Crowd control categories and diminishing returns

Please correct me if my assumptions are wrong...

As it stands, stuns, silences, and sleeps are considered separate categories for the sake of diminishing returns. In other words, getting stunned once does not also increase the diminishing return counter for the other types of crowd control, which means you can still be slept and silenced at their full durations.

The question I have is, is it fair to interrupt casting with sleep after the diminishing returns for stuns and silence are both fully in place? I ask because smart players are now spamming sleep while the healer target is getting focused in order to interrupt spells, leaving it basically impossible for the target to act before the entire suite of crowd control chain is done. This is worsened by the fact that equanimity does not help with it. This gives WHM an absurd offensive advantage over the other two healers.

Should sleep share a diminishing return timer with one of the other two types of crowd control?

You're not wrong Rice. It's bad all over with these individual DR timers when 1 class might have 3-4 of them.

It shouldn't share a DR, but that's more reason to why a single class shouldn't have access to more than 1 of them in the first place (looking at BLM specifically), especially when they aren't on cooldowns.

Sleep would be fine if the casters had to wait for a cooldown like classess with Bind, but they can cast it one after another effectively breaking a team apart while someone gets focused and that is where the problem lies imo. Also feels like Silence (which would keep this problem and freecasting in check like stuns) is a one trick pony since most of the skills with it have 1s duration, the only useful one is the MCH head graze since its 2s long and synergizes mid-burst on a healer to stop them from getting a heal off.

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Originally Posted by xTysonx

Sleep would be fine if the casters had to wait for a cooldown like classess with Bind, but they can cast it one after another effectively breaking a team apart while someone gets focused and that is where the problem lies imo. Also feels like Silence (which would keep this problem and freecasting in check like stuns) is a one trick pony since most of the skills with it have 1s duration, the only useful one is the MCH head graze since its 2s long and synergizes mid-burst on a healer to stop them from getting a heal off.

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Monks can spam silence with arm of the destroyer. Perfect Balance+Somersalt = Healer out of action.

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Originally Posted by xxczx

Monks can spam silence with arm of the destroyer. Perfect Balance+Somersalt = Healer out of action.

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You must be the first then, because I've never seen a monk just spam destroyer on a healer on Primal. My point was moreso towards the PLD/NIN/BRD/MCH silences that have cds and not being as rewarding as other CCs at 1s with DR in effect.

I wouldn't be opposed to either sleep being on a shared diminishing returns with the other CCs or having a longer CD, considering how ridiculous things like PLD, WHM, BLM + w/e compositions can be.

My only other suggestion would be to give Purify a mini-Fetter Ward property of a couple seconds so people aren't immediately thrown back into more CC for people anticipating it.

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Originally Posted by xxczx

Monks can spam silence with arm of the destroyer. Perfect Balance+Somersalt = Healer out of action.

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Which goes back to somersault getting an unneeded buff. Honestly I still don't understand why it has a 40 second cooldown.

EVERY CC SHOULD BE ON THE SAME DIMINISHING RETURNS LIKE EVERY PVP GAME EVER.

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Originally Posted by xTysonx

You must be the first then, because I've never seen a monk just spam destroyer on a healer on Primal. My point was moreso towards the PLD/NIN/BRD/MCH silences that have cds and not being as rewarding as other CCs at 1s with DR in effect.

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I haven't tried it but there is a monk on Chaos do it and it's actually an effective strat on WHMs since silence doesn't resist. AST/SCHs not so much.

Just one thing to note is that bind and stun are instant (sometimes off gcd), you can't LOS them, sleep require a cast .I feel like the crowd control is pretty strong, but that what make some classes actually pretty good.

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Originally Posted by Fayo

Just one thing to note is that bind and stun are instant (sometimes off gcd), you can't LOS them, sleep require a cast .I feel like the crowd control is pretty strong, but that what make some classes actually pretty good.

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The problem is moreso that Sleep can be repeatedly casted while most stuns and binds (except smn) have cooldowns. Even with DR sleeping one to two people back to back with the dps on one target destroys a team, giving WHM and BLM a strong advantage

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Originally Posted by xxczx

Monks can spam silence with arm of the destroyer. Perfect Balance+Somersalt = Healer out of action.

