DRK's train left the station: Dark Passenger is in or out?

We all know the correct opening which includes DP, since the lovely topic out there.

However! What is DRK supposed to do with DP after the opening, during the boss fight?
I was trying my strength on Burden of the Son Dummy trial and this is what i found out by myself:

Using DP without Blood Weapon extends the availability gap between DA+SE usage by one delirium rotation + significally lowers mana pool; if you like to ride on constant 20% max mana value it is a bit harder to use both DP and DA+CnS if CnS is going to be available soon at the same time.

DP is 150 potency. DA + SE - DL is 120 potency.
Numbers are saying it is a good deal, but i tried to make this trial in two ways:
1. Using DP asap when only mana allowed me. Trial has ended at 3%
2. Ignoring DP completely except opening. Trail has ended at 4%.

It might have been RNG, but i hope it weren't.

Weaving DP into rotation during boss fights after opening:
Board the train or leave on station?

The dummy fights are just 3 mins long, by doing 2 parses you dont really get any good result as the difference in critrate and the difference which skills critted make an insane difference in this short 3 minute window. Having a 40% critrate on low blow is not gonna net you the same dps as having a 40% critrate on your da'ed souleaters etc. Not using a 150 potency ogcd for 884mp is always gonna be a loss

I use DP with DA on cooldown in AoE situations, because when you have more than two mobs, DA+DP is the highest potency you can put out. It's off the GCD, and while it does take a lot of mana, it's generally worthwhile.

It's a little weird how it puts a potent blind on mobs, which acts against the efficacy of Blood Price, but I digress.

EDIT: I know who can help figure this out. How'd this go again?

*makes a circle of Great Swords* Eternal Dark Knight, by your name I summon you forth: SYZYGIAN!

Yes I'm a huge dork don't judge me.

EDIT 2: Reread the first post and realized that I completely missed the point, which is about when to use Dark Passenger on a single target (read: on a boss, or what you typically find in Savage raiding). I think it would ultimately boil down to how well you know an encounter and can plan around it. It's an oGCD attack, so it won't interrupt your rotational DPS at all, so I imagine it would boil down to knowing at what point(s) in a fight you'll be able to spare the MP for a little bit of extra kick, and learning the rhythm of the job in the encounter.

Use DP on cooldown. Priority is: DA+CnS > DP > DA+SE. If you're not getting hit with BP or using BW, then you're not gonna use DA+SE much (at all).

Edit: DP > DA+CnS > DA+SE better priority as pointed below.

^ The priority order is actually DP > DA+CnS > DA+SE, due to the massive swing in Mana that DA+CnS forces you into (cost of DA + you lose out on 1 charge of regen).

DP is your most efficient use of mana to deal damage. The difference between additional DA+SE and using DP is massive - you're seeing such "similar" results due to RNG, I can almost guarantee that.

Thnx guys for responses! The fact, that 3 min is too short for a good test stroke me like it was something unexpected lol :P, so yeah, i will get myself some black-market drug to get real parsing to do some normal dummy testing.

I'll also set my priorites as you advise. Let's make my main great again.

Topic is not closed, the more opinions, numbers and comments - the merrier! \o/

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Originally Posted by JackFross

^ The priority order is actually DP > DA+CnS > DA+SE, due to the massive swing in Mana that DA+CnS forces you into (cost of DA + you lose out on 1 charge of regen).

DP is your most efficient use of mana to deal damage. The difference between additional DA+SE and using DP is massive - you're seeing such "similar" results due to RNG, I can almost guarantee that.

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Ah, now that you point that out it makes sense. Forgot you can always fire off CnS without DA if you have to choose between DP or DACnS.

"However! What is DRK supposed to do with DP after the opening, during the boss fight?"

Use it?

Yup. I quess. >.>
Don't try to be cool.
Be cool and say more.

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Originally Posted by Yuni_Queen

Be cool and say more.

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More.

Does that make me a cool kid? Please tell me it makes me a cool kid.

In all seriousness, I'd think it's something you'd weave into your rotation when you know there isn't heavy damage coming for a few GCDs, where you know you'll have enough MP in time. Even if you don't DA it, it represents some extra potency, which is always nice - just make sure you'll have enough MP left over to DA the next cooldown you need to DA. I don't think I'd personally use it after the opener while I was still learning the fight, but I'd try to figure out where to weave it in for phases we'd gotten down, and once a fight is on farm.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

In all seriousness, I'd think it's something you'd weave into your rotation when you know there isn't heavy damage coming for a few GCDs, where you know you'll have enough MP in time. Even if you don't DA it, it represents some extra potency, which is always nice - just make sure you'll have enough MP left over to DA the next cooldown you need to DA. I don't think I'd personally use it after the opener while I was still learning the fight, but I'd try to figure out where to weave it in for phases we'd gotten down, and once a fight is on farm.

