Bard Too Bursty?

At the start of a solo 4v4 match while having defense kit buff on:

http://i.imgur.com/X6aU3fi.png

I main brd in Feast and our burst is literally one of the only things actually going for us dps wise there. Our sustained damage is pretty lol. We have a silence, bind, knockback and basically an instant cast esuna which also prevents the next negative status effect as well.

Ignoring a well-played brd in Feast is a bad idea. You'd be surprised how many people just ignore me because they think "lol a lame brd," and that is just how I like it. :p

My opening burst has been foiled by a fast skilled healer many times. Unless you have def buff, a CD and a good healer, brd burst is an almost guaranteed KO.

To clarify, a guaranteed ~6500 damage in PVP from a single attack is absolutely ridiculous.

"Barrage" has no pre-requisites and will flat out TRIPLE the potency of Empyreal Arrow (220). This leads to 660 potency from a single attack, the most powerful in the game if I'm not mistaken.

In comparison, Machinist's PVP ability "Between the Eyes" (which was just nerfed from 180 > 150 potency) requires CC for the maximum possible 450 potency. If you're able to pull that off it's still significantly less than the hassle-free and guaranteed 660 potency of Barrage + Empyreal Arrow.

Technically speaking, you could achieve a similar effect with a Gauss Round and Single target Ricochet (200+300), the major difference being you have the potential to crict all 3 hits unlike barrage (which will never crict), follow up with a buffed stun gun and bte (180+ 150), all skills being ogcd

I see no problem with either

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Originally Posted by Chilla

To clarify, a guaranteed ~6500 damage in PVP from a single attack is absolutely ridiculous.

"Barrage" has no pre-requisites and will flat out TRIPLE the potency of Empyreal Arrow (220). This leads to 660 potency from a single attack, the most powerful in the game if I'm not mistaken.

In comparison, Machinist's PVP ability "Between the Eyes" (which was just nerfed from 180 > 150 potency) requires CC for the maximum possible 450 potency. If you're able to pull that off it's still significantly less than the hassle-free and guaranteed 660 potency of Barrage + Empyreal Arrow.

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But don't forget that MCH has SEVERAL other abilities to pair with BTE to increase their 1-GCD burst. MCH burst is far higher, instantly cast, and is more reliable.

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Originally Posted by xTysonx

Technically speaking, you could achieve a similar effect with a Gauss Round and Single target Ricochet (220+300), the major difference being you have the potential to crict all 3 shots unlike barrage (which will never crict), follow up with a buffed stun gun and bte (180+ 150), all skills being ogcd

I see no problem with either

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You will very rarely pull off a single target Ricochet in Feast. There is almost always another enemy player that the damage will spread to.

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Originally Posted by Renault

But don't forget that MCH has SEVERAL other abilities to pair with BTE to increase their 1-GCD burst. MCH burst is far higher, instantly cast, and is more reliable.

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For Bard, simply weave that guaranteed 660 potency Empyreal Arrow with an instant off-GCD 350 potency Sidewinder and 240 potency Far Shot (recently buffed) and they'll be dead in 2 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Chilla

You will very rarely pull off a single target Ricochet in Feast. There is almost always another enemy player that the damage will spread to.

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The dmg fallout for muti-target is not too bad, but the fact remains all 3 shots (and any nearby enemies) have the potential to crict in comparison to a flat 660. Assuming any good mch/brd starts with straight/hot shot respectively, the mch has a guaranteed 5% dmg increase and a pet that does 80pot shots on the target that was hot shotted (in this case the bard) so that is significant head start, not to mention you can pull off 4 ogcds (gauss round, rico, bind/stun gun and bte respectively) faster than 2 gcds (dots) and 2 ogcds (one that cant crict and another requires both dots to be on for 250pot)

I'm not saying there cant be hard hitting bards, I'm just saying on paper a mch is like Renault said, faster more devastating burst

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Originally Posted by Chilla

To clarify, a guaranteed ~6500 damage in PVP from a single attack is absolutely ridiculous.

"Barrage" has no pre-requisites and will flat out TRIPLE the potency of Empyreal Arrow (220). This leads to 660 potency from a single attack, the most powerful in the game if I'm not mistaken.

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Actually Barrage+Empyreal Arrow does have a pre-req: Wanderer's Minuet. At the start of a match, you should be having your purify ready for anything; that includes BRD's Sidewinder which is 1/4 of their total burst, meaning they can't kill you if they can't apply Sidewinder. Yes, a Barraged Empyreal Arrow does a lot of dmg. But after that, all a BRD gets to do is tickle you. So if you've negated Sidewinder's dmg, Recuperated (Physical Tank/DPS class) Empyreal Arrow's dmg, you're golden. Dealing with a BRD's is the same as dealing with a SMN's burst but so much easier to counter because it takes time to set up.

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Originally Posted by Chilla

"Barrage" has no pre-requisites

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1. Wanderers Minuet to utilize Empyreal Arrow
2. Cast time with Empyreal Arrow
3. 10 second time limit to pull it off

It can be seen coming, where as Between the Eyes is more unpredictable and almost instantaneous to use with Foot Graze.

