Low level tank enmity drop?

Got my GLA from 15 to 23 through dungeons and I've noticed that every now and then there will be a DPS who can easily out-threat me on the pull, practically all the time.

I'm wearing the full beginner tank set with the rare dungeon helm and belt, ethereal sword, rare shield, and the max-level accessories I can find at this level. Stat points invested in VIT. Basically I should be at maximum gear for this level. But I've ran into DPS who can easily, easily out-threat me at the start of a pull even on a mob that I pulled with Shield Lob.

For example with the altars in Tam-tara, I could open up on the altar boss with Fight or Flight and a comboed Savage Blade, but the DPS in question will gradually catch up to me, and by the time the boss is at 15% or so, the DPS would tanking the boss and that would be that.

(Not frequently, but every now or then there will be this one DPS that keeps doing it.)

Anyone notice the same? Could it the rebalancing of STR and VIT for tanks while gear was never adapted (at this level there are now no "tanking" accessories, only STR accessories) causing a significant drop in tank enmity at low levels?

I remember back in 2.x I would only have a problem tanking lower levels when my gear was outdated and the DPS are level syncced. But now I feel really helpless when I run into such a strong DPS.

I am even starting to wish that level syncced DPS/Healers automatically get a -20% on enmity generated or something, just to help out the tank...

There's always one low level dungeon that'll cause you grief because of how the abilities unlock.

Marauders will have trouble in the 20s because Butcher's Block will unlock far later than Rage of Halone, whereas Paladins will struggle in the 30s range because of their lack of shield oath.

I wouldn't be against a buff to help out levelling tanks.

Use more Flash. It generates more enmity per GCD than Fast>Savage.

I adapted to that with my first ability to use: Flash.
Then combo -> Flash -> Repeat

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Originally Posted by Launched

Use more Flash. It generates more enmity per GCD than Fast>Savage.

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Does it? Is there a source on this info? I've always wondered exactly how much enmity it generates. In 2.x it was definitely worse than the combo, and I tested it in one Sastasha party with a Fire 2 spamming BLM and a DRG. Flash spamming could not catch up to the DRG's enmity...I'll try it some more. :(

Many low-level tanks have noticed exactly the same. It is not something new from the STR/VIT rebalancing - even though that change may have made it worse.
Most of the time it is not all that hard for the tank to keep aggro if they know how to play their class, but occasionally there is a high-level DPS with great gear who goes all-out and will pull aggro off any low-level tanks.
That is irritating for the tank. Good news is that any DPS capable of doing that is also perfectly capable of surviving the fight against the mob he/she pulled.

Until you get your tank stance, a determined DPS that knows what he's doing can easily out-enmity you. There's not much you can do about it, even spamming flash (not to say you shouldn't be).
Most people also realize that low level tanking, especially Gladiators, is not an easy time. Some don't, and some simply don't care, but thankfully most DPS don't actually know what they're doing! So the times you'll have trouble will not be often.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Does it? Is there a source on this info? I've always wondered exactly how much enmity it generates. In 2.x it was definitely worse than the combo, and I tested it in one Sastasha party with a Fire 2 spamming BLM and a DRG. Flash spamming could not catch up to the DRG's enmity...I'll try it some more. :(

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Flash is 600 potency. Fast Blade is 150. Savage is 200*3.5=700. Fast+Savage is 850 vs 1200 from Flash*2. Even back in 2.0, Flash was 500 so it was still better.

Edit: Flash isn't buffed by Fight or Flight because it does no damage. When FoF is up, Fast+Savage is 1105 potency, only slightly lower than Flash*2.

You don't have to worry about losing aggro to dps if you have up to date gear. There's nothing we tanks can do if we are out gear by dps except spamming flash, unleash, or overpowered and pray that we don't lose aggro from the remaining mobs.

When I am a dps and out gear a tank, all I'll tell the tank to keep the other mobs aggro, if I happen to rip aggro from him/her I'll tank it. As long as the tank keeps mobs away from healer which is the most important part.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Until you get your tank stance, a determined DPS that knows what he's doing can easily out-enmity you. There's not much you can do about it, even spamming flash (not to say you shouldn't be).

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This is not true. If your gear is current and you Flash enough, no DD can generate enough enmity to take something off you before Shield Oath.

Enmity potency per GCD values for each job:

• BLM - Fire III is 432(576 with FoeReq and Raging Strikes); Thundercloud II is 610 but only if it ticks for the full duration.
• SMN - The only hard hitting action is a triple Fester, 900(1200), but this value is attenuated by the three GCD setup time during which the strongest GCD is Bio II at 350(467).
• MCH - Lead Shot is 490(670ish buffed) if it ticks the full 30 seconds. Clean Shot, adjusted for Rapid Fire and Reassemble, is still only around 690 with buffs, and only with a proc.
• BRD - Straighter Shot + Misery's End + Bloodletter is 759 buffed, and at that point the mob is dead.
• NIN - Aeolian Edge is 384 with venom, and Raiton is 400ish with FoeReq.
• MNK - Demolish is 609 with GL2, TwinSnakes, BloodForBlood, if it ticks for the full duration.
• DRG - Phlebotomize is 500 with Disembowel and BloodForBlood; 750ish with Life Surge.

