Hey everyone,
So as a Paladin who loves tanking, dealing high damage and always wanting to grow in skill... i wanna know what you DPS, Healers, fellow Tanks (OT, MT) all need from us. Just wanna open a discussion, I never want to burden a team or be the downfall of a boss fight or dungeon raid. Though I havn't run into any major issues yet or have made any terrible mistakes (that im aware of), I believe in training and constantly learning to improve skills to be the best Tank i can be, so when your in a dungeon and my name pops up, u know u can rely on me...which is really what a Paladin is.
- What are some of the challenges Healers and DPS run into with Tanks that may lack some experience?
- What are some tips you could give to Tanks (specifically Paladins in this thread) to help them be better at Tanking?
- Overall what does everyone look for in a great Tank that makes you wish they were in your dungeons or raids with you?
lll start by posting what I try to do and keep in mind when going through dungeons (havn't done raids yet so information there would be helpful!)
I use Shield Oath at the beginning and through 99% of the dungeon (if im having an easy time holding enmity i switch to sword Oath to help with damage) Do my intro combo's...shield lob, flash, circle of scorn...maybe fight or flight before all that, then into my FB/SB/RH combo. Adding in shield bash and swipe when necessary and of course spirits within. Ill flash a few times and switch between monsters in mobs to keep them on me when i need to. Using provoke if i need to.
I know its helpful when myself or someone Marks the enemies in a mob so we can all attack the SAME target and im not battling anyone (cept healer) for enmity, i personally dont like it when im in a mob of 3-5 that have a good amount of hp, and DPS characters each pick a diff target (or one dps takes it upon themselves to attack a second member of the mob when everyone else is attacking another guy) and "go to town"...instead of everyone attacking one guy. (obv there are exceptions to this in big pull dungeons where im flashing mobs like mad and dps uses there AOE moves) But maybe there is a reason for that im not aware of that no one has voiced before? What are your thoughts on that?
So aside from tricks in certain dungeons (knocking bombs away, keeping main bosses in a certain corner ect) thats what I try and do atm to tank...keep all the enemies off my healer and dps (not letting them get hit even once is my goal but cannot be avoided sometimes) while helping deal as much damage as i can do.
(I of course also help out my team with Paladin covers, and healing/defense/damage buffs...)
So wanting to see what others think, what others in diff classes struggle with and would like to see from Paladins, would like to clear the air about some issues that seems grey and open up a line of communication while not in a dungeon so we can take the time to learn. Did a lot of reading but it seems everyone has a lot of diff opinions about things...pls discuss.
Tank/Paladin tips, What would you like to see?
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05-13-2016, 02:37 AMAdachi452Tank/Paladin tips, What would you like to see?
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05-13-2016, 03:13 AMSoloNightlock
One of the biggest issues i see with tanks unfamiliar with this games mechanics is positional dps; mnks, drg and to a lesser extent ninjas all have attacks that have higher potencies when executed on the bosses rear or flank. When i play mnk nothing makes me more irritated than a boss thats spinning for no good reason. >_>
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05-13-2016, 03:27 AMAdachi452Interesting! See ive never played any DPS yet so I didnt know that. Usually i keep my enemies and bosses backs turned to the other players to prevent any AOE they have from hitting them, but i didnt know those DPS types have higher attack potency when hitting the enemy from the rear. First reply and already i learned something helpful. Thanks man!Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloNightlock
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05-13-2016, 03:29 AMQuorPiggybacking off of this, as a tank, when you move out of an aoe, try to move back to where you were so that the mob orientation doesn't change too much, if at all possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloNightlock
Open a pull with your ranged pulling skill, then follow with a Flash/Unleash/Overpower series equivalent to the number of mobs in the pull (so four mobs = four back-to-back Flash/UL/OP). Substitute Dark Passenger, Steel Cyclone or Circle of Scorn for one use of Flash/UL/OP. That should give you a solid threat lead over the healer, and gives you plenty of time to build aggro on the first kill target before you start comboing the other mobs. Add more aoe skills as necessary to hold aggro if, say, you're aoeing down the pack of mobs, or if you note the healer had to use a big heal of some sort (aoe or otherwise).
