Raiding loot suggestion - Unrestricted Pages

The current state of raiding is that new content is expected to be cleared by world first groups in about 2-3 weeks. Progression groups are varying levels slower and clear and farm over the months until the next set of raids are released. To get armor from pages takes 6 to 8 pages which means 6 to 8 weeks of clears for one piece. Over those 6-8 weeks, you see 12-16 armor drops from chests and sometimes you get what you need from chests and have little to no use for pages. I have 17 A3S pages, what am I supposed to do with them? Also, once you complete the area for the week, most progression groups spend the rest of the week just hammering away at the next level, which can get very frustrating if you need the gear for progression.

So my suggestion is to keep the chests and chest restrictions as they are now, but give pages each clear. This way raid groups have two options, either work on progression in the new area or clear already cleared areas again for pages and more loot to help with progression. If not completely unrestricted, how about a daily reset so you can only get one page per day.

Here are some advantages to unrestricting pages or doing a daily lockout on pages. It would give us more incentive to raid more days (i.e. be more active in game) a week and to help other people clear. There would be more activity in party finder on the days people aren't with their statics giving the people without statics the chance to join a skilled group and clear. It's also more interesting for raiders who are stuck on one area. Rather than banging your head against a wall, you can go back for more gear and practice then make more attempts.

Some objections may be people gearing up and being finished with content too quickly. But if page drops are on a daily lockout, that's only one piece of gear per week from pages if you do it 6/7 days a week, so really, not that much. Another objection may be people selling clears. But again, if there is more incentive for raiders to clear outside statics, there are more opportunities to get pages without having to pay for a clear. With or without the change, selling won't go away.

So overall I think this is a good way to increase the raid quality of life without nerfing content and providing raiders with more content to do than just clear the previously cleared areas and spend the rest of the week banging your head against the next wall. All while encouraging a healthier raid party finder by motivating skilled (cleared) players to participate.

You do realize a lot of raiders can *only* raid 2-3, maybe 4 days in a week, and many can barely raid and cap tomes every week due to real life?

Honestly, this will only burn out those who can clear fast faster (instead of needing 2-3 months to get all their main gear for the world first groups, they need maybe 4-5 weeks), and make those who can't raid as often fall even further behind.

This would also force difficulty and DPS checks to increase for later turns, beyond what the "normal" difficulty spikes are to account for the extra gear.

If they limit it to one book a day, then it would take you 2-4 weeks to get one drop at 2-4 days a week. Not only that, but doing the prior raids will also give tomes so spending your raiding time going back would actually ease the burden on raiders. World first groups are clearing in less than 3 weeks, and Yoshida already said that was as they had expected. Right now we're time gated where we get our clears on Tuesday and spend the rest of our time banging our heads against a wall trying to get the next level with no other progression path.

Your idea seems novel on paper but you forgot to account for "Burn out" as well. The system is designed to create breaks to prevent burnout that comes with progression and grinding. Only a small percentage of progression players would actually the take time to do anything outside of their groups if your system was in place because if they can clear the turns clean they would just farm them get what they need and still be too busy or burnt to help others who may wipe and impede them from doing other content.

Your concept is built around the idea that Raiders have that time. Concerning your PF issue, I personally raid 4-5 days a week and the last thing I would want to do is join a PF that may waste my free time when I could just get the loot with my team and be done with it. For me there is no incentive to help people on a turn I have no problems clearing when I could be doing something less stressful or something else that piques my interest (crafting, gathering, relic, being social).

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Originally Posted by Animarelic

Your idea seems novel on paper but you forgot to account for "Burn out" as well. The system is designed to create breaks to prevent burnout that comes with progression and grinding.

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So something like this would be appealing to you? >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abE09-tqhoM

That was the system in 1.0 that was designed to prevent burnout and level the playing field between casual and hardcore players. It was universally hated and removed, instead we get the same type of lockout, only this time focused around gear which is the only way to progress once you're max level.

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Originally Posted by Aodh

It was universally hated and removed.

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It's funny how switching terminology gives the illusion that the system really changed so drastically.

This happened in WoW as well so instead of using the "Lowest" exp gain state as hitting a limit they changed it to make the normal exp curve sound like a bonus and the unrested state to be normal. They basically tuned the basic wording of the system to be more positive instead of negative but still function the same. The lack of a real progression in the leveling process masks this pretty well though it's a far lower curve than almost any MMO I've ever seen so even being in unrested state is a brisk adventure.

1.0 did however have a much larger curve so you could still see where the game "Walled" you to allow others to catch up once you ran out of rested exp.

Unless you kept the restriction on re-entering a turn you've already cleared (i.e. that you can only do it with someone in the party that has yet to clear it), this system would give absolutely no incentive for me to clear with people outside my immediate circle of friends and acquaintances. I know I for one would sooner just farm it with my raid static (or members from the other two raid statics in my FC) for all the pages we need, then go do more constructive things with my time.