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Originally Posted by nickx

1. Wanderers Minuet to utilize Empyreal Arrow
2. Cast time with Empyreal Arrow
3. 10 second time limit to pull it off

It can be seen coming, where as Between the Eyes is more unpredictable and almost instantaneous to use with Foot Graze.

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How at all can Empyreal Arrow be seen coming?

With Between the Eyes you know it's coming if you get CC'd by the Machinist. I've been against players like Straigus Reyist that are able to completely shut down my Between the Eyes.

In regards to "no pre-requisites" I meant that the target doesn't have to be afflicted by a certain action in order for you to use it. Wanderers Minuet should be up anyway just like Gauss Barrel.

My intention was not to turn this discussion into "Bard vs. Machinist" but rather to point out that 6500 damage from a single attack is insane and I know many fellow PVPers who agree with this.

MCH was just a comparison of how normal that is dmg, you might as well complain about blm chaining fire IVs, smn getting off a burst without dots and other combo that can knock a good chunk of hp off in a few hits

If your bte is predictable then you should weave it your wildfire rotation (which does contribute to wildfire itself)

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Originally Posted by xTysonx

MCH was just a comparison of how normal that is dmg, you might as well complain about blm chaining fire IVs, smn getting off a burst without dots and other combo that can knock a good chunk of hp off in a few hits

If your bte is predictable then you should weave it your wildfire rotation (which does contribute to wildfire itself)

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Fire IV has a 3 second cast time and will not hit for 6500 damage in PVP.

There is no other single attack in the game that will hit for 6500 damage in PVP.

Like I said earlier for Bard, simply weave that guaranteed 660 potency Empyreal Arrow with an instant off-GCD 350 potency Sidewinder and instant 240 potency Far Shot (recently buffed) and they'll be dead.

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Originally Posted by Chilla

How at all can Empyreal Arrow be seen coming?

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Barrage buff, followed by a cast. Bard mobility is also hindered afterwards.

Between is less damage but still much easier and faster to utilize. Machinist mobility is not as hindered with ammo.

Friendly reminder that this is a team game. Any burst can be stopped.

Yes I'd also like to clarify (since we're all communicating by text) that I don't want to come across as arguing, just debating the points.

The PVP community in this game is so tight knit it's awesome. I love all you guys.

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Originally Posted by Chilla

Trust me I would not be at 600 rating on day 2 in solo 4v4 if I didn't know what I was doing.

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You'd be surprised. You don't have to be good to get that, just play a lot, and get lucky. Not meaning you, but there are a lot of silvers I've played with that are... Yeah. Terrible.

PVP in Feast is about maximing your burst at correct moments in the game. Many other jobs functions similarly with main burst DMG like SMN, MCH, and BLM nasty fire IV.
It sounds fair in my opinion because its not always 100% and its not something you can just spam and its very survivable if other defensive mechanics are timed correctly along with LoS and other minor variables.

MCH gets nerfed in burst and people start talking about bard.
/s

In all seriousness,


Your screenshot shows consistent damage through out. If you didn't have any form of damage shields or mitigation (every healer should at least put up stinkskin on their party), you're just asking to get dropped on the spot by any form of ranged burst

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Originally Posted by Chilla

In comparison, Machinist's PVP ability "Between the Eyes" (which was just nerfed from 180 > 150 potency) requires CC for the maximum possible 450 potency. If you're able to pull that off it's still significantly less than the hassle-free and guaranteed 660 potency of Barrage + Empyreal Arrow.

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You also need to take into account other abilties. Farshot, bloodletter and side winder specifically, as well as gauss round and ricochet for MCH.

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Originally Posted by xTysonx

Technically speaking, you could achieve a similar effect with a Gauss Round and Single target Ricochet (200+300), the major difference being you have the potential to crict all 3 hits unlike barrage (which will never crict), follow up with a buffed stun gun and bte (180+ 150), all skills being ogcd

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Directly comparing, MCH has weaker overall potency despite being all able to crit. As mentioned above, if you're gonna compare gauss round+rico+BtE+Stun gun (not that I would want to use this for damage in consideration with the latency), you should also take sidewinder, farshot and bloodletter into consideration, as well as misery's end if we're counting the 20% threshold.

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Originally Posted by Renault

But don't forget that MCH has SEVERAL other abilities to pair with BTE to increase their 1-GCD burst. MCH burst is far higher, instantly cast, and is more reliable.

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MCH burst has different contingencies to be as effective; you lose ricochet damage if they're grouped (including egis and faires), stun gun is a use of stun resistance (which is incredibly valuable on healers, especially against ones that know how to fight back burst) not to mention the unreliability of it in a latency-environment. So you only really have bind, which is fine and all but it also gets stopped by fetter ward. Assuming you want to get the first hit in, chances are it won't be on their melee even if they have attack buff.

And in both replies, honestly if we're doing a direct comparison to BtE and empyreal barrage, a BtE critting is roughly 675-700 potency assuming a 50~55% increase, it's not miles ahead of a 660 hit. That aside, every other oGCD they're using is capable of criting just as uch as each other, except BRD also has internal release and straight shot whereas MCH only has hot shot.

