Is ninja dps starting to fall behind?

Feels like the other melee classes are scaling harder while nin falling behind just a tad. There are alot less ninja's around and more monks/drg's.

I guess that's why dev buff nin are supposed to be buff in 3.3.

When you account for their raid contribution via Trick Attack they're in pretty good shape, roughly even with Monks. To the extent that they're behind on padded/gamed numbers, that's probably AoE related (Yorn Pigs and such). Both are behind Dragoons by that contributed damage measure, but this seems to be intentional.

Ninja has the largest skill gap of the three melee. It's incredibly difficult (and dependent on connection speed) to be a very good Ninja. NINs can hold their own with the best DRGs and MNKs, it just takes a lot more skill than either other melee. There's far fewer GOOD Ninjas out there, because many people who play NIN fall victim to the same mentality that caused this thread to be made. When you THINK you can't match up to other melee, you're not going to.

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Originally Posted by Jinzhu

http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/10

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Fflogs doesn't really prove anything due to the fact of some people could out gear another and skill of the group they are in :P

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

Fflogs doesn't really prove anything due to the fact of some people could out gear another and skill of the group they are in :P

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Sure. Keep telling yourself that.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

Fflogs doesn't really prove anything due to the fact of some people could out gear another and skill of the group they are in :P

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those are the top rating for savage, with people who play their classes to the maximum of potential, who most likely have mostly, if not fully, i240 gear all around

Ninja is fine, pretty much equivalent to Dragoon at the fat part of the curve. Machinist is out of whack and higher than both of them at more data points than I'm sure the developers like, and Bard is in the gutter because fight design is crippling for them.

More broadly, you could just say that Machinist isn't really impacted much at all by fight mechanics, so long as the windows exist to build a functional buff alignment plan.

SE's done a good job keeping BLM vs. SMN balanced via fight design, and by adding Monk-like mechanics to DRG and NIN that kind of took care of itself. But in the midst of all this they've left Bards just kind of out there in the elements, swinging wildly from feast to famine depending on what SE happened to do to balance the other roles in a given fight.

NIN is the bandaid for the raid group. You help indirectly with your utility to bring the best out of others ;)

they can buff dancing edge for have more independence when whe are trying to make our best dps whitout a WAR, or worse, having a WAR how never try to have eye 100% of the time, is pretty annoying depend so much from WAR when the other classes don't have this problem, not in the same lvl at least.

I would love it if they buffed our damage. A nin can dream ;-;

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Originally Posted by shao32

they can buff dancing edge for have more independence when whe are trying to make our best dps whitout a WAR, or worse, having a WAR how never try to have eye 100% of the time, is pretty annoying depend so much from WAR when the other classes don't have this problem, not in the same lvl at least.

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Shhhh. Don't give them any ideas. They might add piercing debuff to MCH and BRD so that the DRG slot in parties isn't a 100% given anymore!

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Ninja has the largest skill gap of the three melee. It's incredibly difficult (and dependent on connection speed) to be a very good Ninja. NINs can hold their own with the best DRGs and MNKs, it just takes a lot more skill than either other melee. There's far fewer GOOD Ninjas out there, because many people who play NIN fall victim to the same mentality that caused this thread to be made. When you THINK you can't match up to other melee, you're not going to.

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I fell victim to this. I am now beginning to watch and read guides and stuff. I used to learn my jobs off trial and error, but DRK was the first class I learned from other sources. I am NIN main, so there shouldn't be a reason why I shouldn't put my all into it.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Ninja has the largest skill gap of the three melee. It's incredibly difficult (and dependent on connection speed) to be a very good Ninja. There's far fewer GOOD Ninjas out there, because many people who play NIN fall victim to the same mentality that caused this thread to be made. When you THINK you can't match up to other melee, you're not going to.

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I agree what's been said here on both accounts. I truly feel that being an excellent anything really depends on you being an excellent player. In the ninja's case, I've seen many people indeed stop trying to improve, which is could party be the reason why really good ninjas are not that easy to come by. And even then, for this class in particular, being decent is cinch, but being amazing is incredibly difficult considering how bottle-necked you become by ping which is more than any other class I feel (i.e. it's difficult to compare to ninjas at sub-50 ping with anything above that).

Ninja dps is fine like it's always been.It's never really been in a bad spot.Just we've had bad players on Ninja.Even if you aren't beating other dps on Ninja does it really matter if you're helping your MT stay in offensive stance and applying a constant debuff to the boss for more damage.
Ninjas need to focus more on what Ninja brings to teamplay instead of worrying about personal dps.

Kinda ties it to the east vs west ffxiv culture (exceptions within exist ofc). NA you push for individual goals while JP push for group. Saying ninja needs a dps buff instead of more ways to provide EVEN MORE raid utility for example

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Ninja dps is fine like it's always been.It's never really been in a bad spot.Just we've had bad players on Ninja.Even if you aren't beating other dps on Ninja does it really matter if you're helping your MT stay in offensive stance and applying a constant debuff to the boss for more damage.
Ninjas need to focus more on what Ninja brings to teamplay instead of worrying about personal dps.

