Paladin and Dark Knight

just wondering if i could get some peoples opinions on what class they enjoyed more
i have got to a stage were i dont have time to level many classes in this game and have to decide which tank to make my main so i can get through the content
im finding that im not particularly drawn to one over the other at the moment

Well to be honest, I prefer them both. DRK is when I want to have an easy time maintaining aggro from groups of mobs, while PLD for when I want a little challenge and more defensive. I use DRK when I what I'm expecting and PLD for trailblazing on new contents.

Just play a real tank, and become a warrior!! (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist..):p

Well the only reason warrior wasnt on the list if my DRK is lvl 53 and Pally lvl 52 while my warrior is 32 so that would be a longer grind

Do you want to mash 10 buttons a second? If that sounds fun, go with dark knight. Want a slower playing tank that feels more like a steel wall? Choose Paladin. Personally I prefer Pally due to the fact dark knight feels excessively fragile, due to their overall weaker cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

Just play a real tank, and become a warrior!! (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist..):p

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WAR ROE fist!!!

Flip a coin if you don't have a preference. All the tanks are viable, it really depends on what you want out of your tank in terms of playstyle. PLD is simple and straight forward (helpful for leading raid groups), DRK is a million off GCDs so very busy and active, WAR is slow like PLD but with a high skill ceiling. So whichever of those you find most appealing. You can also try looking up PLD/DRK stuff on YT and see which one you feel like you'd be more interested in.

PALADIN : Great defense, no problem to manage PT (like the MRD) or MP (like the DRK), only one rotation
DRK : Technical, many CD, classy with his greatsword.

I prefer DRK but i play both...

It really comes down to what you want out of the tank you play. I've played both rather extensively at 60, and I personally prefer Paladin.

Paladin:
> Simple, rigid rotation without much flexibility. [GB>RA>RA]
> Very few off-gcd attacks which weave in easily to the rotation.
> Powerful defensive toolkit makes you a rather substantial defensive tank.
> Easy stance dancing - your Mana is essentially worthless, so changing stance is completely free.
> Most powerful offensive cooldown in the game in Fight or Flight.
> Slow gameplay allows you to take stock of the field and pay attention to things other than your hotbars.
> Hallowed Ground needs no explanation.


Dark Knight
> Simple, easy-to-execute rotation with a few fun quirks to it. [S>SS Combo x4]
> Very large amount of off-gcd attacks that can be difficult (yet fun!) to weave efficiently into the rotation.
> Moderately powerful defensive toolkit affords nice mitigation, but not really comparable with Paladin aside from magic damage.
> Stance dancing is costly. Grit costs 75% of one Dark Arts to turn on, making it a significant cost in terms of your dps output.
> The most fluid and dynamic cooldown in the game in Dark Arts - tricky to master, but satisfying when done well.
> Fast-paced gameplay allows you to play a tank and never feel bored because of how static it is.
> Living Dead will more often than not cause you to die in DF if it actually procs, because 90% of DF healers aren't gonna look for that shit or act on it.

I honestly like playing Drk most because of it's high skill ceiling it just has so many more fun options than Pld, and as stated above it's more busy with high pay offs if played really well and has the highest main tank dmg currently. Warrior is the big ol beef wagon that has the highest OT DPS as well as a DPS stance with the highest potency skill in the game, Fell Cleave 500 potency. I find that Pld is pretty straightforward and is generally the tank that people play when they first want to tank that doesn't punish the player as much as Drk or War.

Drk and war are more complex and require more finesse to pull off, as for pld you don't have to but your supportive spells to use in tandem with your healers can be pretty tricky. Play what you want to play only you yourself know what you prefer all tanks are similar but have different pay offs to how you play them.

Dark Knight, feels like there's more stuff to do with it, Paladin which was my first Tank class was pretty boring I do use it when I want to use my Lightning glamour for Blazefire saber but that has nothing to do with Paladin, lol, I digress. I will say though, 50-60 with Dark Knight was painful and almost put me off from playing, had great difficulty with it.

Paladin is boring and Dark Knight is not. On the same token PLD has skills that synergize with each other. Dark Knight skills actively conflict with each other and some skills are reliant on party coordination. And not the DRK.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Paladin is boring and Dark Knight is not.