Please, please use cooldowns. You don't need to save them for the boss. For example, a WAR doing a big aoe pull (say 8-10 mobs) using Vengeance with Bloodbath, SC and OP, as well as Equilibrium, can keep themselves up for quite some time before needing intervention from the healer. Less time healing = more time spent helping with damage = faster killing = faster dungeon run. -
05-13-2016, 03:30 AMEbonwings
PLD is a simple class to play and more defensive in the exchange of lower dps compared to the other two tanks. Just make sure your gear is up to date, altnerate RoH between each mobs in a group , using cooldowns ( letting it sits there just a waste), always turn the mobs back toward the party ( making flank and rear accessible to DPS), and don't pull more than you can handle. Also in a big pulls, DPS will most likely using their aoe which makes hitting all mobs with RoH combo challenging. In this situation just spam flash, Riot Blade combo, CoS. I guess this is the most simplified, PLD tips i could give.
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05-13-2016, 03:30 AMJackFross
I play DPS, Healers, and Tanks regularly. There are a few things I specifically want out of tanks that are tied to the role I'm playing.
I'll list these things off in order of priority when I'm playing each role.
DPS junk:
D1. {Please draw enmity.} Nothing at all makes me more frustrated than a Tank who loses hate to me on the pull and lets me die or fucks up the boss' initial mechanic because he spun around to hit me with something. In Sephirot EX, this can cause an immediate wipe with the initial frontal cleave. In A5N or A5S, this can cause me to die to Headache stacks. Most bosses, the risk is death. If this happens later on in the fight, I get even more peeved, because there's no excuse for that.
D2. Tanks should deal damage. Yeah - I know what you're thinking. I'm the DPS, it's my job to do damage. Sure, okay, but that's bullshit, plain and simple. I understand the need to mitigate incoming damage and be a Tank, but when comparing two Tanks who handle 1 with equivalent skill, the better Tank is then determined 100% by their damage output. A level 60 tank turtling and spamming Rage of Halone in Shield Oath because of ?????????????? is bad. Bad. Bad. Bad. Not "learning" - B A D.
D3. Tank mechanics should not be ignored. I want my tank to properly deal with the mechanics of the fight. Swap when they're supposed to, pull the boss effectively from point to point as needed, otherwise just don't die to tank busters and the like. Seriously. When 1 and 2 exist in equal measure, the next and final way that I measure a Tank is on how they move around the battlefield and handle Tank-specific mechanics. A Tank who doesn't swap when they should is bad. A Tank who pulls the boss at SUPER SPEED across the room (read: running while the boss is casting so it then runs faster-than-player-speed to where the Tank is now) is bad and doing things wrong. There are smarter and more effective ways to do the same thing and not make the DPS pissed off. A7N/S is a really good example of this. The boss runs /really/ fast. Moving too soon for mechanics results in dropped GCDs for your melee DPS and makes them frustrated and pissy and more likely to make mistakes.
Healer concerns:
Basically the same three as above, except for different reasons, and in the same order.
D1. {Please draw enmity.} When a Tank loses threat to a healer, the healer dies. It's usually the healer's fault, but a good Tank can save a bad healer. Mucking up mechanics in A5, for instance, causes heals to be unnecessarily focused on you during the tank buster phases, because your Concussion comes out sooner so you take Headache stacks as it builds up rather than just before the big hit.
H1. Proper/effective Mitigation is necessary. I don't mean SPAM RAGE OF HALONE - that's rarely / never necessary. I mean pop a cooldown for a big hit, drop RoH before a physical tank buster, be aware of when you can and when you SHOULD use which cooldowns to most effectively mitigate incoming damage. Don't pop randomly. Don't ignore or miss a pop. A good tank is measured by how effectively they mitigate incoming damage. NOT by how much damage they mitigate.
D2. Tanks should deal damage. Faster kills are more effective kills. A GOOD Tank should know when to do damage and when to mitigate. You should be stance dancing - as any Tank - when it's safe to do so. There are times in fights where dropping Shield Oath, Grit, or Defiance change literally nothing about how many heals are needed, because the incoming damage is so small. Learn when those periods are and start DPSing more. A Paladin who uses Sword Oath whenever Ratfinx is a baby in A5N or S is a good Paladin who I like to heal. A Paladin who stays in Shield Oath with healers who aren't DPSing at all is a bad Paladin. It depends on quality of healers, but any and every Tank should be able to tell if it's safe or not based on previous parts of the encounter.