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Im just tired of people posting numbers and the ninja is always 3rd in dps 200-300 dps lower then monk,drgs and blms.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

Im just tired of people posting numbers and the ninja is always 3rd in dps 200-300 dps lower then monk,drgs and blms.

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So long as the game is balanced where your personal DPS output is based on how much you give back to the party, that's just gonna be NIN life.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

Im just tired of people posting numbers and the ninja is always 3rd in dps 200-300 dps lower then monk,drgs and blms.

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You should probably realize that yes, they may be behind by 200-300 but trick attack is a raid wide dmg buff for the party and helps pick up the slack of their lower personal dps.

Nin isn't designed to be the hardest hitting class in the game... they are a utility class if you didn't know, I laughed when I seen what you said (200-300dps behind) their darn utility easily makes up for that, stop tunnel visioning your personal dps, it's not always about you when you are playing with a team (as nin).

Dancing Edge - party utility
Goad- party utility
Smokescreen- party utility
Shadewalker - party utility
trick attack - party utility

is greater than a lack of 200 personal dps, you will allow your tank to do more dmg by not being in tank stance + benefiting from dancing edge debuff

can negate any threat your blm generated with a pre cast smokescreen

can goad a warrior who is going crazy on aoeing adds or just being reckless with tp for more burst.

there is a thousand different things nin can do instead of having 200 more personal dps.

The job is mathematically balanced, lower personal dps, maximum utility, which increases the dps of others, constantly.

The only crap about nin is their aoe is bad, and is being addressed in 3.3.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

Im just tired of people posting numbers and the ninja is always 3rd in dps 200-300 dps lower then monk,drgs and blms.

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According to the dps requirements of SSS, NIN is only 70 dps behind DRG and thats without a WAR. With a WAR thats closer to 40 dps. Anyhhow, 200-300 dps difference means the ninja just wasnt playing well, or he had to do all of the mechanics (like LBing obviously).

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

The job is mathematically balanced, lower personal dps, maximum utility, which increases the dps of others, constantly.

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I wish more players thought like you. No matter how much damage I'm doing, if I am successfully keeping utilities active, there's still some complaint about 1300 dps. There are NINs out there who only care for Raiton and Trick Attack, but because they're doing 1500, they get the praise while the 1300 is flagged as bad.

It's utterly annoying when I'm being told to stop after I break a WAR's Storm to use Dancing Edge. Mind you, I only use Dancing Edge in situations where I have no choice (ie when Thordan faces the group when we need to stack for that Rage move). I wonder if they will be happier with a less-potent Aoelian Edge from the front.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

can negate any threat your blm drg or mnk generated with a pre cast smokescreen

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Fixed that bit for you. If the BLM is pulling hate, they should just pop QS before they roll into Sharp>Ley. DRG/MNK don't have that luxur- "Elusive Jump!" ... needs to be used for mechanics within 3m of the start of the fight (potentially in the case of A5S) in every instance in Midas save for maybe A8S where you're off the boss in 27s so eh?


That said - NO NINJA should sit there and say "I am 200 behind the DRG in my group with comparable gear! GOOD ENOUGH!" because no? You can be doing 100-150 higher - or more if your DRG isn't even hitting max. Never rest on your laurels. Yeah, your raid utility is amazing, but YOU are the one who benefits most from Trick Attack. You should be using it to benefit YOURSELF the most and let the other DPS adjust to YOUR rotation.

NIN DPS is not low unless you make it low. It's comparable to DRG because the utility brought by the two is pretty close (so long as the group has a respectable BRD/MCH) to even. Just because you bring utility doesn't mean you should settle for third place in the party by 200-300 DPS. :\

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

There are NINs out there who only care for Raiton and Trick Attack, but because they're doing 1500, they get the praise while the 1300 is flagged as bad.

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My question to you: "What the heck are you using if not Raiton and Trick Attack!?"
Those are the only worthwhile uses of Ninjutsu during an encounter. Armor Crush completely eliminates the need for Huton mid-fight. Unless you're replacing Raiton with Fuma during Hypercharge (which would buff dps higher) you should probably re-evaluate why you're being ragged on for 1300 dps.

Raiton and TA exist completely independent of your raid utility - they should be used no matter what so I'm completely baffled by what this statement is trying to imply.

MNK or DRG would fall behind too if 2/5 their new tools were enmity redirects.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

My question to you: "What the heck are you using if not Raiton and Trick Attack!?"

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The top NINs have picked up on Fuma > Raiton in most cases.

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Originally Posted by PFM

So long as the game is balanced where your personal DPS output is based on how much you give back to the party, that's just gonna be NIN life.

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This is the best way to balance a game IMO (something blizzard never been able to do with WoW). My problem is that ninja might to be the best class to be tagged as a "utility" one.

I mean since when in the RPG genre the ninja class is an utility one ?

