PVP Thoughts and Suggestions!

Well, im a big fan of pvp and me and many other pvpers queue alot but end up with hours of queues, tbh 10 minutes Is unrealistic, the reason we have these queues is not enough incentives to attract the casuals, pve, rpers to run it. Another reason is the 3 modes we have for fronlines are very alike, no rotating maps each mode, i and few old ls members agreed. Modes tend to be very identical. Seal,slaughter are secure dead, feast now starting to slow the heck down as the pattern is usually! Many pvpers i talk to (even casuals) think just few new modes here and there added like Capture The Flag or Team Death Match of pure chaotic war, extended time, more seal reward! for a expansion i think openworld pvp map would be epic,ect.... Gear its kinda worthless and its the reason many pvpers cutback and pve peeps rarely queue, so like elder scrolls online i think if your gonna give us pvp make the gear epic (Top Gear In Game) states and looks, not look ok and stats be garbage, so make pvp gear mean alot more. Give us more i mean alot more rewards for pvping and dedicating out time to pvp make it so attractive to casuals, Hardcore pve peeps and the funny rpers. As in eso good gear is obtained by pvp too! Also i think a mini story or PVP ONLY Relic set would be awesome and attract alot of peeps and new players. I think a custom-made, glow style would appeal to alot, (Important) Please add more skills to pvp too lut us make our own builds, maybe pve too tbh. Last request but demand please fix queues. I will post more as we discuss and rage over dead pvp. :D Dealt with the horrible queues for almost 2 years plus!

Please no mean or rude replies since its not a demand im very happy with the feast except dps queues

I started on a Japanese server, went there and back twice for PVP. I'm assuming it's the same, and ques are super fast. A lot of the issues we have that kill ques and participation, they don't have or overlook. It wouldn't make sense to revamp a system when it's already working as intended? for all the Japanese players. After I read the notes for feast I let my sub run out before it released. I just resubbed last week, got gold in a few days, and won't be going back there unless I get knocked out the top 100.

It seems like they strengthened Limit break to make up for the gap in players skill levels & class imbalance. What you suggested about more customization and PvP builds is completely opposite of what they've been doing. Which is simplifying it, like how they cut out the PvP materia? and morale, and now using PvP items (sprint), etc.

As far as suggestions go... since a new FL is coming out & there's a good chance that'll be the main go to mode for PvP. Make multiple achievement rewards for kills, damage taken, damage dealt, and amount you healed. Doesnt need to be based on role you're even on. That's the best idea I could think of to make more people participate in PVP.

Make. Wolf. Marks. Worth. Something.

I think that is the single best change SE can make at this point... If Wolf Marks had a consistent purpose, so that people always wanted more, people would always be interested in farming them, and thus always interested in PvP... If they gave us Lv60 Secure/Slaughter, they could even make the PvP rewards on the Frontlines Roulette the "In Need" bonus, rather than daily, and that would be the main way people queue for Frontlines, meaning we'd have four different modes to play through, rather than the flavour of the month system we've been stuck with all this time...

I also think, while not addressing queue problems, SE could always just give us something to do while waiting... Yes, I can craft or play Triple Triad while I wait for PvP, but you know what? When I queue for PvP, I want to PvP... If we could have duels as simply as we can play Triple Triad with each other, I at least would be entertained by that while waiting... Could even go a step further, queuing for PvP? A few people waiting with you, but not enough for a full match? Start a match anyway... Not a proper match, there'd be no balance and no rewards, no real objective, but you'd be able to run around a PvP instance PvPing while you wait... When enough people are queuing for a proper match, the play match ends and the proper match begins... Would others be more tolerant of long queues with something like that?

I'd start with making PvP "fun".

I know fun is subjective and all, but...all those people who played the feast back when it first came out, when there were insta-queues for both 4vs4 and 8vs8 ultimately quit because it wasn't fun to them. If these people had enjoyed it, they would still queue frequently (though admittedly not quite as frequently) and not just grab their rewards and run away as fast as they can. Unlike dungeons, PvP has a high innate replayability, because no game is exactly the same - part of the reason why DotA could become a raging success with only a single map and no rewards whatsoever during the WC3 days.

I'm honestly amazed that people still think this can just easily be fixed with rewards. If people only queue for rewards, they are gone the moment they get them and they won't even bother in the first place if the reward seems out of reach (Hey there, rewards for the top 100!). And that's assuming the reward is exclusive, if it it's not, people might rather get it another way instead.

IMO, PvP core gameplay needs to change for it to become and stay somewhat popular. How? I don't know. But one thing is for sure: The current gameplay does not appeal to a great many players and that's why all of SEs attempts to enliven it are short-lived.