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It should be used on cooldown in all situations always You should be skipping DA+SE if you're skipping any mana expense. I keep saying this and people keep saying things like this instead and it's frustrating, to say the least. You should never DA+DP in single-target, but you should be using DP literally whenever it's available. Fullstop. There's no ifs or buts in there - always means always.

On another note - you should rarely (if ever) be using DA for defense in the current content. DA+DM was excellent in Gordias (though still completely unnecessary in the majority of circumstances) for stuff like Hypercompressed Plasma, Drainage, and Hydrothermal Missile. In Midas, magic damage is primarily of the raid-damage sort - and the magic damage is few and far between (Single/Double Buster/green orbs). Very -very- rarely should you be holding Mana to burn on defense. It's almost never useful and absolutely never necessary outside of that rare situation where you would die without it - a situation that should literally never happen if the healers are on their game. Nothing hits hard enough if mechanics are handled properly.

Here's your list of oGCDs by potency:

Salted Earth: 780n pot/min
DA DP: 500n pot/min
DA C+S: 450 pot/min
Reprisal: 420 pot/min*
Plunge: 400 pot/min
DP: 300n pot/min
LB: 240 pot/min*

*These two skills are parry dependent. The listed values show the maximum value for reprisal and the minimum for low blow. Low Blow may have a higher priority under the effect of DD.

Factoring in the MP costs is simpler. You always have the option of choosing Del over DASE on a given combo, so long as you're not about to max out on MP. As you get closer to the end, of course, you will want to make your MP expenditure tighter with DASE so as to not have unused MP when you finish.

DASE gives you 120 potency for one DA. As long as your potency gain/DA of a given oGCD exceeds that of DASE, it's a dps gain to use the skill. Both DP and DA C+S are always a dps gain for their MP cost. DA DP only starts to become a dps gain for its MP cost at 2 mobs or more. Removing DA DP from the list (as well as reprisal, because your parry rate is 0 on the dummy), your priority list in single target by potency becomes:

Salted Earth: 780 pot/min
DA C+S: 450 pot/min
Plunge: 400 pot/min
DP: 300 pot/min
LB: 240 pot/min

Once you've established that an oGCD is a dps gain for its cost over DASE, it doesn't matter how MP efficient it is relative to the others. Your relative priority is based on the potency per minute. If you see C+S coming off CD, you should float up your MP with Del combos. You can always reinvest the extra MP at a later point with more DA SE combos, but you only have one shot per minute to have DA ready as soon as C+S comes off CD.

Digression: MP expenditure/gains, and why the above principles don't necessarily apply to AoE tanking.

SS: +0.5 DA
C+S: +0.5 DA

DA DP: -1.5 DA
DA C+S: -1 DA
DP: -0.5 DA
DASE: -1 DA

Grit: -1.5 DA
Darkside: -0.5 DA

Although I said that MP efficiency doesn't really matter, outside of BP and BW, you only get +4.5 DA worth of MP per minute (24 gcds = 8 SS + 1 C+S). Some of this has to go into maintaining Darkside.

In single target, you're only using DA on C+S, so you're only obliged to effectively spend 2.5 DA per minute. In multiple target situations, however, if you want to use DA on both C+S and DP, it costs you a whopping 4.5 DA per minute. This forces you to maintain your Darkside upkeep with only BP and BW. When you add other expenditures (AD, inability to use BP in tank stance, etc.) you can see how it is impractical to use DA on both.

Although DA DP is a dps gain at 2+ mobs, a single use is only 57% and 86% the potency of DA C+S for the same cost (1.5 DA) at 2 and 3 mobs respectively. Fight-specific considerations aside, you should not use DA DP at the expense of DA C+S when attacking 2-3 mobs. At 4+ mobs, the potency of a single use DA DP exceeds that of DA C+S, and the skill actually becomes efficient. At this point you can use a regular C+S, returning your obligatory MP costs down to 3.5 DA per minute (same as single target).

A lot of the single target rotation comes down to anticipating how much MP you'll need when a given oGCD comes off CD, and making sure that you refresh Scourge appropriately. If you just focus on troubleshooting those two things, it should be straightforward at this point to clear the SSS dummy for A8S without pots or food.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

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A lot of what you said it spot-on, but you're neglecting something everyone always neglects. DA+CnS has a cost of 1.5 DA, not 1.

