not make me play BRD more so than MCH. It's too early to know the scale of impact on the BRD changes but most of them seem minor. I was surprised MCH got no love or changes in this patch though I admit...maybe in 4.0.

I feel one of MCH's main issues is the RNG nature of its main combo. Remove that and make it so that reload lets you use special effects tied to the weaponskills.

Or remove Reload/Quick Reload entirely, remove the procs from the main combo, and put in either special ammo or special weapon skills.

IF they did change it so MCH got 100% procs....it would just put BRD even further behind. Actually it might put MCH avg dps on par with Ninja if it isn't already.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

IF they did change it so MCH got 100% procs....it would just put BRD even further behind. Actually it might put MCH avg dps on par with Ninja if it isn't already.

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They can alter potency's if had too large an impact on DPS when changing the main combo from RNG proc to always guaranteed follow on skill proc, changing ammo to buff related (like a manually activated greased lightning with buff timer and skill GCD instead of ammo being proc related). The change mentioned is a gameplay mechanics issue not a DPS output one, potency's can be used to balance it out so that is not a big issue but RNG on the main combo procs should be removed completely and instead of ammo being proc related it should be 'special' ammo aka either personal buff/target debuff related.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

Maybe wait until we actually see 3.3 BRD in action before you start complaining?

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its always the case.. remember when they announced vit changes for tanks?? the rage posts and complaints in forums b4 the patch hit omg lmao

does it matter everyone play what they like , not like everyone is getting the full potential out of those buffs

maybe, but MCH are finally getting to hide their gauss barrel so that may balance it out...

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Originally Posted by eliost

Wow that bard buff.Now people who main MCH should think building a Bard.MCH its already the job that people play the less and now no one will want a mch.But to my firend MCH we will have a flashy wildfire.

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That's weird because MCH is really powerful compared to BRD : more or less same dps (if the BRD is extremely good) and gives +5% melee damages.
I welcome this BRD buff.

quick reload 15s cd , u can change your rng....when movement is needed , reload on 60s cd + natural procs ...and can debuff both 10% physical and magical w/o using MP , and save that mp for mp/tp regen , it was 5% until 3.2 and was buffed.

brd cast everything , only thing not casted is straight shot! procs , and use MP for debuff and tp/mp regen. BV was 300s cd , reducing the CD was needed badly....and the dmg boost is because brd suffers more than mch when movement and disconnects

brds changes are nice (not in the right direction imo...but i will take any bone tossed brd way :P)

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Wait, people still play Machinist? Seems like the job was dead in the water from the start to me. I can count the number of people I see with the job on one hand, and having played it to 50 myself it's not hard to see why.

The entire job revolves around RNG. You get a short burst of activity whenever Reload is up, and then it dies down to a trickle for the next 45 seconds. Sometimes you get lucky and receive a decent number of procs, and other times you don't get any and are reduced to spamming Split Shot (which, by the by, has lower potency than Bard's Heavy Shot). It's a bit of a mess of a job, if we're completely honest with each other.

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I don't know if you're trolling or not.

Ah the "good ol' RIP this or that" posts they never get old... In all honesty most people won't even see a difference between now and the 3.3 bard as most player can't really exploit those changes in any meaningful way so despite your "doom and gloom" machinist won't become persona non grata just because of some buff bards have gotten at worst bard will become the "flavor of the month" class and that will be all.

I don't even get this post, this individual says "RIP MCH" and then proceeds to say "I am intending to go MCH main soon and I hear it's fun!" Like, what do you think you are achieving by naming your threat something entirely different than what you're saying? It feels like this individual is just sheep, swaying wherever the "majority" is. On top of that, they're not even right on 90% of what they're saying. BRD and MCH are equally as important depending on how you want to work around your party composition, though in all honesty, MCH would be the most useful as it would buff not only its own damage but the damage of the tanks, any melee DPS and its own pet. So yeah, what the hell is this post?

I hopped between BRD and NIN for a good long time. To me, these 3.3 changes for BRD are basically just like putting a band-aid over the real problem. Which is Wanderer's Minuet. It doesn't quite fit with BRD's core playstyle, and I feel that's part of the problem they were having with DPS output. Increasing potentcies should probably help but it was the easy way out for SE in my opinion.

These days I main MCH and thoroughly enjoy it. So, that's where I'll be.

Eh? MCH was/is more desired in the current raid cycle. Not sure why you have such big issues with them bringing BRD up to scruff.

In saying that though, I don't think a buff to their DoT's is the answer, as BRD is a stronger multi-target class than MCH. I personally believe BRD needs playstyle adjustments more than the damage buffs they are giving it. Fixing the awkward "tack on" WM mechanic would be the first step. MCH doesn't suffer as much as their procs are bound to GCDs, whereas BRD's are oGCD's. It just makes BRD a clunkier class to play as you are trying to violently mash your procs between casts.

Remove the rng from machinist and it'll become a boring 123 rotation with ogcd.
The rng in mch is nice, it makes it fresh, however yes the rng is a little too low and feels more like 20% than 50%, but no they don't need to remove the rng, it's part of what makes it different from the other jobs.

This is how MMO's are, be happy for bards. Play what you find is the most fun.

The goal was to bring bards alongside to machinist i'm sure. They had to have done some controlled testing.

Tbh our bard these days plays mch and honestly I see no diff.

When he switches to mch he does more dps but, I do less due to no foe requiem. When he switches to bard I do more dps but he does less.
In the end its the same. (mch has advantage on a melee party at the moment).

Either way even with the way these classes are at the moment theyr'e still good enough to do any ingame content.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Wait, people still play Machinist? Seems like the job was dead in the water from the start to me. I can count the number of people I see with the job on one hand, and having played it to 50 myself it's not hard to see why.

The entire job revolves around RNG. You get a short burst of activity whenever Reload is up, and then it dies down to a trickle for the next 45 seconds. Sometimes you get lucky and receive a decent number of procs, and other times you don't get any and are reduced to spamming Split Shot (which, by the by, has lower potency than Bard's Heavy Shot). It's a bit of a mess of a job, if we're completely honest with each other.

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You don't seem to know what you're talking about, Machinists perform really well in the current fights. They even outDPS most of the other jobs on some raid encounters. The gap between MCH and BRD in actual encounters is really large at the moment.

nin got some aoe buffs, rip blm, see how stupid threads like these are?

Echoing what people are saying here, I have both classes leveled to 60 and all these buffs do is essentially rocket BRD over in striking dummy fights. Bard's real issue is the fact that they're a DoT heavy class with Wanderer's Minuet clashing with Bloodletter procs, which is something these buffs aren't addressing (especially in relation to this current raid tier, where MCH performance is on a whole other level due to how the fights are designed).

But sure, even before the buffs, people keep bringing up that BRD and MCH damage isn't that wide at all when testing with striking dummies. But those are striking dummies. If the devs design content to be harder than glorified striking dummies and it causes one class' performance to suffer tremendously, is it a problem with the fight or is it a problem with the class design?

That said, I expect the devs do have a WM rework in mind for 4.0, they just don't want to do it now because they need more data before they do something that might make things WORSE. And they can't get data when the vast majority of raid BRDs are suddenly performing a mass exodus to MCH, which is exactly why these buffs are happening.