I enjoy helping people learn content, but when you're talking about content that's as difficult as Savage the time investment is going to be well beyond what the average raider has available (or is willing to make available) to put in teaching complete strangers. The thing is, it also doesn't really make much sense to make something farmable and then restrict it that way, so yeah basically I'd end up just farming it with my static and other people that I'm 100% sure can just go in and one-shot the content. It'd be like Primal Focus all over again, but daily instead of weekly. Honestly, I think it works fine how it is. This way, teams that clear early don't just farm everything they need in a few weeks and then unsub till next raid cycle.

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Originally Posted by Aodh

So something like this would be appealing to you? >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abE09-tqhoM

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If it's that old stamina system video I don't need to see it nor is that what i'm trying to convey. That system affected the overall Game not just Raiding. Your system directly effects raiding which wouldn't have a major impact except on people who already raid. Like I said I'd be fine gathering pages with my team which i'm sure most people will do but it would do hardly anything to promote learning parties or PF when "Farming" is involved. Your method of farming pages is just that, not an incentive to help new or struggling players for a "chance" at a page when raid teams could just get them guaranteed.

Your approach still does nothing to fix the issue of "Time" which you keep overlooking. Your assumption that it will help people not clearing content is a bit of a stretch and would hardly impact the PF's. IF your idea was to be applied most PF's would bar anyone who doesn't have experience or kills Ala EX Primals because players aren't going to want to waste "time".

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Originally Posted by Jynx

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It's funny how switching terminology gives the illusion that the system really changed so drastically.

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The difference is more than terminology, since in the only system you couldn't progress without waiting as your EXP gain would go to 0. Now you can still gain EXP, you gain more if you wait but not nearly as much as if you kept playing. Right now, I cannot improve my character as I have to wait for Tuesday, although we'll be trying to down A7S tonight and maybe get something from there. So my only progression choice is to keep dying in A7S till we win. I would like another choice.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Unless you kept the restriction on re-entering a turn you've already cleared (i.e. that you can only do it with someone in the party that has yet to clear it), this system would give absolutely no incentive for me to clear with people outside my immediate circle of friends and acquaintances.

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Which would be more than your static most likely which would be successful then in terms of getting more people into raids, especially playing more with friends.

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Originally Posted by Aodh

The difference is more than terminology.

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Look they are always going to find some way to block your character progression it's just how they decide to dress it up.

1.0 was in flat EXP gains

2.0 Replaced a exp wall with tomestone and loot lockouts.

People don't want to be told they can't keep progressing. It's a primal thing look at how balls popular things like the hunt are where regardless of how hard/long the grind is as long as it gave the promise of progression without giving the player a ultimatum that blocked them from further progression. I just wish they would drop the smoke and mirrors act about hiding the grind and give us more engaging systems instead of the bland gear treadmill.

I'd rather be blocked in progression by the amount of choices I have than to be stone walled but that's just me.

Maybe have the restriction that you need at least 2 people that haven't 'cleared' that week to get pages.

Whatever the solution is, there's an important point here that the current lockout system is the number one problem with small server raiding. When you have a limited pool of willing and capable raiders, forcing them to commit to one and only one group makes life incredibly hard for the folk who lose at the game of musical chairs around the time an even patch hits, or for groups who lose a member somewhere along the way in progression.

Most to all of the known good players will have a group of some sort, and since subbing across groups is actively punished, there's nowhere to turn if you lose a member, just have someone out for a week, or need to build a group, other than the pool of random unknowns who have never been presented with anything harder than Chrysalis. There are good folk to be found there, but in the ensuing weeks you simply can't raid because no subs. This also makes it hard for groups that do have eight to kick a terrible member as soon as they should, leading to more attrition on top. And every time a player or group waves the white flag and transfers away from small server lockout hell, the situation gets that much worse for everyone else.

Yoshi's calculation that the small server exodus was caused by the difficulty of Gordias was well off the mark. Sure, there were groups stuck on it, but the real issue is the lockout. If subbing or re-running turns wasn't punished - even if it's not particularly rewarded - smaller servers could make do by building a raid community where groups help each other out without feeling like they're punishing members of one group or another.

I don't think a wacky change to the page system is necessarily the fix; something as simple as not-removing chests anymore would be a start, or just remove 1 chest for 5+ repeaters and zero otherwise. If SE wanted to be more aggressive they could always have 2 chests and add a VA-style "one drop from all of savage per week" thing, either keeping books as they are or upping the gear prices from them. Or any mix, match, in between, something. Even removing lockouts in odd patches a la 2.5 Final Coil would be a boon, and also fairly harmless so long as folk still need to clear one turn to unlock the next.

Personally I would love it if we could get pages every run, my static started late. Currently progress a6s but raiding has been rather a problem last 2 weeks.

Got my first item this week, now if I want the pieces I need just for my main job it will take me 18 weeks to gear up from 1 floor.

Considering how restricted we are with lore, it would be nice if I could gear up alt jobs aswell.

I'll helped several pfs with a5s clears, which offers me no reward. Outside of savage there's nothing really left to do anyway.