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This is incredibly subjective and flat out untrue for some players. Paladin and Dark Knight have different playstyles that appeal to different types of players. Some people have fun playing Paladin and doing good DPS while also being an unmovable wall. Some people do not enjoy the hectic nature of playing Dark Knight. I run into more DRKs in DF who just flat out do not use any Mana for any reason ever than I encounter Dark Knights who actually play properly. Maybe 1 in 20 will actually play DRK with any sort of skill - if you're gonna ignore the main mechanic of Dark Knight, you might as well play Paladin, where you can maintain optimal DPS without worrying about those sort of things.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

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I mean you're just generalizing Drks here are there bad Drk tanks? Yes. Are there bad War tanks? Yes. Are there bad Pld tanks? Yes. Saying that Drk is the defacto "Derp Knight" of the tanks is quite a bold statement. I can't tell you how many Wars I ran into that rushed in with Deliverance and couldn't keep hate and blamed the DPS. Or what about those Plds that Circle of Scorn once and never use Flash? Tank is the exclusive role in DF where it's easy to point fingers at as you're the one maintaining the pace of the dungeon, combined with the DPS and healer DPS, but in reality the tank moves and pulls how they please.

I mean hell i've had DPS that just don't pull their weight should I assume all Drgs can't AoE? That Blms are just ice mages 100% of the time? No that's all untrue for some players I agree with you there are bad tanks out there but please don't lump us who enjoy and maximizing our role as Drks with those other bad Drks.

In terms of gameplay PLD is the most fundamentally simple. There's very little to min/max, it's pretty straightforward, you can pick up PLD and probably be at the top of your game in a week or so of practice. But being simple doesn't necessarily mean bad or boring. As an example, when I was leading my static by calling out all the mechanics, calling out Mantra timings, being generally aware of what everyone was doing and needed to do, while also maximizing my effectiveness as a WAR... that was pretty rough. Had I been a PLD in the same situation I feel like I would've been significantly less stressed and been able to more accurately call things out without any sort of panic. So that's why I said in my initial post that PLD is good for raid leading, you have to worry significantly less about what you're doing and can focus on what's going on around you to help everyone out.

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Originally Posted by Awful

I mean you're just generalizing Drks here are there bad Drk tanks?

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To be fair, I lost my train of thought halfway through that post and just rambled for the second half of it.

The point I was making is:
"If you are going to pick up Dark Knight and then play it like a Paladin (ie. Ignore the base mechanics of the Job as many DF'ers like to do), you'll be hot garbage. If you instead pick up Paladin and play similarly (ie. press buttons and use combos), you'll be respectable in your role."

That doesn't make one better or worse than the other. It was mainly because the whole notion that "PLD is boring other tanks are fun" needs to die. It's inaccurate rubbish spread by people who believe "active dps" = "enjoyable game design" without thinking of multiple viewpoints. When someone is asking "which tank should I play?" you shouldn't respond by saying "PLD is boring, DRK is fun, HOWEVER..." you should posit facts about each Job gleaned from your personal experience playing them and then let the OP or the reader decide which one they prefer after reading said logical discussion of the perceived pros and cons of a list.

Coloring the argument out the jump by applying a negative adjective to one and a positive to another is an improper way to attempt at giving an unbiased opinion of two different Jobs.

PLD is a bit boring compared to DRK, DRK skills are just more flashyand enjoyable to me. Also the DRK storyline from 50 to 60 is my favorite class storyline that I've played.

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Originally Posted by Cooper588

Well the only reason warrior wasnt on the list if my DRK is lvl 53 and Pally lvl 52 while my warrior is 32 so that would be a longer grind

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I would recommend that you gain one more level on DRK and get the associated job skill. If you're mainly looking for something to explore the story with, let's just say that it makes a certain one-on-one fight significantly more epic.

There were two great moments in the class unveiling of DRK, during the lead-in to Heavensward. One was when it was revealed to be a tank, at Fanfest London. The second was during the Job Actions video, where they revealed that it had a gap closer. I mained PLD until 2.2, followed by WAR until 2.5. When I saw this, I hung up my axe and never looked back.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

When someone is asking "which tank should I play?" you shouldn't respond by saying "PLD is boring, DRK is fun, HOWEVER..." you should posit facts about each Job gleaned from your personal experience playing them and then let the OP or the reader decide which one they prefer after reading said logical discussion of the perceived pros and cons of a list.