D3. Tank mechanics should not be ignored. Effective and necessary Tank swaps should be handled gracefully, purposefully, and correctly. Failure to do so makes the Healer sad because they're either raising a dead tank or dumping twice as many resources into healing from the failed mechanic than they would have had to if it was done properly. Good examples include Double Rocket Punch in A8, the tank buster in A5, and the swaps in A6.
Tank concerns:
T1. OUT-DPS ME. Yes. The most important and most vital one of all of the Tank concerns. When I'm the main tank on a fight, my off-tank had better be doing more damage than I am - or at least comparable - especially if I'm in tank stance. If I'm above them, that's a serious issue and one I get really offended by. This tank muscled me into tank stance and then proceeded to shit the bed and do 500-600 DPS while I push 1000-1200. This has happened before on A6N to me playing Paladin and it's really frustrating.
T2. Please stop being dumb.
Using Sheltron against Brawler and Swindler when the former isn't shooting a drill because...?
Ignoring tank swaps and letting me die to my second 5+ stack Single Buster since I burned HG on the last one because...?
Pulling Blaster and Vortexer all the way north as soon as the encounter begins, despite the fact that each one of them is going to use a mechanic less than 10s into the fight that forces you to move because...?
Pulling a boss and facing it south to start in any situation ever for any reason (yes even A1N and A1S) because...?
Nothing is more frustrating than a Tank who doesn't know how to do the fight and then pulls and handles it wrong when I'm standing right here, knowing a better way to do things from dozens of times in the instance, practicing and learning better ways to handle things.
T3. Stop being bad. I can always tell when a Tank is just being a fucking Tank. A Dark Knight at full Mana. A Paladin with the boss being constantly afflicted with Strength Down but never Goring Blade. A Warrior where the boss has plenty of Storm's Path but never any Storm's Eye. Just stop. I know all three Tanks - as every Tank should at a basic level - and it's frustrating when you, as my partner, are making me look bad by being garbage at your Job. Just do the basics. Turn Darkside on and use Dark Arts occasionally. Keep Goring Blade flowing. Don't let Storm's Eye drop off. Beyond that, do whatever you want - I don't care.
D3. Tank mechanics should not be ignored. Tank swaps. For the love of fuck, drop tank stance when the Provoke goes off. You should be anticipating the swap, because it's time to swap. You should be watching the party list and know exactly when to swap based on when the OT's hate bar fills up and turns to A. No excuses.
That's pretty much it. I could apply the other points from previous ones to Tank concerns, but I think I've written enough. -
05-13-2016, 04:22 AMAdachi452
Really good tips and info here guys!!! thanks! Keep em coming,
Jack- REALLY good in depth explanation, REALLY helpful!! Good to get someone whose played them all to give us some perspective from all sides. Im gonna print that comment and look it over a few times.
Few questions though, im guessing a lot of this stuff has to do with high level raids and dungeons i havnt done yet. So its good to know this ahead of time. I havnt been able to use Goring Blade in a dungeon...im level 57 not 60. I admit i spam rage of Halone when i cant use goring blade to keep the bosses strength down, and use my cool downs to maximize damage and defense. While using Spirits within and such to hit hard when avail. But if im in a lower dungeon, using rage of halone a lot shouldnt be a bad thing right? since it keeps the bosses strength down? (i also try to flash weave to blind the enemies and bosses, and shield bash to stun and stop AOE if they are not immune)
I like the stance dance thing, switching to Sword Oath to deal more damage as opposed to staying in Shield Oath 100% (if u can help it) i do that when i can, depending.
I admit i dont understand some of the things u mentioned (maybe bcc i havnt done them) like "T2. Please stop being dumb."
not sure about these points, i understand pulling bosses south (meaning towards the characters right?) instead of pulling him north and making his back face my team? is that what u mean? Could u explain the other points in more detail maybe so i fully understand pls?
D3. Tank mechanics should not be ignored. Effective and necessary Tank swaps should be handled gracefully, purposefully, and correctly. Failure to do so makes the Healer sad because they're either raising a dead tank or dumping twice as many resources into healing from the failed mechanic than they would have had to if it was done properly. Good examples include Double Rocket Punch in A8, the tank buster in A5, and the swaps in A6. (Could u explain this one a bit more pls)
And when your talking "Tank mechanics" could u explain what the mechanics are just to be safe? When u say that im thinking...where im standing...how im making the boss stand in relation to my team, dodging bosses AOE...like things a tank needs to keep in mind, is that what your saying?