I think pvp is fun, and have more replayability than the dungeon, especialy the dungeons... just linear and not challenging at all.
rewards is not appeling at all, ugly and useless pvp set, it don't work like dota, dota is a pvp moba game where the pvp is the center of the game.
when in FFXIV we have pve/pvp content with rewards in the two side, the game work a lot in the reward, on the paper it's just not fun to do 400 run of the same primal you know by heart to get a mount because you need luck to get and it's a rare drop, but players do it anyway.

Tbh i play Elder Scrolls Online and if you have ever heard of a Imperial City dlc, the currency is Tel Var stones and its definitely worth farming also alliance points in eso means alot. Maybe square enix can copy this and make better! Also i agree about the queue waitin pvpm Maybe se should make a open world dueling pvp are just for fun were people wont die but can hit 1% while waiting for queues it would be sweet but idk! Frontline queues are crazy! I agree with your post!

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Originally Posted by kensatsu

I think pvp is fun, and have more replayability than the dungeon, especialy the dungeons... just linear and not challenging at all.
rewards is not appeling at all, ugly and useless pvp set, it don't work like dota, dota is a pvp moba game where the pvp is the center of the game.
when in FFXIV we have pve/pvp content with rewards in the two side, the game work a lot in the reward, on the paper it's just not fun to do 400 run of the same primal you know by heart to get a mount because you need luck to get and it's a rare drop, but players do it anyway.

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I understand your post and i agree pve farming is 100% boring and hell i think about haituses after too much, pvp is for competitive play, fun, ego's, tbh should bold great rewards for pvp, pve,crafting, ect!

All bold from skills! Why can we get extra skills to mold our own builds! Also 72 man secure was epic and people who disliked was probably feeding, not strategically smart, people were mean or used lb wrong and/or Adders lol

yeah it's why i think have attractive reward on PVP would help, also have a high demand on wolfmarks will make players want to win, because you got more wolfmarks by win.
i think good looking pvp set would do the trick but like someone say here, when the players have it, this players don't play pvp anymore, it's not enough.
remove the wolfmarks cap or set it higher, make kick ass but expensive rewards,
for even better looking pvp armor/weapon. or even a shining mount ?
Players do a lot of primal run to get a shining mount, i see almost everytimes a bismarks ex or a ravana ex pf. Even if it's boring to one shoot the same primal again and again, there is players didactated to this.
PVP is more interesting to play buck realy lack rewards. So this collectors guys just get a pvp set or two and never pvp again, and return to boring poney/bird farming

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Originally Posted by kensatsu

for even better looking pvp armor/weapon. or even a shining mount ?

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There already is the Gloria (Feast) and the ADS mount (Seal Rock). There is also the Fenrir pup, which many people rather buy over the MB than play PvP themselves. On my server, the PvP orchestrion roll goes for 400k last I checked. There's also the field commander set, which actually looks rather good. Lots of titles in the modes to be gained as well. On top of it all, Feast and Seal Rock provide both esos and lore for PvE progression. I'm not even mentioning the ranked rewards here.

To compare, a primal gives esos, lore and a chance at a mount.

I'd say 4vs4 Feast is one of the most rewarding things in the game currently, giving a mount, a chance at a minion, titles, tomes, wolf marks for gil and a shot at the ranking rewards.

I think the best option would be to add more things that can be bought with Wolf Marks, maybe increasing the currency cap on it too.

My best idea/suggestion would be housing items. There will be a huge amount of houses available over the next couple of patches and people will want to create their own space so introducing this would be the best way to address both of these aspects of the game in one fell cleave.

so doing 400 times the same primal is more fun than doing pvp ? [seem fun is not what players is looking]
i heard from so many guys say : gloria is so ugly, i don't care of have it.

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Originally Posted by kensatsu

so doing 400 times the same primal is more fun than doing pvp ?

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I'm inclined to say: Yes. And as I said prior, these people typically never queue for that primal again afterward.

If you don't like Gloria, there's still ADS (which even got nostalgic value for those who played coil) plus a full armor set for Seal Rock. In addition, there are the grand company specific mounts which are rewarded for any of the frontlines. People don't exactly queue en masse for that either.
Running the same expert dungeon for the umpteenth time is considered more fun than 7 rounds of the feast, which yields the same rewards.