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Originally Posted by nickx

1. Wanderers Minuet to utilize Empyreal Arrow
2. Cast time with Empyreal Arrow
3. 10 second time limit to pull it off

It can be seen coming, where as Between the Eyes is more unpredictable and almost instantaneous to use with Foot Graze.

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It';s a 1.5 cast time, and in consideration with how much of the walls they haven taken out, this shouldn't be that big of a problem. On top of that, MCH also has to use weaponskills prior to set up their burst as much as BRD does (in regards to hot shot, slug shot to force a proc, and reassemble). Both types of burst can be seen coming because they're often paired with cooldowns like HE and raging strikes. MCH has the same window of opportunity to pull off a stronger burst because of the cleaner shot timer.

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Originally Posted by Chilla

My intention was not to turn this discussion into "Bard vs. Machinist" but rather to point out that 6500 damage from a single attack is insane and I know many fellow PVPers who agree with this.

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My rebuttal is that all ranged jobs (excluding BLM to an extent) is capable of doing that instantaneous burst. And honestly, it's frequently the only thing they can bring to the table. You can say that for MCH and SMN (before getting into utilities and CC, and honestly BRD has some pretty strong points in that area compared to the aforementioned two).

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Originally Posted by nickx

Barrage buff, followed by a cast. Bard mobility is also hindered afterwards.

Between is less damage but still much easier and faster to utilize. Machinist mobility is not as hindered with ammo.

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Honestly with the change to caster interrupts a while back, I wouldn't say mobility is that big of an advantage anymore. Even with WM/GB, you won't be pushing the damage threshold with a single GCD and your sustain damage will sitll be pitifully low compared to a BLM or melee for healer pressure.

I'm not going to say BRD is overpowered or not. But I am going to say that as of this most recent patch I fear Ranged DPS far more than I fear melees. If you agree with that kind of design, then all the power to you. I don't play DPS but I feel a top-level Melee will do more than a top-level ranged, but on average I fear BRD more than NIN/MNK/DRG.

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Originally Posted by Jubez187

I'm not going to say BRD is overpowered or not. But I am going to say that as of this most recent patch I fear Ranged DPS far more than I fear melees. If you agree with that kind of design, then all the power to you. I don't play DPS but I feel a top-level Melee will do more than a top-level ranged, but on average I fear BRD more than NIN/MNK/DRG.

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I guess all the awesome bards are on the other data centers cause none on primal strike fear like this. Over here the scary ranged are certain MCH and BLM. None of the BRD here stick with me in terms of remembering their name for being exceptionally dangerous.

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Originally Posted by Jubez187

I'm not going to say BRD is overpowered or not. But I am going to say that as of this most recent patch I fear Ranged DPS far more than I fear melees. If you agree with that kind of design, then all the power to you. I don't play DPS but I feel a top-level Melee will do more than a top-level ranged, but on average I fear BRD more than NIN/MNK/DRG.

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Well in something like feast, you can't really compare what a ranged job can do over a melee job, considering you can't take a BRD or any other ranged over a melee in any case. They have the burst, but lack any resemblance of a lockdown or relible caster pressure through sustained dps, and especially the lack of a melee LB.

Never underestimate the power of lb. That is an significant advantage meele's have over ranged.

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Originally Posted by DonnieD

Never underestimate the power of lb. That is an significant advantage meele's have over ranged.

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I don't know about that. As much as people fight on bridges, I can hit the entire group of four with mine quite often. Sometimes leads to a double, or even triple kill, if one of the first deaths is the healer.

People realize that MCH was OP. So they nerf them.
People ARE NOW REALIZING that BRD is OP. Hoping for a NERF. Whats next? A DRG nerf?
Please guys blame the player. Not the class.

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Originally Posted by Razzii

People realize that MCH was OP. So they nerf them.
People ARE NOW REALIZING that BRD is OP. Hoping for a NERF. Whats next? A DRG nerf?
Please guys blame the player. Not the class.

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Idk I guess there arent many awesome BRDs on primal or I havent run into em yet cause they dont seem overpowered to me. I'm already sad they nerfed duration of our slow and skewer on DRG.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

Idk I guess there arent many awesome BRDs on primal or I havent run into em yet cause they dont seem overpowered to me. I'm already sad they nerfed duration of our slow and skewer on DRG.

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You haven't run into Nahtaivel yet? Dude does some work on our data center.

There's nothing you can do about that bard burst when the enemy has a brd+tank combo and the healer is stunlocked/silenced, then knockbacked. If the bard bursts during this time, someone is def dead. If it's me, then expect everyone else to die right after. Easy win for them, GG no Re.

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Originally Posted by SaveTheSunF1R3x

You haven't run into Nahtaivel yet? Dude does some work on our data center.

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He always used to run War when I faced him but I finally did run into him as BRD tonight yeah. He's pretty good indeed.

Omg, I keep my team mates at full hp, I make sure the dots are cleaned off them, I disable the bard, and the bard burst is still an assured KO. It's bloody stupid. It's gotten to the point I win every match there *isn't* a bard on the enemy team, and lose every time there is one. FFS.