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That really doesn't do anything against instant casts though, as it only silences for 1 second while their GCD is at least 2 seconds long, giving large windows in which to cast between silences. At most it delays the cast by up to a second if the silence hits just as the healer's GCD is finishing or is at ready. In all other cases it does absolutely nothing.

Ok stop this nonsense pls. The last thing the BLM needs is a nerf. With less cc the class would be enterly useless because its very hard to burst against a team of good players. Only people who never played BLM can think that his CC is op. The thruth is that the BLM is much weaker in dealing dmg ( again: against good players) than the other dps classes and therefore he needs the cc skills.

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Originally Posted by Ricebowl

Should sleep share a diminishing return timer with one of the other two types of crowd control?

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nah its fine the way it is. The healers using 3 gcds to also sleep you which means your dps aren't pressuring enough. If i face a team that has decent to good dps, i cant just sit there and free cast sleeps all i want. I need to pre cast cures on the target they are focusing or i risk blowing nice cooldowns like bene which is needed for a more clutch moment such as the one you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Slib

nah its fine the way it is. The healers using 3 gcds to also sleep you which means your dps aren't pressuring enough. If i face a team that has decent to good dps, i cant just sit there and free cast sleeps all i want. I need to pre cast cures on the target they are focusing or i risk blowing nice cooldowns like bene which is needed for a more clutch moment such as the one you are talking about.

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Yes on a class by class basis it might seem fine. But when you have a team comprised of PLD/BLM/WHM you start to notice how silly long you can remove someone from a fight which is only made easier with your teammates additional cc

It's the worst when I get slept 3 times, then stunned 3 times, then silenced and knockback when I just want to heal the other guy that's being focus'd down! ;-; Then I get called a bad healer because I spent much of the match unable to do anything. Purify has a long cooldown and it can only remove one of these, and I usually use it on the full swing or I am toast.

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Originally Posted by DonnieD

Ok stop this nonsense pls. The last thing the BLM needs is a nerf. With less cc the class would be enterly useless because its very hard to burst against a team of good players. Only people who never played BLM can think that his CC is op. The thruth is that the BLM is much weaker in dealing dmg ( again: against good players) than the other dps classes and therefore he needs the cc skills.

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I don't find blm to be a big issue. The issue is getting CC rolled by a team that has everything at its disposal. Do you really think you should be able to negate a player for an entire match? that's pretty silly when you think about it , and that is most of what is being said.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

I don't find blm to be a big issue. The issue is getting CC rolled by a team that has everything at its disposal. Do you really think you should be able to negate a player for an entire match? that's pretty silly when you think about it , and that is most of what is being said.

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Again the blm needs the cc to counter the superior dps of the enemy team. A BLM can never ever deliver so constant high dmg than the other dps and therefore he needs to stop the enemy dps from doing so and deliver burst when its possible. You probably dont know how easy it is to shut down the blm dps completly.

Matches in which i dont CC that much as i normally do, nearly all end in a pretty clear loss.I get your point but if you want to take cc from the blm you definetly have to buff his dps skills.

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Originally Posted by DonnieD

Again the blm needs the cc to counter the superior dps of the enemy team. A BLM can never ever deliver so constant high dmg than the other dps and therefore he needs to stop the enemy dps from doing so and deliver burst when its possible. You probably dont know how easy it is to shut down the blm dps completly.

Matches in which i dont CC that much as i normally do, nearly all end in a pretty clear loss.I get your point but if you want to take cc from the blm you definetly have to buff his dps skills.

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It's the duration of CC ,and the number at your disposal that's in question. If you think blm needs a dps buff clearly you've never been on the receiving end.

Aye, with phantom dart, ley lines up, and fire 4(? I don't play blm, but I *think* that's what they use, something that hits hard anyway) they can do a lot of damage. I know I have been on the receiving end of a 4+k crit from a blm ;-; while the rest of the moves still doing hefty damage. I would LoS the blm, but then my dps needs healing and they stand in less than ideal places. I often see a particular blm do 190k damage in a match, which is getting up there in the numbers.