Again thanks for the great info! -
05-13-2016, 04:31 AMAdachi452Yes, very good points, i do try and move back to where i was b4 if i dodge an AOE so the team doesnt have to re-orient themselves or the healer doesnt lose track of me. Sometimes its hard in certain dungeons like the Aurum Vail when im dodging huge AOE plus trying not to step in yellow pools of death. But i do try.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quor
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05-13-2016, 11:05 AMgarret_hawke
Until you hit 60 in boss fights use RoH when GB is ticking. Things changes at 60 with Royal Authority
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05-13-2016, 02:33 PMSarcaticaRe-clipping GB is better than spamming RoH. 240pot initial + 50pot every tick vs. 260pot. Only use RoH if you absolutely need it.Quote:
Originally Posted by garret_hawke
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05-13-2016, 09:57 PMAdachi452
Okay ill keep that in mind for when i hit level 60, thanks!
Only use RoH if you absolutely need it. Just curious as to when that might be and how you would use it in an example? -
05-13-2016, 10:27 PMSarcaticaThe easy way is to pull with RoH combo and observe the aggro meter. If dps is weak, you can afford to do more DPS with GB combo back to back. Also consider getting used to tanking in Sword Oath for boss fights. Most of them are pretty easy to pull off. If you are going to raid as any tank, tanking in DPS stance is a good asset to have. That will require you to constantly think about using CDs more effeciently and knowing how much you can chew.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adachi452
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05-13-2016, 10:53 PMAdachi452
Ah gotcha, any tips or tricks on using CD's effectively? What do u try and do/keep in mind?
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05-14-2016, 12:32 AMJackFross1-25 the optimal rotation for damage is Fast Blade > Riot Blade > repeat - use it when you won't lose hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adachi452
26-53 the optimal rotation for damage is Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Rage of Halone > repeat
54-59 the optimal rotation for damage is Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Goring Blade > repeat - use it when you won't lose hate.
At 60 the optimal rotation for damage is FB>RB>GB>FB>SB>Royal Authority>FB>SB>RA> repeat - replace 1 RA with 1 RoH if needed for hate.
At any level, the following skills should be used on cooldown if you have them:
Fight or Flight (delayed in the GCD before the third hit of a combo to maximize effectiveness)
Circle of Scorn
Spirits Within
Shield Swipe
Spirits Within is a special case, though, since it's a Silence, as well, and there are some rare situations where the Silence effect is beneficial compared to its damage output. In Savage raiding, there's a boss that requires Silences - a Paladin can hit every one of them with Spirits Within and thereby allow all the DPS to use their Silence skills as they come up for maximum damage. There's also mobs in level 60 dungeons which use attacks which can be Silenced, rather than Stunned. If you Silence an AoE (or Pacify a physical AoE) you can just keep standing there without ever interrupting the flow of your combos. Plus you get to feel like a boss. Win/win/win situation.
Everything I listed there is specific to level 60 content. Boss names and such from current raid bosses where people tank them like idiots and it makes me mad. To expand on it:Quote:
Originally Posted by Adachi452
Brawler and Swindler have a Magical auto-attack and a Magical buster and don't do any physical damage, yet I see PLDs pop Sheltron pre-pull when running up. You can't block magic damage.
Brawler uses a "Single Buster" attack which does more damage to the tank based on how long they've been tanking him. If you have 5+ stacks of it, it's essentially a one-shot. You usually swap around 2 or 3 (2 is safest and correct, people do 3 because they can and are dumb). You CAN solo-tank the boss, but DPS needs to be on point - and it never is in DF.
Many tanks will grab a boss and drag it north as soon as the fight begins out of some sort of falsely-held belief that it is the correct way to tank. 10 times out of 10 it is incorrect to immediately drag a boss directly north at the start of an encounter. It is always beneficial to hold it where it is at the start (cheated a bit south by the opening Tomahawk/Shield Lob/Unmend) before pulling it - slowly - to the proper position. Dragging it too quickly will cause your BLM and SMN and BRD and MCH to drop DPS as the boss gets dragged out of their range and will cause your DRG/MNK/NIN to all have to chase the boss across the entire field before they can even begin their attacks. Bad form. Don't do it.
I've also encountered tanks who will pull the boss correctly (in Shield Lob > let boss get to them before next GCD spin > attack again/hold steady) only they decide it's best to then just keep the boss facing South - aka where the party starts the fight. This forces everyone to then adjust to you. DRG/MNK/NIN all benefit from being able to access the flank and rear of the opponent for their various attacks, so holding him facing your damage dealers on the pull is slowing down their start and adding a significant amount of time on to the encounter.