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This stood out to me as I was giving my experiences in DF, I did go off topic and talked about other classes but i'll stick to Drk, and pld. They both bring their own play styles and you're right saying if you play a Drk like a Paladin you'll be garbage. Just in my own experience I don't hate or discredit pld it's a good class and easier to jump into as you have to worry about less and can focus on other things around you while supporting the raid group (Divine Veil + Conva with a spread Adlo for group wide dmg or Covering the MT when need be). But for me as a tank main who raids Midas Savage weekly, I love being a drk for a lot of the knock backs in Midas Savage or getting to the boss in A5S when you have to get behind him. It's so satisfying to be able to do that in a split second and timing it with the knock backs so you don't even get knocked back i'm so used to it that when I go on my pld for A5S/A6S for weekly clears I have tempered will which is nice but has such a long CD. Having mobility as a tank is something I really enjoy and it helps me become a better tank by being in those positions or help the group when an add is loose or to be where the boss is gonna be next.

Also sorry about being negative/condescending I wrote this late the other night lol kinda rambled on and gave no tips or anything really so you got me on that one tried to make this post more constructive compared to the old one where I said "pld was boring" because it isn't people just have the mentality because of the active DPS meta that pld isn't desirable one of my co-tanks is a pld and he enjoys doing Midas with me every week when he can.

I juggle both PLD and DRK. I like the safety of PLD (lots of defensive CDs) but I like the aggressiveness (Dark Arts combos) and survival (MP and HP restoration) of DRK. While I'm still leaning more in favor of PLD, I like to do DRK on easier content (Normal Raids) and PLD on harder content (Savage Raids).

When people ask me to come tank for them, I generally go PLD until I get a feel of the group. If it's a quick-kill group, I swap to DRK (plus I almost have DRK mount).

to OP, do whatever you feel like doing, both tanking jobs are viable. It's really not a day and night situation until you reach A8S (and even then, if you and your team are very competent, you don't ever need int down to survive). You don't really need Delirium/Dragon Kick for int down in A7S if your team goes for full VIT right side for progression/clear. my 2cents.

TLDR: Do both PLD/DRK if you can, if not, doesn't really matter until you get into raiding more seriously.

You'll be best served with the DRK honestly, since they can actually do AoE DPS which contributes to clearing content faster. PLD's defensive cooldowns really only matter because PLD take damage longer than other tanks, since PLD contribute very little to DPS as compared to DRK and WAR's DPS output.

This is a game about killing enemies, and all tanks have equal damage mitigation but do not have equal DPS output. Thus the tank who kills enemies faster will always be the better tank. Your incoming damage decreases when mobs die faster.

While warriors aoe is easily the best, paladins are not that lamentable in aoe for >5 mobs, given that multidotting as a paladin is actually quite potent. Dark knight also will have the issue of mp drain associated with aoeing draining their resources rather quickly when BP is not up.

Not to say it's close to warrior, just that your underestimating plds aoe on >5 mobs. After that things start to get wonky. (When you cannot keep dots up semi-reliably on all mobs at the same time)

If you've got the time to drop Goring Blades on more than five mobs and those subsequent Gorings get to tick their full duration,

your group is taking an awfully long time to kill them. That's if I'm understanding what you meant correctly.

I have both at L60. I don't really have the desire to play PLD anymore, I just don't enjoy it as much.

Now the PLD gained so much in HW it is MUCH better than it was.....so much so that synced 50 content is unplayble to me as PLD now. Seriously, one combo?

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Originally Posted by vaitepiha

PALADIN : Great defense, no problem to manage TP (like the MRD) or MP (like the DRK), only one rotation
DRK : Technical, many CD, classy with his greatsword.

I prefer DRK but i play both...

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Your PLD info is wrong...
PLDs are the only class with a significant resource issue. WARs have equilibrium, and DRKs run out of TP way later than PLD (Their MP argument is moot because DRKs keep their MP up). Why do you say only one rotation? PLDs have RH, RA, GB just like WAR has BB, SE, SP.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

If you've got the time to drop Goring Blades on more than five mobs and those subsequent Gorings get to tick their full duration,

your group is taking an awfully long time to kill them. That's if I'm understanding what you meant correctly.

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Partially correct.

The other part is that once you hit 5 mobs, 2.44x3x5 = 36.6, which means you cannot keep goring blade up at all times. For 4 or less, you can keep it up on all them, or 3> you can flash and keep it up at all times.

The other part is yes, if you've got time to dot up 5 foes and it tick the full duration, then your group is taking too long and you've misjudged the aoe capabilites.

i.e. you wouldn't pull 8? mobs with 2 ninjas and an astralogian as a paladin. That's just going to be there for a while.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

It really comes down to what you want out of the tank you play. I\\'ve played both rather extensively at 60, and I personally prefer Paladin.

Paladin:
> Simple, rigid rotation without much flexibility. [GB>RA>RA]
> Very few off-gcd attacks which weave in easily to the rotation.
> Powerful defensive toolkit makes you a rather substantial defensive tank.
> Easy stance dancing - your Mana is essentially worthless, so changing stance is completely free.