You can throw a dozen more mounts, armors and whatnots in. It doesn't change the fact that people don't "want" to PvP. And that means that the people you are trying to attract here do not care about the gamemode and they'll play accordingly. Which then just leads to more angry threads about horrible players >_>

It's not i dislike or like gloria, i got it , ads and the gear too.
but you are right when you say it don't attract players so badly.
I still think it lack a little of rewards even for pvpers, i mean queue is not a problem when there new rewards, it's when everyone got it, we start to get long queue. and pvp rewards is updated only all the 6 months, at the other side pve get new reward for every patch fortunaly, and crafter get new crafts in all the patch as well.
also i think we have somes players like this :
Pvper doing only pvp or a lot pvp and still playing even if there no reward left to get
Pve/pvp player : he play pvp till when he get the reward, after that there other rewards to get in pve, and offcourse he quit pvp and play pve
Pve player : Hate pvp and play only pve.
After this you can even add players queuing for pvp but when the pvp queue is too long, he want to play and offcourse he will not wait long queue to play pvp and do something else, only hardcore pvper will wait so long to get a game.
It's not just get new players into pvp, but get pvp live longer, many players do pvp only for the rewards.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

wolf marks for gil

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This is the issue I have with PvP rewards... Titles and mounts are nice and all, but Wolf Marks should be the main reward, but it's just very lackluster...

It's like dungeon gear... OK, sometimes there are a few good sets you might want for Glamour, but I can't think of many people going out of their way to farm dungeons for gear to trade in for GC Seals or for Desynthesis... No, that gear isn't what keeps dungeons alive, the tomestone rewards are, and that's what Wolf Marks should effectively be IMO...

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Originally Posted by Gryzz

I started on a Japanese server, went there and back twice for PVP. I'm assuming it's the same, and ques are super fast. A lot of the issues we have that kill ques and participation, they don't have or overlook. It wouldn't make sense to revamp a system when it's already working as intended? for all the Japanese players. After I read the notes for feast I let my sub run out before it released. I just resubbed last week, got gold in a few days, and won't be going back there unless I get knocked out the top 100.

It seems like they strengthened Limit break to make up for the gap in players skill levels & class imbalance. What you suggested about more customization and PvP builds is completely opposite of what they've been doing. Which is simplifying it, like how they cut out the PvP materia? and morale, and now using PvP items (sprint), etc.

As far as suggestions go... since a new FL is coming out & there's a good chance that'll be the main go to mode for PvP. Make multiple achievement rewards for kills, damage taken, damage dealt, and amount you healed. Doesnt need to be based on role you're even on. That's the best idea I could think of to make more people participate in PVP.

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Sorry off topic, but are you the person who visited my server? o_o

I love my hover board ;)

IMO PvP in FFXIV isn’t fun. I have tried it a few times but the length of matches vs. the time it takes to get into a match wasn’t a fair trade for me. To scratch my pvp itch I look to other games. That being said I WANT to enjoy pvp in FFXIV. The biggest threat to pvp in this game is the que times. Someone said they would rather do 400 of the same primal in a row because its “fun”. Well it’s because you are actively playing the game (and you can probably do 400 runs in the time it takes to do 20 pvp matches). Que times also hurt the community’s efforts to advertise the game as well. Not many people want to subscribe / follow a player that is standing around doing nothing, waiting for the match to start.

If SE looks at pvp as an afterthought then pvp will fail. Yes, they are developing new maps but I look at that as a waste of money. New maps / game types last about a month in this game. This new map isn’t going to bring in new business or previous customers to offset the cost of constructing it. The pvp system needs to be rebuilt in order to satisfy players both old and new. I would look at other successful titles and adopt something like this.

Make the Wolves Den an entrance to a new “PvP Staging” instance.
• Would be lvl synced to 60
• Players would have access to all jobs and abilities
• Do not allow pve gear/weapons
• Allow for normal xp gain
• Start a badge system that would increase rewards at the end of a match based on performance. i.e. Tanks get them for damage received, healers would be damage healed, things like that. This would reduce the “player doing nothing” for full rewards.

Having all players synced to 60 with all abilities allows for a number of things to happen.
• No more lvl 50 ques allows for the devs to allocate that que to the lvl 60s
• More players to que
• New players can jump straight into pvp
• Alternative lvling route
• “I don’t have that job lvled” isn’t an excuse not to play. If healers are needed for a match to start, a player is more likely to switch to a healer so they can play. Otherwise that same player would have to lvl a healing job all the way to 60, do all the story quests, and lvl the support classes to gain the abilities.

PvP ques should pull from all databases to maximize the number of players in the que.
• Premade groups pull from all languages. (This prevents “win swapping”, and you can’t talk to the other team anyway)
• Most players are fine with dealing with lag (if it’s not all the time) so long as they can re-que after and get an instant match.
• Frontlines and single que wolves den matches would still be based on language

Create something for players to do in this new area.
• Each Grand Company has its own area with vendors and training dummies.
• Have an open field in the middle with fates to fight over
• Fate rewards buffs (xp/marks) for use in the coming matches
• Could even have crafters build materials that npc’s would use to build bridges / gates to block enemy avenues to fates while making shortcuts for their troops.