The reference to A1N and A1S is because it's a fight where an inordinate amount of people think it's optimal (IT IS NOT. IT IS 100% NOT OPTIMAL ALWAYS.) to pull the boss all the way south at the start. It's dumb, delays damage output from the DPS, and does quite literally nothing of worth for easing the battle later on. There's a point where a second one spawns which will tether to the other guy and give them both damage stacks, effectively causing a wipe. This spawn has a MASSIVE tell to it. It's really easy to just pull the boss south when the tell starts and suddenly everything is fine and the DPS aren't pissed off. Technically, the optimal thing is to have the MT hold it steady and then when the tell starts, the OT provokes that one and drags it south, letting the MT grab the new one that spawns. But that's neither here nor there.
Tank mechanics are things such as:Quote:
Originally Posted by Adachi452
1. The boss is using a large-damage-attack that targets the tank.
>> The tank should utilize mitigation skills to nullify the damage.
2. The boss needs to be moved so that the players can continue to attack it optimally without being killed.
>> The tank should move the boss to that position, taking care to keep its hitbox out of any hazards on the ground. There are times at 60 where large AoEs form and some tanks will drag the boss just enough that they'll be safe, but the boss is standing in poison... with melee dps standing there trying to figure out what they should do. This is bad - don't do it.
3. The boss is using an attack that splits damage over targets hit either party-wide or just two targets.
>> The tanks need to be aware of these attacks and adjust accordingly. Shiva Extreme has a party-soak attack. Brawler in endgame content has a party-soak attack. Brute Justice in endgame content has a two-tank soak attack. Kaliya from the coils of Bahamut also has a two-tank soak attack, as well as Hydra from the relic quest.
As far as this is concerned, it requires some knowledge of the fight to use them super effectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adachi452
1. When you know the healers will need to focus on AoE healing, you might want a cooldown to make their lives easier when they return to you.
2. When a large-damage-attack is incoming. These usually have cast bars, though lately a lot of them don't.
3. When you're holding more than one enemy for some reason, it's generally a good idea to use one. -
05-14-2016, 02:09 AMSarcaticaIt's more like if I use it now, will I have it back for another tank buster? If yes, good. If not, what are the other alternatives to use? Most tank busters can be done with 1 good defensive CD (a few requires you to stack a lot more), Rampart/Sentinel being your butter and bread for PLD, while Hallowed Ground is heavily dependent on the content you are running (mostly cheesing). Stuff like Conva/Foresight should be paired with other small CDs if you don't know how much you can chew yet. Sheltron/Bulwark (Bulwark is a poor man's Intuition Raw, feelsbadman) pretty much for heavy physical attacks (tank busters/auto alike), also normally used to get easy procs of Shield Swipes for more DPS. Awareness is situational for whatever bosses. There are some bosses that do crit a lot more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adachi452
Recognizing which tank buster is magical or physical is great for a starter. Some tank busters may look like they are physical, but they are magical, vice versa. -
05-14-2016, 02:50 AMDestous
I'd like to see Bulwark remove the CD or massively reduce the CD on Shield Swipe.
I'd like to see Sheltron reset the CD on Shield Swipe.
I'd like to see Clemency lose it's cast time, even if it means a numbers nerf.
I'd like to see RA turned into a 3 mob cleave, with normal potency on the main target and 50% damage on up to two additional targets.
I'd like to see Flash oGCD with a 10s CD; or given a potency value that scales with attack power. -
05-14-2016, 03:07 PMErim-NelhahQuote:
Originally Posted by garret_hawke
Actually, if you look at the entire combo for each of those abilities, GB is +10 potency before any DoT ticks (+30 from RB, then -20 from GB). Just something to realize. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
Just one thing to note: Yes, this is the best/safest way to do it, but if you're the OT, wait until the red "scanner" circles stop spinning around the boss to provoke it. If you provoke too soon, you'll end up with full enmity on both the boss and its clone. Also, if you want to do it this way in A1N on DF, tell the other tank - it's not the standard way of doing it in DF, at least for A1N. The reason it's safer is because mis-timing the provoke on the clone can lead to a wipe (it's possible to target and provoke the clone before it loses its invulnerability).Quote:
Originally Posted by JackFross
--Erim Nelhah