• WHM - If a WHM casts literally nothing but Medica, it's 600 enmity potency per GCD (300/target * 4 targets * 0.5 healing enmity modifier).
• SCH - Succor is 300 potency per cast
• AST - Helios is 600 enmity potency per cast; throw in an Essential Dignity for another 200-500.

In short, yes, some jobs have actions that let them do more than 600/gcd for one or two GCDs; however these enmity spikes are easily handled by the enmity the flashing GLA has accumulated from the rest of the time when those jobs can't do those one-off actions.

By the time you switch to Riot Blade to restore your MP, you should have such a big lead that nobody goes orange until a target is about to die.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

I'm wearing the full beginner tank set with the rare dungeon helm and belt, ethereal sword, rare shield, and the max-level accessories I can find at this level. Stat points invested in VIT. Basically I should be at maximum gear for this level. But I've ran into DPS who can easily, easily out-threat me at the start of a pull even on a mob that I pulled with Shield Lob.

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Please note that the Brand New gear (save for the Ring) and Plundered gear is ilevel 17. Sastasha syncs people down to level 18 and i18, Tamtara level 19/i19, Copperbell Mines level 20/i20 and Halatali down to level 23/i23. Also all post-50 gear has 2 secondary stats so pretty much anyone synced will have far more secondaries than even the best equipped newbie.

Either late in 2.5 or during HW levelsyncing was also changed. Gear is no longer synced to NQ stats.

Yeah, as a not-so-great-tank myself I've found that flash helps a lot more.

Occasionally I lose enmity but if I'm paying enough attention and see I'm struggling I spam flash :x

For some reason I seem to have trouble keeping enmity with Marauder though

I see!

Thanks for all the replies! I didn't know about the new syncing and completely forgot about the different syncing levels. Will switch to a Flash spam in future if I get the same situation again. :D

It might help to mark your targets. Or at least the first one. Focus your enmity combo on the first enemy and flash twice between each combo. The DPS might be hot on your tail, but by the time the first enemy is down, you should have enough enmity built up on the others to not have to worry about losing it. This worked for me on my last character when I mained a PLD.

When I was first leveling BRD I was pulling aggro like it was my job. I was getting super lucky with crits and OGC. The PLD was getting super flustered and apologizing. I told him to relax and let me tank. I was wearing my lvl 60 DRK title and told him I've tanked this dungeon a million times before xD

The answer to your question is yes, low level tanks received a significant enmity nerf in the last patch when the developers decided to split AP across VIT and STR. This has been discussed at length in several threads.

By all rights the developers should rollback the changes.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

The answer to your question is yes, low level tanks received a significant enmity nerf in the last patch when the developers decided to split AP across VIT and STR. This has been discussed at length in several threads.

By all rights the developers should rollback the changes.

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Please no. Paladin should get their enmity modifier at level 30, not 40. And that's about it.

GLA in particular is very rough early on. I took mine from 22 (where it's been for two years) to 34 last week to get Awareness for my WAR.

I'd heard GLA/PLD wasn't very fun until 40, but damn - the Flash spam is real. Target marking became a lot more important between Toto-rak and Brayflox because prolonged AoE spams and people attacking different mobs was seriously hard to handle.

I'd make sure to use fight or flight on the bosses and flash as needed on the packs. If you are in a situation with "that dps," try to target what they are targeting to keep hate. And if you still can't pull off of him/her, it's probably not a big deal as they will probably survive anyways in a low level dungeon. Though they really should give the tank stances in the level 10 class quests to make it easier on the newer players since low level tanking without the gear is too much for a beginner.

There is gear discrepancy all along when leveling between people who are on a natural level for dungeon with best gear they can have, vs down synced players. I seem to recall toto rak was especially bad with this. The first level it can be run is one or two levels before tanks get next gear tier, so they are already running 2-3 level lower gear even if they are wearing the maximum gear they can at the time. Anyone who's down synced to the dungeon is synced to the maximum level of it, taking them about 3-4 levels higher the tank and possibly up to 7 level difference in iLvl, even if the tank has highest gear available for them at the time.

Reading all your replies and I appreciate all the useful tips!

I don't agree with the rollback idea though. I find the current design of having tanks always prefer VIT over STR to be a much more consistent design. It would have been great if they did something to help out the lower level enmity generation, though. Like upping the tanking weapon damages by 1 for level 1-30 weapons or something. Or build a "level sync" buff for the tanks, each synced DPS in the party will give an unsyncced tank a 5% boost to enmity generated. This could also find application in high level content, too, I guess?

Well I am satisfy with current tanks stat. For enmity stuff, just low level GLA or PLD that needs our attention on enemies enmity because Flash doesn't do any damage compared to WAR's Overpowered and DRK's Unleash.

I notice this once in a while but from my perspective, it's when one of the DPS wants to be a hero and grab his own mob, ignoring the one they should be focusing on.

There will always be occasional DPS that are synced down that will be able to not only pull aggro, but also tank it just as well. As a lifelong tank this frustrates me when people intentionally do this, but sometimes it is nearly unavoidable. When you are level 15 as a new tank in junk gear trying to hold aggro off a synced level 70 in raid gear, they would have to pretty much just auto attack to not pull at times.

In these cases I usually just tell them I cannot hold threat off them and that the healer will need to watch their health. As long as they are not jerks about it, party on!