I wonder if maybe the first clear everyone gets a page, after that you have to roll on it. If you are clearing with somebody that hasn't cleared that week and you have, then that person gets a page and you get to roll on it against others that have cleared, or guarantee yourself a page if you're helping a 7/8 group. This would make it so that people are willing to pug and help teach, and get rewarded by it. And it would be a lot of work, not necessarily easily farmable. If a group wanted to farm pages they can, but it would take a clear for the first page, then 8 more clears for everyone to just get one page, and 25 in one week of a floor just to get 4 pages per member. For the harder floors with 8 pages that's 57 clears in a week. Not awful, but realistically these fights are difficult and long and most groups will not consistently clear that many times and will stick to 6-10 lockouts a week.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

Most to all of the known good players will have a group of some sort, and since subbing across groups is actively punished, there's nowhere to turn if you lose a member, just have someone out for a week, or need to build a group, other than the pool of random unknowns who have never been presented with anything harder than Chrysalis. There are good folk to be found there, but in the ensuing weeks you simply can't raid because no subs. This also makes it hard for groups that do have eight to kick a terrible member as soon as they should, leading to more attrition on top. And every time a player or group waves the white flag and transfers away from small server lockout hell, the situation gets that much worse for everyone else.

Yoshi's calculation that the small server exodus was caused by the difficulty of Gordias was well off the mark. Sure, there were groups stuck on it, but the real issue is the lockout. If subbing or re-running turns wasn't punished - even if it's not particularly rewarded - smaller servers could make do by building a raid community where groups help each other out without feeling like they're punishing members of one group or another.

I don't think a wacky change to the page system is necessarily the fix; something as simple as not-removing chests anymore would be a start, or just remove 1 chest for 5+ repeaters and zero otherwise. If SE wanted to be more aggressive they could always have 2 chests and add a VA-style "one drop from all of savage per week" thing, either keeping books as they are or upping the gear prices from them. Or any mix, match, in between, something. Even removing lockouts in odd patches a la 2.5 Final Coil would be a boon, and also fairly harmless so long as folk still need to clear one turn to unlock the next.

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If you could get 2 chests with 1 or 2 cleared people it would help a lot IMO especially on my server where trying to find (competent or any willing) people to fill up your group is seemingly impossible. If we could get some mix-n-match from other groups it would help a lot.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

Yoshi's calculation that the small server exodus was caused by the difficulty of Gordias was well off the mark. Sure, there were groups stuck on it, but the real issue is the lockout. If subbing or re-running turns wasn't punished - even if it's not particularly rewarded - smaller servers could make do by building a raid community where groups help each other out without feeling like they're punishing members of one group or another.

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The matter is how to address time and incentive. The exodus wasn't just caused by the difficulty of Gordias it was the lack of incentive to help players who weren't up to par. Even on smaller servers where the majority of the population doesn't raid, want to raid or are trying to get into it, even if you gave more loot options there's still the time and effort vs rewards. EX primals are a good example of how the player base will treat raiding even if they eased up the loot restrictions.

Players will still be judged based on experience meaning the same incentive still applies. The Devs probably figured even if they ease up on loot strict PF's will still be in place which will be even more intimidating to new players. Trying to make the content "Farmable" will only apply to people who already farm it just like EX Primals. I don't see the raid scene improving much because why join a PF in your spare time if you can just farm it and move on?

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Originally Posted by Animarelic

The matter is how to address time and incentive. The exodus wasn't just caused by the difficulty of Gordias it was the lack of incentive to help players who weren't up to par. Even on smaller servers where the majority of the population doesn't raid, want to raid or are trying to get into it, even if you gave more loot options there's still the time and effort vs rewards. EX primals are a good example of how the player base will treat raiding even if they eased up the loot restrictions.

Players will still be judged based on experience meaning the same incentive still applies. The Devs probably figured even if they ease up on loot strict PF's will still be in place which will be even more intimidating to new players. Trying to make the content "Farmable" will only apply to people who already farm it just like EX Primals. I don't see the raid scene improving much because why join a PF in your spare time if you can just farm it and move on?

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The PF pug scene is a whole other matter, and probably a lost cause on any smaller server for self-fulfilling prophecy reasons.

What I'm talking about is static attrition - groups that lose a member (or even just have one go on vacation for a week) just shouldn't be as immediately screwed as they are right now. It ought to be plausible to get by with subs for a bit until you find a promising permanent fill. Right now it's not - because most any known-decent player will have a group or be trying to build one (since the PF doesn't work), and people don't want to take chests away from their static-mates.

Farm-ability can be argued any which way, but at minimum I think helping other groups out should at least be an option that's available to people, as opposed to being taken straight off the table by the chest penalty. Would everyone always be rainbows and sunshine and give out their time like candy on Halloween? Of course not; but it's not like people don't exist that like to sub for fun, or as an occasional favor or such. They just aren't allowed to right now.

Yes so hardcore raiders can farm and get all their best in slots in less than a day.

This is a terrible idea.

it would also make the world first clears much less impressive, as they would just clear the first floor 12 or so times to get all the stuff they need and be way higher item level for the rest of it...

I dont think this would work out well. Ppl will get bored of raid even faster than they already r n i like my friends occupied so.i dont lose em.