More things to use the marks on.
• PvP only food (not the candy drops but real food a player would use) that would have a major stat, a minor stat, and a debuff reduction.
• PvP only potions (reduce the medicated timer to 1-2 min)
• PvP buffs (xp, marks)
• Mounts
• Minions
• PvP gear and weapons

(This one isn’t very likely but I’ll throw it up here.)
Make PvP a stand-alone game that is free to play.
• Other companies have adopted this business model to generate interest in the game. (Eve with Dust for example)
• Could set it up so that subscribers get content a full patch version early.
• New players are more likely to buy the full game after trying out the stand alone
• E-sport tournaments are growing more and more popular and having a free version of pvp is more likely to generate interest (League of Legends for example)
• Interest = Income

TL;DR Sync levels, reduce que times, something to do (pvp related) while waiting on ques, more things to buy.

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Originally Posted by Eul

Sorry off topic, but are you the person who visited my server? o_o

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I did visit shinryu, I didn't really talk to anyone though. I mostly hung out at this FC mansion that had the top PvPers and ran frontline.

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Originally Posted by Gryzz

I did visit shinryu, I didn't really talk to anyone though. I mostly hung out at this FC mansion that had the top PvPers and ran frontline.

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Do you remember me? I'm the highlander you've met at Mist MB lol. Glad I found you here :o

(If you didn't remember then sorry if I met wrong person :p )

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Originally Posted by Eul

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It was a while back. I can't remember for sure, but if it was a big roegadyn in a chocobo mask, that twas definitely me lol. Good to see you though, and I really miss those 1m ques on Shinryu.

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Originally Posted by Gryzz

It was a while back. I can't remember for sure, but if it was a big roegadyn in a chocobo mask, that twas definitely me lol. Good to see you though, and I really miss those 1m ques on Shinryu.

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Yup, definitely you. Before you meet me when I'm crafting lol. And joining Twin Adder right?

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Originally Posted by Nalien

No, that gear isn't what keeps dungeons alive, the tomestone rewards are, and that's what Wolf Marks should effectively be IMO...

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The concept is hard to translate however. Tomestones, especially the most recent one people actually care about, provide gear progression, something wolf marks used to via morale rating, but that only turned people away from PvP because where in PvE, playing with someone in better gear is beneficial to you, in PvP, you compete with them, thus making it detrimental. That's how we ended up with these awkward materias and pointless morale.

In addition, wolf marks are not weekly capped and as such, rewards for it can at best be comparable to esoteric tomes, the most recent uncapped tomestone. Otherwise PvP would be the only place where the progression gating can be circumvented, which is likely not in SEs interest. As such, you are left with outdated gear and fluff like minions, orchestrion rolls and furnishings, maybe a few crafting mats you can offer. Do you think that would suffice to make it the main reward? I'm fairly sceptical. Plus, as I said, I remain of the opinion that the main issue is the gameplay, not the rewards - intrinsic motivation beats extrinsic motivation any day. But maybe I just studied human resource management too long >_>

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Originally Posted by Eul

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Ahh! Okay, I remember you now. Yup, did fight for Twin Adders at the time. I'm back on Immortal Flames now. How do you like Feast? Playing PvP there is much different. Maybe I'll be back there again when the new FL drops.

IMO Feast is enjoyable here (But not if you met newbie healer) and RNG too. And I prefer Seal Rock more than Feast.

All I really want is the ability to 1v1 asap. And I don't want it to be instanced either, I want to be able to challenge someone to a 1v1 out in the world and just go at it.

This way I could train with my friends while I wait in queue for the feast or frontlines.

I don't care if its going to be unbalanced, its just for fun anyway. A zone where pvp is allowed and we could just go there to kill each other would be nice too :D

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Originally Posted by Gryzz

Ahh! Okay, I remember you now. Yup, did fight for Twin Adders at the time. I'm back on Immortal Flames now. How do you like Feast? Playing PvP there is much different. Maybe I'll be back there again when the new FL drops.

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Should join me on Balmung ;D Also check your Skype!

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Plus, as I said, I remain of the opinion that the main issue is the gameplay, not the rewards - intrinsic motivation beats extrinsic motivation any day. But maybe I just studied human resource management too long >_>

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Well, I'm not saying they shouldn't improve the gameplay of PvP, I just see that as a fairly big task, meanwhile improving Wolf Mark rewards should be fairly simple. Slap materia and most of what you can get with Poetics/Esoterics and Wolf Marks become a really great reward, more so considering you're getting Esoterics as well...