Even in the FF franchise the ninja/assassin class pretty much always been an AoE dps class (AoE spell like flames) with potential burst (weapon trow) and high evade/run rate wich can easely translate into smoke screen I guess.

I'm all fine with dragoon, monk to be the king of melee single target DPS. But ninja should definatly be the king of AoE melee DPS.

I also do not always use raiton. You can you know Fuma>Kassatsu> Raiton. Fairly certain this would be higher potency then just using Raiton all the time (maintaining trick attack, dancing edge, etc.. aside)
Can correct me if i am wrong, i do not main Ninja anyhow, lol.
Helping Group> Personal dps....
Personal dps is what too many think of these days.

If your latency allows, using raiton is always a dps gain over fuma. the only time you should be using fuma is if you have bad lag.

A good tip for maintaining dmg uptime for maximum possible dps is to use your mudra right after a GCD. Considering how bad latency was, GCD clipping was much more severe. The whole Raiton vs Fuma debate in 2.x was because of this, as well as a Bards foe req (with Raiton preferred). Now in 3.x with fixed mudra lag machninist, fuma is pretty equal with raiton (shorter cast, longer range, hyper charge rook, war storm) with less GCD clip. Always crit Raiton with kassatsu raiton unless you fudge a mudra.

Tldr; use both depending on situation, but always right when GCD starts ticking

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Originally Posted by DarkerOrange

If your latency allows, using raiton is always a dps gain over fuma. the only time you should be using fuma is if you have bad lag.

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This is an interesting comment, considering the vast majority of the top NINs in the world according to fflogs use Fuma Shuriken as frequently as or more frequently than they use Raiton. So either you're doing something wrong, or they are. I won't pretend to know which it is.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

This is an interesting comment, considering the vast majority of the top NINs in the world according to fflogs use Fuma Shuriken as frequently as or more frequently than they use Raiton. So either you're doing something wrong, or they are. I won't pretend to know which it is.

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IIRC, the reason for the frequent Fuma usage was that Raiton tends to clip into the GCD. So if DarkerOrange's argument for Raiton is simply because of the difference in potency, I believe he's incorrect.

My Raiton clips by less than 0.2 secs (average of 0.18), so it is better for me to raiton in almost all situations. The exception to this is my opener in A7S, cos of the movement round the boss Fuma works better.

Okay. Base GCD for NIN is 2.12. A delay of 0.18 would be 2.30.

Fuma Shuriken is 240 x 1.1 x 1.2 = 316.8 base potency (slashing debuff + poison)
Raiton is 360 = 360 base potency

316.8 / 2.12 = 149.4 pps
360 / 2.30 = 156.5

So it looks pretty good. However, if you're running with a Machinist, Hypercharge is up occasionally, which boosts that 149.4 pps to 164.4, a rather substantial gain over using Raiton during said Hypercharge. Even with Kassatsu, your Kassatsu Fuma would beat out your Kassatsu Raiton with Hypercharge in play, assuming you remembered your poison and Dancing Edge / Storm's Eye is active. I dunno what your SKS is, though, where you're seeing a 0.18s delay, but the gap between Hypercharge Fuma and Raiton only gets larger the more SKS over 354 you have, keeping the 0.18 delay constant.

Unless I'm missing something...? In which case, enlighten me, please. D:

Trying to figure out pointers for my static NIN who's trying to improve.

Yea, looks like with hypercharge fuma pulls ahead. I guess I will start using fuma when our MCH has that up. You learn something new everyday :D about to do A7S for the week, so I shall give it a try.

Pulled 1734 dps using mostly fuma (only using raiton with kassatsu + no hyper), so it certainly isn't any worse. I will retract my above statement :)

I've been a NIN main for about a year now. And I would agree with all the comments about bad ninjas. It took me a long time to realize that I was a bad ninja at one time. (I'm not the best now, but Im much better than I was). But after learning the tricks of the utilities and mudras, I've found that most other ninjas tend to shirk on some abilities, the biggest one being DOTs. Or not using Suiton and TA (guilty of that at one time). The fact is that ninja is a great and fun class with awesome utilities. The issues lies in the players who don't reflect on their performance or try new things. It's easy to assume that you can shirk on mutilate if Fang is up. Or not applying DE when there's no warrior in the group. NIN requires a well rounded view of the class. But it's incredibly satisfying when you get the hang of it, and is still a great contender in the DPS class.

What about Raiton when you're in a party with a Bard running FOe's Requiem?

Since Hypercharge and Storm/DE are discussed.

If Foe's Requiem is on you should switch to Raiton. Especially with the upcoming bard buffs with a shorter Battle Voice since you will get a stronger Foe's most of the time then.

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Originally Posted by DarkerOrange

If your latency allows, using raiton is always a dps gain over fuma. the only time you should be using fuma is if you have bad lag.

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This is no longer true even with perfect lag (or rather, perfect lack of lag.) The #s don't add up for it anymore unless you have absolutely 0 sks in your set which isn't really possible at this time. Putting yourself behind even a fraction of a second every 20 seconds quickly adds up to lost gcds.