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Psssttttt, WAR is the one with free stance dancing. It costs PLDs a GCD.

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Originally Posted by Anubis_Nephthys

Psssttttt, WAR is the one with free stance dancing. It costs PLDs a GCD.

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It doesn't interrupt combos, and it costs essentially 0 resources. It's for all intents and purposes a free swap, when comparing it to Dark Knight, as this thread asked me to do. Turning Grit on costs you 75% of a Dark Arts - it drains a resource you care about, rather than two casts of it (shield and then sword) costing you literally nothing other than DPS.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

It doesn't interrupt combos, and it costs essentially 0 resources. It's for all intents and purposes a free swap, when comparing it to Dark Knight, as this thread asked me to do. Turning Grit on costs you 75% of a Dark Arts - it drains a resource you care about, rather than two casts of it (shield and then sword) costing you literally nothing other than DPS.

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And War Stance Dancing to TANK does not immediately increase total EHP and from TANK immediately decreases total eHP, so it has it's own negative effect, but turning on ShO will IMMEDIATELY give a eHP increase of any % of HP.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I would recommend that you gain one more level on DRK and get the associated job skill. If you're mainly looking for something to explore the story with, let's just say that it makes a certain one-on-one fight significantly more epic.

There were two great moments in the class unveiling of DRK, during the lead-in to Heavensward. One was when it was revealed to be a tank, at Fanfest London. The second was during the Job Actions video, where they revealed that it had a gap closer. I mained PLD until 2.2, followed by WAR until 2.5. When I saw this, I hung up my axe and never looked back.

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THIS^ plunge is just so satisfying everytime I use it, helps get a lead on dps catching up to the mob, and lets you get right in there keeping a healthy distance from the healer(usually)

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

THIS^ plunge is just so satisfying everytime I use it, helps get a lead on dps catching up to the mob, and lets you get right in there keeping a healthy distance from the healer(usually)

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No stop.

Don't plunge pull. It's bad form and makes your DPS hate you. Please don't

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

No stop.

Don't plunge pull. It's bad form and makes your DPS hate you. Please don't

Thank you.

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Plunge pulling actually has its uses if done intelligently. Although its cringeworthy when a DRK just Unmendlessly hops over to a boss without warning.

I have mained Paladin for a year now, and I can tell you it can get boring at times. HOWEVER, as someone pointed out before, the simplicity of Paladin's damage output allows you to be very aware of your surroundings and the needs of your party. It's also the only tank that can offer immediate emergency support with Divine Veil, Stoneskin and Clemency, so it has that going for it. Also, Cover has niche uses but when you pull it off it's a satisfying skill to use. WAR and DRK can mitigate damage for the party but it's less direct than Paladin's soaking mitigation tools. Not only that, but I have found that Paladin's self-sustainability is almost uncompared, even if people tend to give that title to Warrior. I have soloed bosses in daily roulettes due to healers dying to mechanics and the like, and I fondly remember a time in which another PLD and me cleared the last boss in A6 without healers by timing tank swaps and using Clemency. There is a lot of fun to be had with Paladin!

That said, I've found myself more and more put off by playing Paladin in daily dungeons and the like. A large factor is that I think Paladin contributes awfully little in trash pulls. Your AoE solutions are Circle of Scorn and Flash, but one is in a 30 sec CD and the other deals no damage. I'm a firm believer that not doing any damage to mobs is a little bit of a waste of time, so keeping hate in large pulls as PLD is becoming increasingly hard as ILs raise (I stopped playing for a couple months and now everyone is higher than me).

That's why I started levelling DRK. It has much better AoE input than Paladin, and as everyone has said, it keeps you busy and with your attention heavily focused on your hotbars. While learning the job I've had some trouble paying attentions to boss mechanics and the like, but I'm quite fond of how it plays and how micro-managey it is (this coming from someone whose favorite DPS class to play is Summoner).

By now you have probably chosen your main, but another piece of advice I can give is that since the current endgame gear is shared by all classes of the same roles, you shouldn't be afraid to level both DRK and PLD to 60 and use them in scenarios that make you feel more comfortable with one job or the other.

Dark Knight is by far more enjoyable but PLD is easily the easier of all tank jobs

Before they buffed pld agro skills I'd have said drk is actually easiest to tank with since unleash is such an easy and satisfying and effective skill to spam, but now they're about even. Though it's rare to find a drk who doesn't use unleash enough while pld who under use flash are still common. As for survivability they're pretty close.