When comparing Mana efficiency and potency gains, you need to compare Mana-Cost-Skill against Alternative-Skill - that is, compare the skill you would spend Mana on to what you would otherwise do, were you to NOT spend that Mana there.

I'll normalize my Mana on a basis of 1 Syphon Strike. 1 DA = 2 SS.

This is why we compare DA+SE to Delirium, and not to Souleater. If you don't Dark Arts your Souleater, you should be using Delirium - hence +120 potency for 2 SS.
If you don't cast Dark Passenger, you would instead do nothing, hence +150 potency for 1 SS.
If you don't Dark Arts your Carve and Spit, you would instead use Carve and Spit without DA, hence +350 potency for 3 SS.

Averaging these out as Potency per Syphon Strike:
DA+SE = 120/2 = 60
DP = 150/1 = 150
DA+CaS = 350/3 = 116.7

Ergo, the priority is /always/ DP > DA+CnS > DA+SE.

You should prioritize keeping DP on cooldown.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Averaging these out as Potency per Syphon Strike:
DA+SE = 120/2 = 60
DP = 150/1 = 150
DA+CaS = 350/3 = 116.7

Ergo, the priority is /always/ DP > DA+CnS > DA+SE.

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Actually, although I list the cost of DA C+S at 1 DA, I do factor it in as 1.5 DA when making comparisons with DP and DA DP (because C+S is listed as +0.5 DA).

Comparing oGCD skills is a bit different than comparing GCD skills. You're not trying maximize MP efficiency. You're trying to maximize your DPS. Once you've established that an oGCD is more MP efficient in a situation than DA SE, the potency per unit time takes precedence. It doesn't matter that DP is more MP efficient than DA C+S. DA C+S does more potency per unit time than DP in single target.

To illustrate this further, let's do a comparison between two skills in potency per syphon strike (pot/ss):
DP = 150n/1 = 150n pot/ss
DA DP = 250n/3 = 83n pot/ss

DP will always be more MP efficient than DA DP, irrespective of the number of mobs present. Based on your reasoning, we would never use DA DP. So why is this not the case?

Let's look at this a bit more closely. When we spend DA on DP, we're spending 1 DA to gain 100n potency. In other words, the cost is 50n pot/ss. With just one mob, this is less MP efficient than DASE (60 pot/ss). With two or more mobs, this becomes more efficient. This is why we can DA DP in multi-target situations.

tl;dr: When comparing two oGCDs, compare their potency/minute. When comparing an oGCD to DASE, compare their MP efficiencies. As long as an oGCD is more MP efficient than DASE, using it gives a dps gain. Once you've established that using an oGCD gives a dps gain, the one with the highest potency/minute takes priority, just like every other job/class in the game.

Always use DP. Only forgo it if you mass pull and plan on going bold with DP blind and DADD shenanigans.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

DP blind and DADD shenanigans.

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I love doing that. "miss miss miss miss parry dodge miss miss."

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Originally Posted by JackFross

I'll normalize my Mana on a basis of 1 Syphon Strike. 1 DA = 2 SS.

This is why we compare DA+SE to Delirium, and not to Souleater. If you don't Dark Arts your Souleater, you should be using Delirium - hence +120 potency for 2 SS.
If you don't cast Dark Passenger, you would instead do nothing, hence +150 potency for 1 SS.
If you don't Dark Arts your Carve and Spit, you would instead use Carve and Spit without DA, hence +350 potency for 3 SS.

Averaging these out as Potency per Syphon Strike:
DA+SE = 120/2 = 60
DP = 150/1 = 150
DA+CaS = 350/3 = 116.7

Ergo, the priority is /always/ DP > DA+CnS > DA+SE.

You should prioritize keeping DP on cooldown.

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is it worth using delirium if you have a monk in your group or no
what do you do if you have a monk in the group

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

is it worth using delirium if you have a monk in your group or no
what do you do if you have a monk in the group

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Delirium is always worth using. It is a DRKs highest damage combo outside of DASE. I personally weave it in every other DASE combo...might not be optimal, but it is most definitely worth using

#pocketMaths
dp
150 potency for 1/2 mana cost of dark arts
da souleater
140 potency for 1 mana cost of dark arts

Obviously dp is way better both potency wise and mana wise (so obviously potency/mana wise as well)

The above is ignoring physical and magical potency diff

on single targets ive always just hit dp on cd without DA i really didnt feel the blind effect was worth the cost of 1/3 of my mana pool when fighting a boss, but as a cooldown i feel like popping it whenever available was better than not using it at all, same for salted earth really i pop when available